Great Lakes

crawford9700

Filing Flight Plan
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Oct 21, 2015
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Display name:
Chris
I start ground school with Great Lakes Airlines on the 3rd of November for their Beech 1900D. Just wondering if anyone has any experience with this airline or aircraft, and can give me some pointers and help for training! And if you have any horror stories about Great Lakes, don't tell me! I know I won't be making that much, and I'll probably have a terrible schedule. But, I'll be getting a bunch of multi-turbine time, with no autopilot or GPS (helps make you a more proficient pilot :wink2:) so that's all that matters to me!

Thanks,
Chris
 
Congratulations !



I think.
 
Try and find the smartest other trainee and lean on him/her for help/guidance... Great Lakes is a great place to start out, many a Legacy Captain has started there... Huge experience, v respected, best of luck!
 
I've flown with a ton of GL guys. They all look back with fond memories but are glad to be gone. They all seemed good sticks too...

Enjoy and gratz.
 
Totally agree, Great Lakes is like basic training for the Army. You make great friends and experience, but when its over you exhale as a stronger man/soldier!
 
FWIW, most folks ask these questions before the interview. But, since you have already accepted the job, I think you'll find that it is like Captain described. A stepping stone. Enjoy the ride.
 
Thanks for all of the comments, guys! I appreciate it. Definitely looking forward to finally getting my career on the move.
 
It is a starting point. I don't think they take the first officers pants away at the start of the flight and give them back when the flight is over anymore...

Get your time in and move on.
 
I have heard that lots of FOs on reserve due to shortage of captains. Once you hold a line you will fly a lot. Too bad about the long contract in case you hate it.
 
I have heard that lots of FOs on reserve due to shortage of captains. Once you hold a line you will fly a lot. Too bad about the long contract in case you hate it.

The shortage of Captains is true at most 135s these days. As you say, it's tough on FOs sitting reserve for far more hours than their guarantee each month. There are better ways to get 1500 hrs.

I don't know the length or $$ amount assigned to GL's training contract, but in general, training contracts suck.
 
It is 15 months and 8k I believe. Non pro-rated. Thats close to what it is but it's honestly just a guess from what the FOs told.
 
Good luck. I hope it works well for you. A friend just finished 1900 training in AK with Ravn. I can see if he has anything to suggest/recommend.
 
Nothing builds character more than landing a Beech 1900 in a blizzard in Huron, SD :D

I'm pretty sure landing in FZFG at Riverton tops that but I could be wrong...I watched'em come and go one day while I was waiting out the weather. I was in awe.

I've also watched'em land half way down the runway at Laramie on a CAVU but windy day. Not so much awe on that one.
 
One thing i noticed is that they don't pay you while in training for new hires. That would be a big "I think not " for me , if im going through their training program they should be paying you. Good luck to you none the less.
 
The 1900 is a very easy airplane to fly. While I've never flown a 1900D, the C model was super easy. Just stay ahead of the plane, do what they tell you in training and keep yourself from being the guy that is the weakest in class, you'll be fine.
 
I have heard Republic Airlines, RJET, might go bankrupt in the near term...
 
I was hearing that 15 months ago. They seem to survive somehow.


Hell, we've all heard it since the 90s. Mess up (Mesa), Air Winnie (Wiconsin), Great Mistakes (GL)... They all have their nicknames and come and go.

Always the same routes out here in no man's land, and stuff like the matching funds goofiness mentioned in my thread about KPUB.

Sometimes they fly, sometimes they're bankrupt. Names always come back.

Lots of people get their start at them and move on.

Enjoy flying the D. I remember when they were first showing up -- and people were all excited to fly them and not have to duck, to avoid head injuries, to get past the floor hump, if they had to get to the back of the aircraft.
 
I've been reading posts that date back 5+ years or so about GLA going under soon, but it still hasn't happened yet. I'm hoping I'm just able to keep my job. I'm here just for flight time and experience, I don't plan to make a long term career with this company!
 
I've noticed that most of the predictions of regionals going under tend to be voiced by those who want them to go under as a result of unpleasant work experiences.

IOW, they probably won't go out of business, but you probably won't want to stay there long term.
 
I've noticed that most of the predictions of regionals going under tend to be voiced by those who want them to go under as a result of unpleasant work experiences.

My background is as an investor. I just did well betting on RJET before they sealed their recent TA.

For GLUX, I have no idea why they keep getting approved for more financing, but they seem to. They have a market cap of $2.5M and something like $20M in debt.
 
For GLUX, I have no idea why they keep getting approved for more financing, but they seem to. They have a market cap of $2.5M and something like $20M in debt.


I haven't looked.

Usually It's because some large chunk of the financing is government backed with a guarantee to make sure the lenders are made whole.

How is their debt structured?
 
I think GL survives on "essential air service" destinations, and low pay to employees.
 
I think GL survives on "essential air service" destinations, and low pay to employees.

They can't even keep those contracts. By changing the planes from 19 to 9 seats, they've driven the enplanement costs so high that other airlines are able to undercut them on the contracts (which are typically 2 year contracts). Additionally, their reliability is so bad, that local governments are supporting anyone but GLA.
 
Keep us posted Crawford, I think a few people on here would be interested in hearing about your experience.


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They can't even keep those contracts. By changing the planes from 19 to 9 seats, they've driven the enplanement costs so high that other airlines are able to undercut them on the contracts (which are typically 2 year contracts). Additionally, their reliability is so bad, that local governments are supporting anyone but GLA.


No one is competing with them to rural destinations around here. Where are you seeing this local government backlash? I'm curious more than anything.

The only carrier that's sized right to even attempt it would be Skywest and they're too smart to play that losing game.

Air Winnie isn't gonna do it. They have their areas and they don't appear to be moving in on any GL turf out here anywhere other than the usual higher profit routes they've always flown against them, like winter ski town stuff.

I'll admit I don't look at the whole country on this stuff, but where have you seen a local government kick out GL for another carrier?

The GL route map hasn't changed much around here since they took over what Continental Express abandoned in the early 2000s and then Mesa flew and abandoned and flew and abandoned up against COEX and then later by themselves as they went down.

GL just slowly ate all that stuff up and hasn't had a serious rival to most of those cities around here, in over a decade.

Interestingly in the interview that's floating around out there with the head of Rocky Mtn Airways well after he sold out to COEX in the 90s, he clearly states that the routes they flew were unfixably unprofitable after deregulation and thus why he sold. That hasn't really changed in the intervening three decades. Just different companies that keep trying it thinking they can make it so.

The flip to 9 passengers clearly shows the problem. You can't get any economy of scale at that size. You also can't make a twin turboprop operate cheaply enough at that headcount to make a profit without subsidies.

Plus the flying public doesn't really like turboprops and wants an RJ. No way you can do some of these routes with an RJ and make it profitable. Some of these towns simply don't have the passenger count to make anything work without a subsidy and there won't be any competition ever at their airports. The only direct competitor is driving four hours (maximum) out of a larger airport and sometimes much less.

Tough biz, small towns and air travel. I wouldnt want to be responsible for making it work out on a balance sheet. Wouldn't take much to tip over the apple cart.
 
I'll admit I don't look at the whole country on this stuff, but where have you seen a local government kick out GL for another carrier?

The local government doesn't kick them out, but they get to comment on the EAS contracts which are typically 2 year contracts. They lost their California flying to 9 seat operators, (Visalia was a big one, complaining about the reliability of ZK) . They lost some of their Arizona flying to 9 seat operators. They've lost flying (not so recently) to 9 seat carriers in the midwest.

Until they stop the 135 charade, and get the planes back to 19 seats, the end is near. When they have to bid a 1900 operating costs versus a PC12 or 208 or 402, they are going to get killed.
 
The local government doesn't kick them out, but they get to comment on the EAS contracts which are typically 2 year contracts. They lost their California flying to 9 seat operators, (Visalia was a big one, complaining about the reliability of ZK) . They lost some of their Arizona flying to 9 seat operators. They've lost flying (not so recently) to 9 seat carriers in the midwest.



Until they stop the 135 charade, and get the planes back to 19 seats, the end is near. When they have to bid a 1900 operating costs versus a PC12 or 208 or 402, they are going to get killed.


So in a few isolated higher passenger density areas than around here it seems... Interesting.

PC12, the average passenger will probably get on. 208 or 402 taxis up at the passenger terminal, there's a significant number of people who won't fly that route again. The passengers in the Lower 48 are pretty spoiled by RJs and bankrupt operators. And they complain loudly about those.
 
So in a few isolated higher passenger density areas than around here it seems... Interesting.

PC12, the average passenger will probably get on. 208 or 402 taxis up at the passenger terminal, there's a significant number of people who won't fly that route again. The passengers in the Lower 48 are pretty spoiled by RJs and bankrupt operators. And they complain loudly about those.

I can tell you they lost Laramie and pax counts went up. When Skywest brought the 200 to Laramie Pax counts went up again. Its happening. Boutique, which has a strong presence in DEN should start taking away EAS just like they did down here in AZ.
 
Sheesh... I'm not an expert on this stuff but I figure Joe Q Public would see a single engine prop airplane and poo poo it. the general public definitely sees jet over prop, but not so much turboprop over recip-prop.
 
So in a few isolated higher passenger density areas than around here it seems... Interesting.

PC12, the average passenger will probably get on. 208 or 402 taxis up at the passenger terminal, there's a significant number of people who won't fly that route again. The passengers in the Lower 48 are pretty spoiled by RJs and bankrupt operators. And they complain loudly about those.

You've never been to the Northeast, have you? Or Montana? Or the Caribbean? Cape Air makes a bucket of money running those 402's they have, even on non-EAS flying in the Northeast.

Even in the midwest, they've been able to develop some EAS stations into locations where they provide more than just the EAS flights, at a profit.
 
You've never been to the Northeast, have you? Or Montana? Or the Caribbean? Cape Air makes a bucket of money running those 402's they have, even on non-EAS flying in the Northeast.



Even in the midwest, they've been able to develop some EAS stations into locations where they provide more than just the EAS flights, at a profit.


Caribbean and northeast I get it. Montana? Really? Interesting.

I was only explaining there's no competition to GL around here, didn't really say anything about anywhere else. The stuff hubbed out of DEN is a pretty big chunk of their route map. Never seen any government folks unhappy to see them on the ramp.
 
Caribbean and northeast I get it. Montana? Really? Interesting.

I was only explaining there's no competition to GL around here, didn't really say anything about anywhere else. The stuff hubbed out of DEN is a pretty big chunk of their route map. Never seen any government folks unhappy to see them on the ramp.

Have you seen how many planes just sit there on the ramp at DIA. It look like a boneyard. They don't offer anything for the passengers that boutique air can't other than a second engine. And Boutique 1st yr captain pay is 65K or so. The PC 12 will run the 1900 out of business one EAS route at a time.
 
Have you seen how many planes just sit there on the ramp at DIA. It look like a boneyard. They don't offer anything for the passengers that boutique air can't other than a second engine. And Boutique 1st yr captain pay is 65K or so. The PC 12 will run the 1900 out of business one EAS route at a time.


Could be. I haven't got any dog in the fight. Just an observer.
 
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