Racing is set to return in 2022, just without Red Bull sponsorship. But nobody would have known what I was talking about had I not said RB. If you prefer, try to find a trike fixed gear Reno racer.
Going to learn tail wheel
- Thread starter 40YearDream
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Racing is set to return in 2022, just without Red Bull sponsorship. But nobody would have known what I was talking about had I not said RB. If you prefer, try to find a trike fixed gear Reno racer.
40YearDream
Pre-takeoff checklist
Multiple delays: last week, too much crosswind for a newbie (per the instructor). Only 1 tail wheel instructor in the school (the owner, an AA 787 captain), out of 5 CFIs. Was hoping to go up this past Saturday - but the 140 muffler had a major blowout earlier in the day. And now, the A&P / Instructor is going on vacation for a couple of days. Still haven't gone up in the 140. Patience req'd!
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
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texasclouds
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Welcome to aviation...it’ll be maintenance, weather, or scheduling every time!
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
A 120 and 140 are virtually the same these days because most 120’s have been modified into 140’s without flaps. Originally the differences were that a 120 was a 140 minus:
o Electrical system
o Rear side Windows
o Flaps
For all practical purposes they are the same plane. The 140 flaps are almost all drag and very little lift, so very few 140 flyers fool with flaps. You can set one down on a postage stamp without flaps anyway, and if you’re too high on approach, they slip so beautifully most everyone would rather slip than fool with flaps. The results being that from a pilots perspective they are virtually the very same plane.
o Electrical system
o Rear side Windows
o Flaps
For all practical purposes they are the same plane. The 140 flaps are almost all drag and very little lift, so very few 140 flyers fool with flaps. You can set one down on a postage stamp without flaps anyway, and if you’re too high on approach, they slip so beautifully most everyone would rather slip than fool with flaps. The results being that from a pilots perspective they are virtually the very same plane.
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
I was not born a patient person, but have learned it from aviation. I always have something in my flying that is delaying something in my flying. Be patient knowing that it will be worth the wait. It will be a fun challenge that will wake up your feet and put a smile on your face.
Do you know what year model their 140 is? There is a subtle but important difference between the 1948 and the earlier models that I will make sure you know about once I know which year model it is.
Edit: I re-read your OP and see that it’s a ‘46. The ‘48 model has the main wheels moved 3” forward from the position of the earlier models. In the 120/140 community there is this big ongoing debate about extenders. Extenders are plates that move the main wheels 3” forward like the ‘48 model. The 3” change doesn’t make much difference in the handling on the ground, but the ones with the mains rearward are easier to nose over if you panic and stab the brakes. It is not uncommon to hear people talk about a 140 being too easy to nose over. Don’t let this scare you in any way. Just be mindful of it and don’t slam on the brakes. If you need to shut it down quickly in an emergency just back off the brakes some if the tail starts to come up. Don’t let this scare you away from a 140, it is very manageable and docile.
Also depending on the engine it will take more runway for take off than you might think when your instructor is aboard. You can land it on a dime though.
Post a picture in this thread and document the project here.
Most of all, HAVE FUN! I’m excited for you.
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Don't 120s have fabric wings and 140s metal wings?
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
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Iffen you have the original Grabyear bladders - yea...
Updated to, say, Cleveland Disks? You can use the brakes to hold the tail up for the fun of it. (At least in a '46 without those stupid extenders
)There are 140s with fabric wings. Some were metalized. The 140A had metal wings.
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
All of the 120’s and 140’s were fabric from the factory until the 140 A which has a metal 150 wing. Many, or probably most have been metalized since. IMHO that is a bad plan because it adds too much weight to an already useful load challenged aircraft. Mine is a ‘48 and still a ragwing which makes it a rare gem. Of course there are many other things about mine that makes it a gem: O-200A instead of C85, vacuum pump, Alternator, oil filter, 150 seats, 150 wheel pants and.......
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MBDiagMan
Final Approach
Iffen you have the original Grabyear bladders - yea...
Updated to, say, Cleveland Disks? You can use the brakes to hold the tail up for the fun of it. (At least in a '46 without those stupid extenders
As I said, the extenders are controversial. Thanks for the evidence of my point.
I forgot to mention my Cleveland brakes and Scott tailwheel.
40YearDream
Pre-takeoff checklist
Finally had things work out to get the first lesson this morning. Didn't seem to bad to handle, generally - just have to get used to looking to the side. This plane still has fabric wings, but plenty of other newer stuff added in the panel. The previous owner even put in a manifold pressure gage! (who knows why?)
Did 5 landings / takeoffs, 4 of those at a grass field. All landings were no-flaps. Light winds helped a lot. One landing went off - sloppy on my part - so the instructor had to take it. [f I didn't get yelled at at least once, it wasn't a real lesson, right?] Interesting how heavy the ailerons felt, in comparison to a 172; but the rudder seems much more effective. Interesting also how this 140 is perfectly happy to fly in a skid, even in cruise. Takeoffs didn't seem too bad to handle - there's a long enough fuselage to help. It seemed there was some memory there from r/c taildraggers. Kinda felt like stepping back in time, getting into this 1946 airplane. Neat experience - have scheduled a couple more sessions, want to get that endorsement. (The other future advantage is that this airplane should be available most of the time, compared to the others in the flight school.)
Did 5 landings / takeoffs, 4 of those at a grass field. All landings were no-flaps. Light winds helped a lot. One landing went off - sloppy on my part - so the instructor had to take it. [f I didn't get yelled at at least once, it wasn't a real lesson, right?] Interesting how heavy the ailerons felt, in comparison to a 172; but the rudder seems much more effective. Interesting also how this 140 is perfectly happy to fly in a skid, even in cruise. Takeoffs didn't seem too bad to handle - there's a long enough fuselage to help. It seemed there was some memory there from r/c taildraggers. Kinda felt like stepping back in time, getting into this 1946 airplane. Neat experience - have scheduled a couple more sessions, want to get that endorsement. (The other future advantage is that this airplane should be available most of the time, compared to the others in the flight school.)
texasclouds
En-Route
Wow, that’s a nice looking plane! You’ll get it down in no time. What are the solo requirements?
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
Wonderful!
I personally believe that you would be much better off mastering this on paved runways. Then grass will be a non event. If you get competent on grass you won’t necessarily be prepared for pavement.
Welcome to the world of 140’s and tailwheels.
BTW, those are 150 wheel pants. I don’t remember ever seeing them on any 140 except my own.
I personally believe that you would be much better off mastering this on paved runways. Then grass will be a non event. If you get competent on grass you won’t necessarily be prepared for pavement.
Welcome to the world of 140’s and tailwheels.
BTW, those are 150 wheel pants. I don’t remember ever seeing them on any 140 except my own.
40YearDream
Pre-takeoff checklist
The owner / instructor said he'd train in this order: 3-point on grass, wheel landings on grass, then moving to paved runways, finally stronger crosswinds. The airport we start from is paved, so there's unavoidably at least 1 pavement takeoff/landing in every lesson. Looking forward to more lessons in the rear future!
40YearDream
Pre-takeoff checklist
I assume - the solo requirement is: whenever the instructor trusts me enough to fly his airplane without breaking it!
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
Does it still have an 85 or has it been upgraded to an O-200?
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
I’m sure your instructor has his reasons for his methods, but once you’ve mastered pavement, you don’t have to do anything further to learn grass. Much like learning to drive a stick and then transitioning to an automatic is nothing.
Glad you’re enjoying it and looking forward to the next lesson. It’s fun stuff.
Kritchlow
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Wait.... I have about 0.5 hours logged in 1987 from CFI spin training. I think it was a Champ?? Something like that. I have 0 takeoffs, and 0 landings. But... I believe that portion where I was sole manipulator is logged PIC.
Am I qualed in a TW??
Perhaps I misread.
Am I qualed in a TW??
Perhaps I misread.
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
Not sure how the FAR was written, but I think it would require solo flight.
40YearDream
Pre-takeoff checklist
This has an O-200.
Still no hotrod, with 15 more horses. The instructor had to remind me several times on climb outs to pitch for 70 mph. Used to pitch attitude of a 172 with 160 hp.
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
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"The training and endorsement required by paragraph (i)(1) of this section is not required if the person logged pilot-in-command time in a tailwheel airplane before April 15, 1991."
jbDC9
Pre-takeoff checklist
If you logged PIC time in a tailwheel aircraft prior to April 15, 1991, you don’t need the tailwheel endorsement. See FAR 61.31(i).
No solo time needed. So, you’d be legal to fly a taildragger. But, qualified? Not really likely.
MauleSkinner
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Legal to act as PIC? yes. Qualified? Probably not.
Daleandee
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Sounds like a Champ. After climbing forever to get to 1000' with the go knob glued in the WOT position ... then ask the instructor where the throttle should be set. He says, "where ever you have it now is fine!"
Kritchlow
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Qualified, YES. Competent, NO.
Huckster79
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that’s hilarious
I love mine! You will be smitten soon if you aren’t already. I’ve yet to meet anyone who had a 120/140 in the past that doesn’t say they miss it. Speaks well of them. I’ve taken mine all over from MI to Idaho twice into Johnson Creek, to Florida and all over my state. I get back in the club 172 I’m still a part of and it feels like driving an old truck w no power steering
still a great bird- just not as fun as ol Shirley. Congrats on going for it! Keep us posted! there’s pretty good reason for the argument that it’s still no homesick angel as you are t really getting all 100hp out of the O-200 in a 120/140 as it’s airframe limited on rpm so you can’t wind it up as high as you can say in a 150/2 so ya are leaving hp on the table.
the low power will teach you a lot too! I know my 140 taught me things in the first 6 months that 180hp 172 never did in 10 years of flying it. When we went out west in high DA I handled it better than some of my friends all who had 100hp over me, sure she was very anemic but I’d learned to fly not relying just on “pulling back and zooming up” so more accentuated- sure, but nothing new.
enjoy enjoy enjoy!
Huckster79
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Huckster79
so not only are you a fellow 140 guy but you fly a V tail version! They are by far the best
mines 1859V we’re thinking of making up a shirt about v tail 140s
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
Great! The O-200 makes a difference when you’re two aboard on a hot day. It climbs out reasonably, even with full tanks, and even on a hot day. With an 85, under those conditions, getting Max Gross is something you think twice about doing on a short runway.
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
Thanks for looking it up Captain.
I now realize why I thought it would require a solo. I started flying lessons in late December 1991. I flew the Champ and even landed it before April 1992, but as a student pilot with the instructor aboard, so I could not log PIC. Had I solo’d in it I could have logged PIC as a student pilot.
I was the Champ instructors first student in December 1991 when he retired and began instructing. He was trying to decide whether or not to insure the Champ for students to solo in. He decided not to and I went to a 150 and he solo’d me a couple of flight hours later. A few months later I flew the Champ again to do spins which he required before he would sign you off for the checkride. He was aboard, so that was still not time that could be logged PIC.
That instructor is still instructing and has solo’d and taken so many students to their checkride level that when I asked him how many pilots he’s produced, his comment was something like “Lord, I have no idea.” I still fly with him occasionally even though he’s almost cross country distance away. He’s aged well and mellowed out in his teaching style.
And yes, had I solo’d then, not requiring an endorsement, that would only ensure my legality, not my competency. In my case though with a few thousand tailwheel landings behind me, I think I can consider myself qualified.
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
so not only are you a fellow 140 guy but you fly a V tail version! They are by far the best
we’re thinking of making up a shirt about v tail 140s
LOL! I love it! I hope you’ll let me use that. I can’t wait to tell my friends that I fly a VTail 140!
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There are times I wish I had learned in that order. I started out doing wheel landings on pavement and found the learning curve to be steep.
Different horses. A friend with a C85 cruises at 2200 rpm, whereas I have to flog my O200 at >2400...
Almost. The 140A has plain flaps, the 150 has Fowler flaps.
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
Were you at least a private pilot at the time? If so, then your PIC time makes you legal in a conventional gear aircraft, but as pointed out by many and I’m sure you know more than anyone, does not necessarily make you competent.
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
The order I was taught, and what makes sense to me, was three point on pavement, three point on grass, then wheel landings and I honestly don’t remember if the wheel landings were on grass or pavement first.
I fully expect that the difference between 85 and O-200 that you describe, is largely because of the prop. The 85 probably has its torque peak at a slightly lower RPM causing it to pull a different Prop. My O-200 is fresh and amazingly strong. I don’t have to flog it unless it’s full of fuel with a full crew (both
) on a hot day. The O-200 and prop combination, still develop more thrust than the 85 combination.I didn’t know the 140A didn’t have the barn door flaps. Learn something new every day around here. The 140 flaps are not very helpful. Relative to most flaps they are virtually all drag and no lift. That’s why the 120 was just fine with no flaps installed. They slip so well and land so slow that there’s no real need for flaps. I can’t remember the last time I used them.
Huckster79
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I bought mine from a situation like that. Gentleman had conventional hours from the 70s and bought my plane, flew it home and scared himself landing it- put it on barnstormers and now she’s mine!
Huckster79
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The order I was taught, and what makes sense to me, was three point on pavement, three point on grass, then wheel landings and I honestly don’t remember if the wheel landings were on grass or pavement first.
I fully expect that the difference between 85 and O-200 that you describe, is largely because of the prop. The 85 probably has its torque peak at a slightly lower RPM causing it to pull a different Prop. My O-200 is fresh and amazingly strong. I don’t have to flog it unless it’s full of fuel with a full crew (both
I didn’t know the 140A didn’t have the barn door flaps. Learn something new every day around here. The 140 flaps are not very helpful. Relative to most flaps they are virtually all drag and no lift. That’s why the 120 was just fine with no flaps installed. They slip so well and land so slow that there’s no real need for flaps. I can’t remember the last time I used them.
no doubt the 0-200 has more than the c85 but what rpm are you limited to? As I believe it’s still prob not making 100hp in a 120/140.
my favorite use of the flaps is for take off on rough stuff or while on skis, once your rolling good but before normal liftoff ya pop those babies full on and whhhom your a foot or two in the air! Then climb just a skosh and ease em off by feel for no “flap dump drop” and be on your way. It’s kinda fun
and yes if we do those shirts I’ll let ya know
Dan Thomas
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If the instructor was in the airplane, he's the one responsible for the flight and you are not the PIC.
Dan Thomas
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The O-200's 100-HP rating is optimistic. One homebuilt propeller manufacturer in Europe uses 85 HP as the figure for making O-200 props. I have flown a C-90 in an Alon Aircoupe, an airplane with the same power-to-weight ratio as a 150, and it could run circles around the 150. Took off shorter, climbed faster, cruised faster. It could even outrun the O-200 power Champ we had.no doubt the 0-200 has more than the c85 but what rpm are you limited to? As I believe it’s still prob not making 100hp in a 120/140.
my favorite use of the flaps is for take off on rough stuff or while on skis, once your rolling good but before normal liftoff ya pop those babies full on and whhhom your a foot or two in the air! Then climb just a skosh and ease em off by feel for no “flap dump drop” and be on your way. It’s kinda fun
and yes if we do those shirts I’ll let ya know
unsafervguy
En-Route
interesting way to put it since cessna advertised their tricycle gear airplanes when they came out as "land o matic" gear.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
I soloed in one. 2437V.so not only are you a fellow 140 guy but you fly a V tail version! They are by far the best
we’re thinking of making up a shirt about v tail 140s
I’m not sure what it means that I remember that tail number almost 40 years later...