GPS Databases out of date

AggieMike88

AggieMike88

Touchdown! Greaser!
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The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
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KDTO (Denton Enterprise)
My club's C182 has a CNX80 (Garmin 480) mounted in the panel. As I continue to learn how to use it and how to access all of the features and info, I'm really liking it.

But the database screen shows the current card data expired Feb 28, 2012.

Do we need to add the "for VFR Use" placard until the database is brought current?
 
No. And according to some, you can still use it for some IFR ops if you verify the data is still current.
 
AggieMike88 said:
My club's C182 has a CNX80 (Garmin 480) mounted in the panel. As I continue to learn how to use it and how to access all of the features and info, I'm really liking it.

But the database screen shows the current card data expired Feb 28, 2012.

Do we need to add the "for VFR Use" placard until the database is brought current?
Click to expand...

No.

To use the GNS480 with an expired database, you have to follow the AFMS restrictions.

For enroute or terminal operations, you have to verify the waypoint by comparing it with current data from approach charts, low altitude enroute charts, or the AFD.

To fly a VOR or ILS, you don't need the database to be current unless you are using the GPS for substitution purposes. For RNAV or GPS approaches, you need to verify the effective date of the approach chart is Feb 28, 2012 or earlier. The AeroNav charts may have two dates (the latest format) or a single date (the old format). One date is a Julian Date (YYDDD) and is the effective date of the last change to the approach. The other date is a Procedure Amendment Date and is in human form (example 28Feb12). The Procedure Amendment date may be older than the Julian date and if so, it may be used for comparison. The Julian date changes anytime the chart is updated (for example a frequency change), but the Procedure Amendment Date is only updated if the procedure in the database is changed.
 
Stop. The wings will fold in the next takeoff if you hit D> and enter any waypoint. ;)

You're fine dude. Go fly. No placard needed. You can even use it IFR for enroute and approach work provided the verification outlined above by John. Hell of alot cheaper than updating every 28 days, but that's for another day.
 
Only thing you really can't do with an expired database is show up for an instrument practical test.
 
Ron Levy said:
Only thing you really can't do with an expired database is show up for an instrument practical test.
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Not trying to be difficult, but theorectically(assuming there is not a FAR preventing this) if you showed up with paper approach plates, and the low IFR chart, and VFR sectional, as well as the AF/D or with an EFB, and only did ILS, VOR, LOC, and vectors, how could he fail you for not being up to date.
 
douglas393 said:
Not trying to be difficult, but theorectically(assuming there is not a FAR preventing this) if you showed up with paper approach plates, and the low IFR chart, and VFR sectional, as well as the AF/D or with an EFB, and only did ILS, VOR, LOC, and vectors, how could he fail you for not being up to date.
Click to expand...

What if the examiner chooses to have you do a GPS approach?
 
douglas393 said:
Not trying to be difficult, but theorectically(assuming there is not a FAR preventing this) if you showed up with paper approach plates, and the low IFR chart, and VFR sectional, as well as the AF/D or with an EFB, and only did ILS, VOR, LOC, and vectors,
Click to expand...
Not an option.
If the practical test is conducted in the aircraft, and the aircraft has an
operable and properly installed GPS, the examiner will require and the​
applicant must demonstrate GPS approach proficiency.
Click to expand...
how could he fail you for not being up to date.
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Not sure if the examiner can fail you, but s/he is required by 14 CFR 61.45(b) and FAA Order 8900.2 to decline to conduct the test because you have not provided an aircraft which meets the requirements of the IR PTS.
GPS equipment must be instrument flight rules (IFR) certified and contain the current database.
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http://www.faa.gov/training_testing/testing/airmen/test_standards/media/faa-s-8081-4e.pdf
 
What are we talking about here, maybe $32 a month to keep it up to date.
 
EppyGA said:
What if the examiner chooses to have you do a GPS approach?
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See above -- if you have an operable IFR approach GPS the examiner is required to have you do a GPS approach. And please, don't try hanging an INOP sticker on the GPS unless it's really inop. You really won't like what happens if you get caught doing that.
 
Ron Levy said:
See above -- if you have an operable IFR approach GPS the examiner is required to have you do a GPS approach. And please, don't try hanging an INOP sticker on the GPS unless it's really inop. You really won't like what happens if you get caught doing that.
Click to expand...

Ron, I was trying to back up what you were saying without quoting a bunch of stuff. ;)

My database gets updated regularly.
 
EppyGA said:
What if the examiner chooses to have you do a GPS approach?
Click to expand...
You cannot. However, if you take the test with an IFR certified non GPS plane you cannot do it either, and if I remember correctly the test requires three different types of approaches and thus if you do a VOR, LOC, and ILS you satisfy that requirement. The instrument rating existed long before GPS, and RNAV approaches, and I would assume there are still planes out there the are IFR certified but do not have GPS capability.
 
Ron Levy said:
See above -- if you have an operable IFR approach GPS the examiner is required to have you do a GPS approach. And please, don't try hanging an INOP sticker on the GPS unless it's really inop. You really won't like what happens if you get caught doing that.
Click to expand...

real simple..disconnect the antenna cable and fn make it inoperable.
 
So much work and BS to keep from updating the database.
 
douglas393 said:
You cannot. However, if you take the test with an IFR certified non GPS plane you cannot do it either, and if I remember correctly the test requires three different types of approaches and thus if you do a VOR, LOC, and ILS you satisfy that requirement. The instrument rating existed long before GPS, and RNAV approaches, and I would assume there are still planes out there the are IFR certified but do not have GPS capability.
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Not sure exactly what you're saying, but per the PTS excerpts I quoted above, if you have an operable IFR approach GPS installed, the examiner is required to have you do a GPS approach -- no choice on the part of either examiner or applicant.
 
Ron Levy said:
Now that is grounds for a Notice of Disapproval.
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Why? "I'm sorry, I am unable to proceed with that as the database for the GPS renders it's functions unusable." If one has the gear to fulfill the requirements of the ride, why should that be disqualifying? Not that I argue against updating lol.
 
taters said:
real simple..disconnect the antenna cable and fn make it inoperable.
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Uh-huh. Nice try.

NOTE:​
​
​
​
​
If any avionics/navigation unit, including GPS, in the aircraft
used for the practical test is placarded inoperative, the examiner will
review the maintenance log to verify that the discrepancy has been​

properly documented.
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If they find an entry saying "antenna cable disconnected," you're going home without a new ticket. And if you get caught with that cable disconnected without any supporting entry, you're looking at the potentional for really serious problems.
 
Ron Levy said:
Not sure exactly what you're saying, but per the PTS excerpts I quoted above, if you have an operable IFR approach GPS installed, the examiner is required to have you do a GPS approach -- no choice on the part of either examiner or applicant.
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What I am saying is that having GPS is not a requirement for having a plane that is IF certified, and so if you take your checkride in a plane that is IFR certified but does not have a GPS that is IFR certified(such as no GPS or a portable) you still can take the ride and pass, but cannot do a GPS approach.
 
Henning said:
Why? "I'm sorry, I am unable to proceed with that as the database for the GPS renders it's functions unusable." If one has the gear to fulfill the requirements of the ride, why should that be disqualifying? Not that I argue against updating lol.
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If you show up with an expired database, the examiner will see that upon power-up (yes, they check) and the ride doesn't even start. Then you get to deal with whatever financial penalty the examiner wishes to exact for wasting his/her time. OTOH, if the ride does start and when the examiner directs you to do a GPS approach, you tell the examiner you are unable to do a GPS approach, you are unsatisfactory in Area VI and you get a Notice of Disapproval.
 
douglas393 said:
What I am saying is that having GPS is not a requirement for having a plane that is IF certified, and so if you take your checkride in a plane that is IFR certified but does not have a GPS that is IFR certified(such as no GPS or a portable) you still can take the ride and pass,
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Correct.

but cannot do a GPS approach.
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Well, maybe you can, and maybe you can't, but it won't be an issue in that plane on that test day. And if you can't, I sure hope you get some training on them before you jump in a GPS-equipped plane and try one for real.
 
Ron Levy said:
Uh-huh. Nice try.
If they find an entry saying "antenna cable disconnected," you're going home without a new ticket. And if you get caught with that cable disconnected without any supporting entry, you're looking at the potentional for really serious problems.
Click to expand...


Why would anyone make that entry? the only entry after the check-ride is over should be from maintenance..."troubleshot GPS and found antenna cable disconnected, reattached cable OPS check OK.

What if I had the GPS removed by maint. from the tray to be "sent in" for a waas upgrade etc

get my drift...you can play this game all day long
 
Last edited:
taters said:
Why would anyone make that entry? the only entry after the check-ride is over should be from maintenance..."troubleshot GPS and found antenna cable disconnected, reattached cable OPS check OK.

What if I had the GPS removed by maint. from the tray to be "sent in" for a waas upgrade etc

get my drift...you can play this game all day long
Click to expand...

Very simple. Place INOP sticker on unit, make logbook entry " GPS xxxxx deactivated due to erroneous information during flight. Not suitable for navigation."
 
taters said:
Why would anyone make that entry?
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Because if you don't, the examiner is supposed to refuse to do the ride with a piece of equipment marked as INOP but not deactivated or removed as required by 91.213. If it is deactivated/removed, then per Part 43, the work must be logged.

the only entry after the check-ride is over should be from maintenance..."troubleshot GPS and found antenna cable disconnected, reattached cable OPS check OK.
Click to expand...
If the ride starts with no INOP sticker, and the GPS doesn't work, the ride should be discontinued upon discovering that.

What if I had the GPS removed by maint. from the tray to be "sent in" for a waas upgrade etc
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Then there will be a log entry for that removal and all will be hunky-dory. But any way you look at it, if there is an IFR approach GPS in the panel and there is no log entry for its deactivation, then the ride doesn't happen.

get my drift...you can play this game all day long
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You can play any game you want, but if the GPS is in the panel and it doesn't work, there must be a log entry for its deactivation or you don't fly the ride.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Very simple. Place INOP sticker on unit, make logbook entry " GPS xxxxx deactivated due to erroneous information during flight. Not suitable for navigation."
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Just remember to log how it was deactivated (see 43.9(a)(1) -- "A description (or reference to data acceptable to the Administrator) of work performed") and make sure it is signed by an authorized repairman/mechanic (disconnecting antennas is not within the scope of preventive maintenance a pilot can do him/herself) (43.5, 43.7, and section (c) of Part 43 Appendix A).
 
Ron Levy said:
Just remember to log how it was deactivated (see 43.9(a)(1) -- "A description (or reference to data acceptable to the Administrator) of work performed") and make sure it is signed by an authorized repairman/mechanic (disconnecting antennas is not within the scope of preventive maintenance a pilot can do him/herself) (43.5, 43.7, and section (c) of Part 43 Appendix A).
Click to expand...

I was doing a generalization of a type of write up, and after years of being an A&P with an Inspection Authorization I'm aware of how to log discrepancies and sign offs. :rolleyes2:
 
RotorAndWing said:
I was doing a generalization of a type of write up, and after years of being an A&P with an Inspection Authorization I'm aware of how to log discrepancies and sign offs. :rolleyes2:
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I'm sure you are, but taters' posts suggested he did not when he indicated he would deactivate the GPS without an entry and only make an entry after the flight.
 
Ron Levy said:
I'm sure you are, but taters' posts suggested he did not when he indicated he would deactivate the GPS without an entry and only make an entry after the flight.
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No there would be no entry, unless there was an approved MEL program where I wrote up the GPS and maintenance deferred it for whatever reason.

My point is the DPE could never prove that the GPS was made inop by the owner, and as long as it ir removed and logged by an AP the DPE has no recourse...end of story.
 
Still amazed at the arguments vs just updating the damn database. Really makes me wonder what other corners people cut on a regular basis. :dunno:
 
EppyGA said:
Still amazed at the arguments vs just updating the damn database. Really makes me wonder what other corners people cut on a regular basis. :dunno:
Click to expand...

relax its just for fun.:)
 
Ron Levy said:
Correct.

Well, maybe you can, and maybe you can't, but it won't be an issue in that plane on that test day. And if you can't, I sure hope you get some training on them before you jump in a GPS-equipped plane and try one for real.
Click to expand...
If I understand it correctly, you cannot do a GPS approach legally without a IFR certified GPS unit. As I have seen many times on this forum and elsewhere lots of things can be done but that does not always make it legal.

As for GPS training, been there doing that, got the unit.
 
taters said:
real simple..disconnect the antenna cable and fn make it inoperable.
Click to expand...


GPS failed but the COM/VOR/ILS still work :idea:

Was thinking you could remove the unit and placard any remote CDI "Inop" update the W&B and make a log entry "removed for repair", but what if its the only Nav radio in the airplane? Pretty tough to fly IFR then.
 
EppyGA said:
Still amazed at the arguments vs just updating the damn database. Really makes me wonder what other corners people cut on a regular basis. :dunno:
Click to expand...

:lol: Reminds me how a flying buddy grumbles how much of Cheap _ss B_stards we pilots can be as a group.

We spend 10's of thousands on an airplane and instruction, then complain on items that cost .25 to .5 of an AMU, not tip the rampers, select FBO's based on quality of cookies, coffee and popcorn, and more.
 
Classic example showing everyone likes to argue legal matters...
 
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