Good Use of Prisoners: Airport Maintenance

Kids can work. I was cutting lawns at 11 or 12. ;)

Meanwhile back at the ranch...

Colorado is home to a number of large businesses using prisoner labor. They pay slave wages but the prisoners love the meager cash, and the companies have put a number of regular businesses under. Hard to compete with slave labor.

The largest supplier of farmed fish to Whole Paycheck... Cough, excuse me... Whole Foods... Was a Canon City based prisoner run fish farm. The owner of the last holdout supplier that had non-prisoner labor and no tax breaks and what not, gave up and closed up shop many years ago.

I'm surprised Whole Paycheck doesn't add on some nice cash register / checkout charity shaming like this, "Would you like to give a dollar so a prisoner can have a job raising fish?" And then use that to pay for even more of their fresh fish production costs, that they're selling well above market price.

Gotta love the whole wholesome prisoner slave trade thing. The companies are privately held and not required to publish their profits nor what their execs get paid.

Awesome gig if you bought the right State politicians to win the contracts by manipulation of the requirements.

BIG money putting the drug war casualties to work for $1.50/day. The perfect "company store".

I have no problem with prisoners doing menial work that city/county would normally be doing. Like ditch digging, brush clearing/mowing, street sweeping/trash pickup on the side of the road. When you start trying to use prison labor to run a business which competes with private industry it's a little different.
 
I have no problem with prisoners doing menial work that city/county would normally be doing. Like ditch digging, brush clearing/mowing, street sweeping/trash pickup on the side of the road. When you start trying to use prison labor to run a business which competes with private industry it's a little different.

There are no commercial ditch diggers, brush clearers, mowers, street sweepers, and trash pickup companies that deserve not to be up against companies who utilize incarcerated Citizens who did wrong to society, who'll now work for peanuts, compared to their contract rates?

Quite the moral dilemma. Government borrows nearly 50% of all it spends now, so cost-cutting is critical, but it's an indirect penalty for those who play by government's rules to have to compete against government's slave labor.

And most of these programs seem to not want to pay inmates the legal minimum wage or local rates for this sort of work, for all sorts of good and bad reasons.

Doesn't seem right to put a regular business up against an indentured workforce that can't negotiate it's own wages. Worse, that workforce is operated by a private for-profit business in and of itself that pays the execs and limited paid staff an unknown salary because it's privately held and somehow has special access to said indentured workforce.

I could see it if there truly weren't any local businesses willing to bid on those jobs.
 
There are no commercial ditch diggers, brush clearers, mowers, street sweepers, and trash pickup companies that deserve not to be up against companies who utilize incarcerated Citizens who did wrong to society, who'll now work for peanuts, compared to their contract rates?

Quite the moral dilemma. Government borrows nearly 50% of all it spends now, so cost-cutting is critical, but it's an indirect penalty for those who play by government's rules to have to compete against government's slave labor.

And most of these programs seem to not want to pay inmates the legal minimum wage or local rates for this sort of work, for all sorts of good and bad reasons.

Doesn't seem right to put a regular business up against an indentured workforce that can't negotiate it's own wages. Worse, that workforce is operated by a private for-profit business in and of itself that pays the execs and limited paid staff an unknown salary because it's privately held and somehow has special access to said indentured workforce.

I could see it if there truly weren't any local businesses willing to bid on those jobs.

Does the city contract people to clean garbage along the sides of the road? Serious question. I've never seen anyone along an interstate or highway except prisoners and the occasional city worker.
 
Does the city contract people to clean garbage along the sides of the road? Serious question. I've never seen anyone along an interstate or highway except prisoners and the occasional city worker.

Sure. Some do.

Around here they made it a popularity contest and give away free advertising to companies who "volunteer" their staff to "adopt a highway". Essentially employees of companies get their arms twisted to show up unpaid and clean a section of highway because their employer wants to look like their company is civic-minded.

City gets free cleanup, companies get free small billboards and ability to claim another civic function their "wonderful" business supports.

Which turned out to have pretty funny unintended consequences for municipalities who banned billboard ads for the budding (see what I did there?) pot businesses, claiming children would die, or old ladies would be run over or whatever silliness they claimed would befall the world if a pot billboard went up -- but those same municipalities couldn't ban them "adopting" all the highways. So they got signs all up and down the interstate with their business names and logos on them anyway. Haha.

Of course they could turn away the highway adopters, but then people see empty sponsorships on the little billboards that make the project seem like a failure, and the city eventually has to pay someone to pick up the trash in the ditches and dirt/grass storm runoff basins.
 
Most airports of any size are funded to a great degree by the " govmint". They have to be or they would close. Many of these airports were built during WW2 and were totally funded and built by the "govmint". When one looks at the tax rate in the fiftys and sixtys compared to today, especially corporate and high income people , it's easy to see why there was much expansion and growth, space travel etc. also compare U.S. Aircraft production at that time up thru the 70s! Today it's almost nothing in comparison . Plus the middle class is now in a very tenuous situation due to automation and shipping millions of jobs overseas. ( they are the people that bought light aircraft back then. All gone.) using convicts in the roles described has gone on for years. Most in maryland are kept busy picking up the trash along side the highways that hicks throw out their car windows.
 
Most airports of any size are funded to a great degree by the " govmint". They have to be or they would close. Many of these airports were built during WW2 and were totally funded and built by the "govmint". When one looks at the tax rate in the fiftys and sixtys compared to today, especially corporate and high income people , it's easy to see why there was much expansion and growth, space travel etc. also compare U.S. Aircraft production at that time up thru the 70s! Today it's almost nothing in comparison . Plus the middle class is now in a very tenuous situation due to automation and shipping millions of jobs overseas. ( they are the people that bought light aircraft back then. All gone.) using convicts in the roles described has gone on for years. Most in maryland are kept busy picking up the trash along side the highways that hicks throw out their car windows.

Broken record Jimmy. Nice cut and paste from the party lines again. How about some reality with that stuff?

Tax rate is meaningless without knowing how it relates to GDP. Taxation by GDP was over 100% at the end of WWII and fell steadily until 1974. After 1974 it has climbed back up to nearly half of GDP today.

Expansion and growth was a function of the overall economy after the baby boom, and because in ratio, government took less and less of the real dollars the boomers made, right up until the early seventies. Then it started to grow massively and eat everyone alive. Many want to be eaten, of course, because they directly or indirectly work for the beast; and those jobs are nearly impossible to be fired from or lose because they're unprofitable. In fact, the government now operates by borrowing $0.45 of every dollar it spends BEFORE the so-called "unfunded mandates". It's not paying roughly half of its bills from income revenue, even for the items it's decided it wants to spend on. And boy does it want to spend. Spend lots and lots of money it doesn't have.

Recall also there Jimbo, that a deficit is an annual measure or limited time measure. Debt isn't even included in the deficit spending number above. Debt is what the deficit accumulates. And it's growing without bounds too.

Anyway back to your points: Plenty of very large airports have been built since WWII. Many are quite profitable on paper without needing to have been paid for by government, and could easily be completely profitable without government. They'd just have to restructure how they charge airport users.

As far as shipping jobs overseas goes, you're right. It's shipping! It is simply a result of a quite successful aviation business if you think about it. Globalization can't happen if people and goods can't travel the globe inexpensively. For those big items, container shipping changed that world since WWII.

Expensive American labor simply isn't needed anymore, with access to cheap labor worldwide, and it's all thanks to the ultra efficient shipping industry and government building them airports and ports.

Cool how that works, eh? Unintended consequences. Success in one industry can kill others by opening markets previously inaccessible. And it did. In many.

Aircraft production after WWII through the 70s was propped up by one very specific thing. Cheap fuel.

Secondarily, it was propped up by two other things, the GI Bills of he past paying for flight training and the thing you most dislike: Tax breaks for the rich.

Owning an aircraft in the 70s and 80s could be structured as a lovely tax break. Especially one used for business purposes. Long gone are the credits for depreciation that allowed Cessna and Piper to sell thousands of units a year.

As far as convict labor goes: If the middle class is hurting so bad, the government allowing businesses or itself to use convicts to compete with the middle class, is technically more immoral today than it was in the past. Your assertion of the middle class going down is a reason to NOT do it, if you truly believe it.

Middle class can't find work? Probably shouldn't make them compete with prisoners for the menial manual labor stuff, really.
 
Most people who owned light aircraft did not use them for business but rather bought them having a good income. Those days are gone. In maryland the only place I've seen prisoners working is, as I said picking up trash that idiots and hicks throw out of their cars. I never see them competeing with private industry. The people who do that live in dormitorys of 7000 or so in China , make around fifty bucks a month. Tough to buy an airplane on that income. Simply look at the GA production records for the past fifty years. Easy to look up. Trickle down economics never did work, never will nor will listening to idiots like art laffer! You need to read more. Start with joe Stiglitz. And don't forget the last two wars, five trillion and climbing all put on a credit card. as for small airports, few would have existed without the GI bill helping them and here in maryland most all would close without state fed. Help. GA of thirty - fourty years ago was booming. Today people are flying thirty -fourty year old crates that probably sat out for years and paying too much for them.
 
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Yup. And using such labor is a dangerous incentive to the government to jail more people.

LOL...the justice system will corrupt itself to provide labor for mowing right of ways and picking up trash?

I can easily picture a fat Louisiana prosecutor scheming to populate the parish jail with the wrongly convicted so the highway medians will look nice.
 
LOL...the justice system will corrupt itself to provide labor for mowing right of ways and picking up trash?

I can easily picture a fat Louisiana prosecutor scheming to populate the parish jail with the wrongly convicted so the highway medians will look nice.

Only a couple of years ago, a corrupt juvenile court judge in PA kept sentencing kids to excessive sentences so his buddies private juvenile detention facility was well supplied. Look up Mark Ciavarella .
 
LOL...the justice system will corrupt itself to provide labor for mowing right of ways and picking up trash?

I can easily picture a fat Louisiana prosecutor scheming to populate the parish jail with the wrongly convicted so the highway medians will look nice.

That's the problem, the stereotypical corrupt politician has charisma as their only talent, they're not Boss Hogg. They offer nothing of value to society other than a wink and a smile as they pick your pocket.

They know if they can pretend they're saving pennies here or there, nobody will notice the empty bank account. Better yet, they'll scream that they've run out and nobody knows where it's all gone, but "critical programs are in jeopardy".

It's all about as factual as a late night informercial trying to convince you that the sale will be over when the next 30 people call in. Hurry! Call now!

People fall for it. Note Jimmy's commentary. He thinks government *created* the prosperity of the baby boomer generation, and wasn't just another happy recipient of all their hard work.

Only a couple of years ago, a corrupt juvenile court judge in PA kept sentencing kids to excessive sentences so his buddies private juvenile detention facility was well supplied. Look up Mark Ciavarella .

Yup. Read that one when it happened.

I'm always impressed at folks ability to ignore reality, and also that they think there's some magical place from a unicorn's butt, where all these incorruptible perfect people spring forth from, who will lead everyone (as if they needed leading in the first place, even that's just marketing) perfectly to utopia, without corruption or any error.

But boy, do people want it bad. Gimme some o' dat tasty gub'mint. They have a direct line to the factory where they make the perfect people who need no oversight or accountability, because they're bred to serve others in special tanks of unicorn blood. Makes their skin all glowy and their hair perfectly quaffed in all wind conditions.

Everyone knows this magical lab exists. It's just up the road from the lab where all pro athletes are taught how to be perfect role models. LOL
 
Well, that's one. But I know America thrives on anecdotes.
 
Well, that's one. But I know America thrives on anecdotes.

Look up the history of convict leasing. If there is money to be made, there is always someone willing to bend the rules to make that money.
 
I think we should use prisoners at TSA checkpoints. Be about as effective and waaay cheaper! :)
 
It's easy for people to have their heads in the collective sand on this one. Mostly because the "average Joe or Jane" doesn't know anyone in prison.

When a family friend was imprisoned for embezzlement (from government ironically perhaps) I didn't know her well enough to keep much in touch, but older family members wanted to.

They learned that in order to send prisoners email messages (since they have to be read and checked for various bad things I suppose), you buy "credits" from a private entity that is contracted to handle the email. The price works out to roughly $2.50/email. Pretty impressive. Sounds like a highly lucrative business. You can also buy credits for the inmate to use since they probably don't have much/any money, for emails and other things. Snacks for example. At prices well above even the highest vending machine you've ever cussed at as you fed it dollars for a tiny bag of potato chips.

It's incredibly regressive -- if your family can't afford $2.50 a letter to talk to you, you think you'll be thinking much about them and your effect on their lives? Etc. Most of the repeat offenders are broke, as are their families. Our family friend in "white collar crime" had friends outside willing to buy her "credits".

We also have a cousin who works as professional clergy in a county jail. He tells it like it is: "The Police leadership doesn't want me there, but they tolerate me because they can show on their spreadsheets that less violence occurs when a pastor is around and available for inmates to talk to. They don't really get it, that it's about me being the only person who ever said they cared for any of these guys. To them, it's just a business."

The more inhuman you make a group of people feel, he says, the less human they act.

Most Americans hear the phrase that we incarcerate more humans per capita than any other developed nation, and it doesn't really register what that really means about our government, our "Justice" system, or even give it a second thought. Not a care in the world about the scope of that.

"All those people were 'bad', who cares about any of them?" is the subconscious thought process they don't admit to having.

The popular desire nowadays is to think we need more rules and more government power and size. Or at least the latter part, while not really comprehending what that truly means in a land that locks up that many people. Make government bigger, wrote bigger rule books, and lock up some more people and it'll all be sunshine and rainbows.

Sure, violent crime needs to answer for things and actions have consequences, but in his county lockup, the number of violent criminals is pretty low.

The family acquaintance who was locked up, is now free, and working on her real problem, sobriety, and doing well. She was the personality type that said, "Stealing is wrong but nobody will ever miss this money..." And mixed with alcoholism and the poor decision making that stems from that, well you see the results.

Someone made a lot of money off of her being incarcerated. Ironically, a legalized form of her own crime. Stealing from people.

I'm certainly not high on the scale of "empathizes with criminals", but even I can see that $2.50/email is just someone ripping people off because they can.
 
Sure. Some do.

Around here they made it a popularity contest and give away free advertising to companies who "volunteer" their staff to "adopt a highway". Essentially employees of companies get their arms twisted to show up unpaid and clean a section of highway because their employer wants to look like their company is civic-minded.

.

Yeah they do that here too. Always on a Saturday, lots of traffic out doing Saturday things, trying to get somewhere and then a group of kids joking and clowning around instead of diving for trash. Police escort of course, so a nice traffic jam is guaranteed for one and all. Rant done...o_O
 
Yeah they do that here too. Always on a Saturday, lots of traffic out doing Saturday things, trying to get somewhere and then a group of kids joking and clowning around instead of diving foe trash. Police escort of course, so a nice traffic jam is guaranteed for one and all. Rant done...o_O
Interesting. Around here no police escort. They're just out there with a van and trash bags.

Where I get the willies watching them, is when you realize they've had no training to be working roadside next to 70 mph traffic (or ignored it) and they're standing behind the van, just daring fate to splatter them all over the side of the road when some idiot comes out of their lane and read ends the van with the non-working volunteers standing behind it.

It's mostly theater. The trash is back in a couple of days, which says more about their fellow Citizens than anything, really.
 
I did have to warn them about the whole ramp thing and not to go near aircraft or across taxiways and runways (the paved stuff, stick to the fence for trash/weedeating).

Although I had to laugh, one time a CAP cadet was finishing her pre-flight when he got there and was completely blown away that a girl was flying a plane. He asked me if that was legal!
 
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