GPS on used aircraft.

[cowman]

Looking at more used airpanes... my current favorite bird is the Piper Archer, although subject to change I think this might be the 'the one'.

One requirement I had set for myself way back and my CFI agreed on this was to have a garmin gns 430/better gps installed. The thought generally being that I'd want one and it would be cheaper to buy it installed than add-on later.

But...

I don't even have my PPL yet... hoping by fall or winter this year though. I'll probably be waiting a while and building some hours before even starting an instrument rating too so that might take a while. And for VFR flight some handheld unit would probably be fine.

Then I took a look at some information on the new GTN 650/750 units. The 430/530 really look dated next to them. The 430 is certainly the standard now and I'm sure it will be around and serviceable for many years to come. However, I'm wondering if 5 or 10 years down the line if I decide to trade-up if the 430 would now sort of be the "old" gps that nobody is really looking for.

So then I wonder.. maybe I should just concentrate on just getting a really solid VFR Archer and not worry about the panel so much now. Then 2 or 3 years down the road get a panel with a gtn 750 and everything else done the way I'd want it. I imagine that will run $15-20k depending on the variables but I'm wondering if maybe with long term resale and purchase price today all factored in it might be worth all that to get a panel the way I want it instead of buying someone else's.

And of course there's always the chance before then I'll decide I don't need to be IFR or that I need a bigger/faster airplane. So, maybe I should take a second look at all the archers for sale I dismissed out of hand because they didn't have a 430 in the panel?

 

[rbridges]

it will always be cheaper to buy a plane the way you want it vs. paying for it yourself. With labor, a 430WAAS install is probably around $9K with a used unit. Vref value is around 4K when you sell it.

I use a 430W in my plane, and I'm very happy with it. I'm sure I'd be blown away with the newer Garmin units, though. With them being so new, they're probably going to be harder to find in planes that are for sale--who would do a major upgrade to their panel knowing they're selling it in a year?

IMO, I agree with trying to find a plane with a 430 already in it, but it wouldn't be a deal breaker at all. You can always add it later. The problem with buying a used plane is that you're trying to find the perfect combination of engine time, interior condition, panel and price. It's hard to find that exact combo for you.

Buying a VFR only panel is fine, but if you decide to pursue an instrument rating, you'll be glad you have an IFR GPS such as the 430. I learned a lot more about my GPS when I got my instrument rating. Also, I wouldn't get too hung up on trying to guess what's current in 5-10 years. It's like computers and cell phones; there will always be something better and you'll spend a fortune trying to keep the newest stuff.

 

[cowman]

The problem with buying a used plane is that you're trying to find the perfect combination of engine time, interior condition, panel and price. It's hard to find that exact combo for you.

Tell me about it.

Thought I'd found one recently, but a friend looked at, took some pictures... had a crack in the tail cover and they said it looked like it had been beat on by the sun a lot.

*sigh*

 

[Morne]

Who said you need panel mounted GPS to do IFR? Use a /A bird for your instrument training. After that the bird you finally step up to with whiz-bang GPS will be a piece of cake by comparison.

 

[Tom-D]

It's a common misconception that once equipment is installed it is not worth as much as when it was on the shelf.

Buyers do believe that they should get some thing for free.

 

[JHW]

If this is an airplane you are going to keep, then buy the best airframe you can find. Everything else: engine, avionics, paint, interior, are just attachments you can and will change anyway.

OTOH an archer probably ISN'T an airplane you will keep long term, it's a stepping stone. So get one close enough to what you want that you can force yourself to abstain from too many upgrades.

 

[gismo]

It's a common misconception that once equipment is installed it is not worth as much as when it was on the shelf.

Buyers do believe that they should get some thing for free.

While I pretty much agree with your second sentence, the typical poor return on almost any "investment" in airplane upgrades is not a misconception, it's the way the market usually works (there are exceptions).

The way I look at the cost for any upgrade is that about half the cost may be returned to me if I sell the airplane before said "upgrade" is upgraded again and the other half represents the eventual cost to me for having the new equipment.

 

[cowman]

Seems like its the installation cost that you really lose and then a little bit on the value of the upgrade its self.

Interesting seeing everyone's different philosophies and opinions. My real problem is inexperience and not knowing what will work for me and what won't yet.... and usually the only fix for that problem is to make a best judgement, jump in, and hope it works out....and learn when it doesn't.

 

[Tom-D]

While I pretty much agree with your second sentence, the typical poor return on almost any "investment" in airplane upgrades is not a misconception, it's the way the market usually works (there are exceptions).

The way I look at the cost for any upgrade is that about half the cost may be returned to me if I sell the airplane before said "upgrade" is upgraded again and the other half represents the eventual cost to me for having the new equipment.

That belief is why you don't see more folks restoring aircraft. buyers won't pay for the new equipment.

 

[rbridges]

Seems like its the installation cost that you really lose and then a little bit on the value of the upgrade its self.

that's true. installation cost isn't anything to sneeze at, either. It's a lot of labor, and that can not be recouped when you change units down the road.

 

[poadeleted21]

That belief is why you don't see more folks restoring aircraft. buyers won't pay for the new equipment.

Buyers won't pay for new equipment installed how the seller wanted to install it. Just like most car/truck mods and upgrades don't add up either. I didn't find one plane that had the panel in it I would have designed, I found one I could live with, I don't pay retail for that.

 

[gismo]

Looking at more used airpanes... my current favorite bird is the Piper Archer, although subject to change I think this might be the 'the one'.

One requirement I had set for myself way back and my CFI agreed on this was to have a garmin gns 430/better gps installed. The thought generally being that I'd want one and it would be cheaper to buy it installed than add-on later.

But...

I don't even have my PPL yet... hoping by fall or winter this year though. I'll probably be waiting a while and building some hours before even starting an instrument rating too so that might take a while. And for VFR flight some handheld unit would probably be fine.

Then I took a look at some information on the new GTN 650/750 units. The 430/530 really look dated next to them. The 430 is certainly the standard now and I'm sure it will be around and serviceable for many years to come. However, I'm wondering if 5 or 10 years down the line if I decide to trade-up if the 430 would now sort of be the "old" gps that nobody is really looking for.

So then I wonder.. maybe I should just concentrate on just getting a really solid VFR Archer and not worry about the panel so much now. Then 2 or 3 years down the road get a panel with a gtn 750 and everything else done the way I'd want it. I imagine that will run $15-20k depending on the variables but I'm wondering if maybe with long term resale and purchase price today all factored in it might be worth all that to get a panel the way I want it instead of buying someone else's.

And of course there's always the chance before then I'll decide I don't need to be IFR or that I need a bigger/faster airplane. So, maybe I should take a second look at all the archers for sale I dismissed out of hand because they didn't have a 430 in the panel?

Some folks say you should "buy your last plane first" and you'll hear a lot say you should buy a plane that's already equipped the way you want.

But there's another school of thought that says most pilots really don't know what they will eventually want in an airplane and/or equipment and it seems to me you likely fit in that category.

If you already knew, for instance, that your main usage was a 500 mile XC several times a year with 3 passengers and a weeks worth of baggage, you'd know that and IR was essential and you'd be looking for something with a good payload and well equipped for IFR trips (autopilot, IFR GPS, onboard WX and maybe deice, etc). Or maybe you're certain that XC will be rare and most of your flights will involve puttering around the local area with one or two friends in which case it would be hard to justify the cost and effort of maintaining an IR so you might as well skip that and get a simpler, slower airplane with basic VFR avionics.

But few pilots that are part way through their PPL training know any of that with enough certainty to guide them to an airplane purchase. In that case you'd be better off with one of these choices:

1) Plan to rent for a few years and try out several different airplanes to see what turns you on. While renting when you want to own seems like throwing money away, it's likely to cost you far less than buying the wrong plane right away unless it retains most of it's value while you own it (see #3 below).

2) Join a good flying club and postpone your first aircraft purchase for a few years. The best ones have multiple airplanes that are well maintained and a guaranteed reasonable exit strategy. Such a club combines many of the sole ownership advantages with few of the disadvantages along with a social aspect that's generally very beneficial to a new pilot. You can also learn a lot about what kind of airplane suits your needs best and what's really involved in aircraft ownership. Many clubs also offer IR training at a significantly reduced cost compared to a flight school. Going the club route is very likely to save you a large chunk of change compared to renting or sole ownership, and that's money you can put towards your own airplane later when you have a better idea of what you want, need, and can afford.

3) If you have the financial resources and expect to fly at least 100-200 hrs per year, owning your own airplane might make sense in the short term. But as I mentioned earlier it's rather unlikely you will know enough about your wants, needs, and resources to choose one that will be "right" for more than a few years. As a result the best choice will be one that is purchased at a fair price and is likely to have a high enough demand that you can sell it with very little loss or even some gain. Try to get one with an engine that's not going to end up within a few hundred hours of TBO by the time you sell and is equipped sufficiently well to meet your needs for a while. In your case I wouldn't worry about an autopilot or IFR GPS but would look for something adequate for IR training (transponder, dual VOR, single GS, DG with heading bug, and intercom). It should be fixed gear and have a cruise speed in the 120-140 KTAS range so that XC in the plane beats driving time significantly. It should have enough useful load that you can have 3-4 hours of fuel plus 2 passengers and some baggage and if you have a family it ought to be able to carry all of them plus 25-30 lbs of bags per person and still bring enough fuel for 3 hours (allowing a 2 hr flight with 1hr reserve). You should avoid anything "unusual" including most homebuilts (a well made RV would be OK if you only need 2 seats) no matter how good a deal you find as they can be hard to sell

 

[taters]

Might not want to rule out something like a garmin 155 or 300 Xl hooked up to a panel mounted 696, these look clean and youl have /G legality wx and charts ..lots of pipers have the small garmin or king units installed....don't necessarily throw away a great plane just because it doesn't have a 430,

My partner and I put. New garmin 430 in our Cherokee 180 , 10 thousand bucks all said and done...ouch . ...we just bought a new /a 160 a few weeks ago that's a blank pallet, we will be going the garmin 300 Xl with a panel mounted garmin Aura route , not even 2 grand.

 

[cowman]

As far as renting/flying clubs go, unless I'm willing to drive an hour and a half out of my way, my options are a Cessna 172 that's in high demand as a trainer or another cessna 172 in a flying club with several folks already bought in.

But, I want to be able to take long XC trips and have the AC tied up for days or even a week at a time. Factor in that I'll be limited to days with good weather and I don't really think rentals/clubs fit that mission as well.

 

[hindsight2020]

Might not want to rule out something like a garmin 155 or 300 Xl hooked up to a panel mounted 696, these look clean and youl have /G legality wx and charts ..lots of pipers have the small garmin or king units installed....don't necessarily throw away a great plane just because it doesn't have a 430,

My partner and I put. New garmin 430 in our Cherokee 180 , 10 thousand bucks all said and done...ouch . ...we just bought a new /a 160 a few weeks ago that's a blank pallet, we will be going the garmin 300 Xl with a panel mounted garmin Aura route , not even 2 grand.

Indeed. Most people end up underutilizing a garmin /G capability. Im a working stiff, so leaving that much money on the table for /G is not a good economy. As such, I have found that the older units are a great deal for the legal ability of filing /G and going direct. Filing 420NM legs direct last year on an KLN89B saved me a good amount of money and time. So much was the utility gained out of that 'undesirable unit' that I had it stipulated I get the unit and components back with the sale of the aircraft. I fully intend on installing it on my next aircraft unless it already comes with a comparable unit or better.

The counterargument is the old units database will be shut down any day now and thus you'll get stuck with no /G and having to spring up to the garmin rat race. I'm willing to cross that bridge when i get to it. In the meantime, it's a no brainer for me. Installations of 430s are still circa 10K. Installing and certifying an 89B with the hardware already bought and paid for runs me less than 3K. This cheapo pilot is happy happy happy

 

[taters]

Indeed. Most people end up underutilizing a garmin /G capability. Im a working stiff, so leaving that much money on the table for /G is not a good economy. As such, I have found that the older units are a great deal for the legal ability of filing /G and going direct. Filing 420NM legs direct last year on an KLN89B saved me a good amount of money and time. So much was the utility gained out of that 'undesirable unit' that I had it stipulated I get the unit and components back with the sale of the aircraft. I fully intend on installing it on my next aircraft unless it already comes with a comparable unit or better.

The counterargument is the old units database will be shut down any day now and thus you'll get stuck with no /G and having to spring up to the garmin rat race. I'm willing to cross that bridge when i get to it. In the meantime, it's a no brainer for me. Installations of 430s are still circa 10K. Installing and certifying an 89B with the hardware already bought and paid for runs me less than 3K. This cheapo pilot is happy happy happy

plus you can have it "cross talk" to almost any panel mounted handheld or MFD...really the as long as you have a mothership GPS it can be hooked to any pretty cheapish moving map

 

[PilotAlan]

I have found that the older units are a great deal for the legal ability of filing /G and going direct.
...
Installing and certifying an 89B with the hardware already bought and paid for runs me less than 3K. This cheapo pilot is happy happy happy

Yup. I have a GX55 in the panel and a KX-155 w/GS. The plan is to certify the GX55 for enroute and terminal ops, use the KX-155 for approaches.

 

[JHW]

Might not want to rule out something like a garmin 155 or 300 Xl hooked up to a panel mounted 696

ditto, except a 696 takes up too much space and i went even cheaper on the ifr box. Mine is a straight-300 non-map. What do i need a map for on that box when the 396 has a map right below it? My upgrade to /G cost me $2900 all-in. Don't forget about the nav head and annunciator when you're pricing everything out

 

[wabower]

I have a 430W in the panel and a 696 with WX and traffic on a suction-cup mount hanging on the side of the windshield.

Guess which one is used on every flight and which is an after-thought?