Glider update

rottydaddy

rottydaddy

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beaky
Season's almost over, and I still haven't soloed. Wx, work, and my stubborn little faults... like not calling "200!" as we pass the critical height on the tow. Might happen this season, wx permitting... but I have to stop forgetting that.

Saturday I got a firm but harmless shot in the unmentionables from my instructor while walking the 2-33 back after I forgot to call it- again! (it's OK; we're friends, but I vowed revenge). :eek:

Next flight I yelled "200!!" as loud as I could, but he told me the needle was centered on the 2, not on the actual mark. Blast him. :D

Then I forgot AGAIN on the next tow, and since he couldn't reach my crotch, he just popped us off for a simulated rope break (my first), at about 300.:yikes:

I did very well with that, calling out the checklist... but since the wind is normally from the SW 99 out of 100 days at 47N, I turned left , even though the wind was NW. As I rolled out on my recip heading, I could see we were pointing at the tiedowns on the south side, not the grass alongside the runway. At about 200 feet. D'oh.

I managed to teardrop back for a decent downwind landing anyway, despite that... 200 AGL as the decision height for a turnaround is actually pretty conservative, even for a clunky old bird like a 2-33. If you really had to, you could turn around and land downwind from 100-150.

But 200 gives you time ... if I ever find myself off-tow below 200 there, I probably won't try to make the runway... that second or two of "huh?" can cost you a lot of altitude, 'specially if the rope breaks soundlessly and you're wondering why the towplane is getting so small and so high, as you instinctively pull the nose up more and more to try to fix that. :D
 
Gliding sounds like fun. Its such a foreign world to me to hear stuff like this! You'll get it next season, I'm sure (what is the Gliding season?)
 
As a CFIG I have to question why yelling anything is such a big deal. 200' may or MAY NOT be the critical height, if by that you mean the altitude to make a 180 back to the runway on which you took off. It depends on wind direction and strength, performance of glider, experience of pilot, airspeed, availability and position of other suitable landing areas, etc, etc.

Your CFIG SHOULD be concerned about your ADM (aeronautical decision making). Not taking into account the wind direction when you turned after a rope break of course does not show good ADM. OTOH this is a good demonstration as to why any absolutes, like "I always turn right after a rope break" or "I always yell 200 at 200' AGL in the tow", aren't always such good ideas.

Just my opinion. Hope you solo soon and learn to enjoy the sport as much as I did.
 
Cool. Congrats on making it this far. It only gets more fun from here on.

I do have to agree with Lance on this. While it is a good idea to know when you think you can return to the airport vs landing straight ahead, I don't think stressing the 200 call is that important. There are some situations where you won't automatically make it back from 200'. When we did some rope breaks this summer we actually simulated a pretty flat tow, and on the second break we didn't touch the spoilers on the way back to the airport, as the tailwinds had died some, and we found a bit of sink. For about 10 seconds the beanfield short of the RWY looked pretty damn attractive.

Remember there is nothing fun or simulated on a simulated rope break.

Pete
 
It's just his way...after 1000-plus tows, I figure he knows what works. And it is probably pretty specific to this airport.

In stronger winds, we of course consider a higher altitude, and for landing straight ahead, 47N doesn't have much to work with straight off 25, partly because you are off-property, typically, at 200 feet.

To the SW there's a small field for banner pick-ups and RC flying, and to the S/SW there's a small golf course. West and NW you have power lines, trees, RR tracks, and many structures. If you find yourself off tow below 200 off 25, you will see trees in your path, at least in the winds I've been allowed to tackle.

So it's wise to have a specific plan before you launch off 25, and 200 feet (below that, try for the field or golf course; above, turn upwind and make a 180) works nicely under typical conditions.

And for me, the 200-foot thing is really just the tip of the iceberg.

As I see it, part of my task as the student is to convince him beyond a shadow of a doubt that I'm not loafing mentally- ever, and overall I guess I'm failing to do that often enough that he's pushing me to be more consistent. I'm still doing dumb power-pilot stuff, like forgetting to think about the rope-break on tow and flying downwind too close because I'm worried about being too far out without power. I can handle the maneuvering, traffic ops, even hunting for and working thermals, but I have to polish up the mental aspect (and talking aloud to prove I'm doing it).

To be honest, every time I've failed to call it out, I was, in fact, not thinking about having to to turn around, being hung-up on watching the towplane. It's just a stumbling block for me.

As far as the turn goes, the left turn was a mistake in this case because it took me downwind. There was enough wind to make it a little problem.

Part of the pre-launch checklist he teaches is to verify wind direction (as the tow plane moves into position at the latest), then recite the turnaround procedure with that particular wind in mind... I recall saying "turn upwind", but should have said-and visualized- "turn right" in this case.

He didn't like the way I was reciting the checklists by rote that time... unfocused.

Anyway, if I were in his shoes- an experienced CFIG with an above-average PPASEL-rated student ( :D ), I'd be pretty demanding, too. I wouldn't sign me off right now, either.

And like I said, I only got a shot in the nuts because we're already friends. :D
 
SkyHog said:
Gliding sounds like fun. Its such a foreign world to me to hear stuff like this! You'll get it next season, I'm sure (what is the Gliding season?)
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Gliding season depends on where you are, and what kind of flying you're doing.
We don't go XC, and don't usually get massive lift like some areas do, or have high-performance gliders, so we just fly when it's good enough, as opposed to when it's perfect. Lately there's been no good lift, so we just do "sleigh rides" from 2-3000 or pattern hops from 1500.

Basically we start when it's warm enough to stand it, and stop when it's too cold.

It is a lot of fun, and a very rewarding challenge. Doing this has pretty much convinced me that there's something to the "everybody ought to start in gliders" mindset: it's simpler than powered flight, but demands a sharp, flexible mind... as well as a great sensitivity for the sky. All the same stuff any powered pilot deals with, but in gliders, it's always right there in your lap, and there are no second chances without power (in ships like the 2-33 and 1-26, anyway).

I feel like I've been rebuilding my flying foundation all summer, making my skillset more solid.
 
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rottydaddy said:
To be honest, every time I've failed to call it out, I was, in fact, not thinking about having to to turn around, being hung-up on watching the towplane. It's just a stumbling block for me.
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Has the tow pilot learned to stay in front of you, or is he/she still zooming around all over the sky? :D

(Disclamer:I ain't never flew no glider in real life)
 
Hey folks, 200 ft isn't the critical alt. for turning around and going back to the airport. 200 ft is the generally agreed upon critical altitude for TURNING more than a few degrees this or that way for gliders.

It's all about wind gradient, wingspan, and to some extent, stall recovery. Calling out 200 is good, but it doesn't mean "now I can turn around and make the airport".

The "E" for emergency in the pre-takeoff checklist as taught by both Tony C and I is: "Emergency on take off, below 200 lower the nose and land ahead. Above 200 lower the nose, land ahead or behind"

There is nothing about going back to the airport.

As far as getting this through your power pilot head don't worry. I was barely taught to think about tow failures in my primary glider training but I eventually learned it. You will too.
 
wby0nder said:
The "E" for emergency in the pre-takeoff checklist as taught by both Tony C and I is: "Emergency on take off, below 200 lower the nose and land ahead. Above 200 lower the nose, land ahead or behind"

There is nothing about going back to the airport.
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Hm. I may have created some confusion- the best outcome is to land downwind where we normally land, but that's not the specific instruction, obviously.

Comparing your "mantra" with his, I see that "land behind" is pretty much the same thing as getting back over the fence (which would of course not be an option at any airport, just some), although it includes "whatever works that isn't straight ahead"

The verbal checklist I've been taught is:

"Below 200: nose below the horizon; land ahead."

"Above 200: nose below the horizon; 45-degree bank upwind; coordinate, coordinate, coordinate (meaning don't get sloppy in that turn!)... land downwind."

Not included in that is the obvious proviso that the runway may be too risky to aim for, depending on conditions... landing ahead may be the only safe option, especially with traffic departing the main runway, banner planes working the field in the SW corner, or some other factor.
 
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Nothing magical happens at 200.000' in a glider. Be cautious of mantras and other absolutes.

I do realize that in a training environment the CFI must impart some guidelines to a new student. They should be presented as such. As the student advances the many other considerations of what to do in the various stages of the tow in case of problems should be covered.
 
Lance F said:
Nothing magical happens at 200.000' in a glider. Be cautious of mantras and other absolutes.

I do realize that in a training environment the CFI must impart some guidelines to a new student. They should be presented as such. As the student advances the many other considerations of what to do in the various stages of the tow in case of problems should be covered.
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+1

Lance you ready for that CFI checkride yet??
 
What CFI checkride? All I want for Christmas is an ATP checkride :D
 
yea, well after the ATP you'll need something to work on. plus, you'll be a good one
 
Thanks. Don't think I haven't considered it.
 
"Above 200: nose below the horizon; 45-degree bank upwind; coordinate, coordinate, coordinate (meaning don't get sloppy in that turn!)... land downwind."

To me this pre-loads your mind to a fairly specific plan that may not actually make sense depending on the circumstances. Imagine the towplane is running on only 3 cylinders for the first 200 feet of the tow. You may be a couple miles from the airport when you get the wave-off!


"Nothing magical happens at 200.000' in a glider."

Agreed. Mostly. Maneuvering below 200agl is considered by many soaring veterans to be substantially more risky. This is also why we try to be on a final approach for SOMETHING landable when decending through 200. I believe this thinking stems from the fact that most gliders have a fairly long span (for a small GA aircraft) and in a steep bank close to the ground the low wing may be in a much different relative airstream due to wind gradient effects. 200 is only a rule of thumb but it's difficult to provide a rational arguement for ignoring it for students or veterans alike.
 
wby0nder said:
it's difficult to provide a rational arguement for ignoring it for students or veterans alike.
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The circumstances.
I had a rope break (actually the ring pulled out of the tow hook) at less than 100'. At this particular field if I had flown straight ahead I would have seriously damaged the glider (Std Cirrus) and probably me as well. I was able to use the available energy to make a 180 deg turn and land in a corn field running parallel to to the grass strip. Other than knocking down some tall corn it was a nonevent. I am glad that I was trained well enough to evaluate the circumstances of that particular situation and do what I had to do.
 
wby0nder said:
To me this pre-loads your mind to a fairly specific plan that may not actually make sense depending on the circumstances. Imagine the towplane is running on only 3 cylinders for the first 200 feet of the tow.
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I like to think I'd see that right away and get the hell off, especially at 47N, where there are power lines across both departure lines. That Citabria would be hard-pressed to get us past those hazards with any real engine trouble.
But it's food for thought: imagining myself flying the towplane under those circumstances, below 200 I'd probably not be thinking immediately about signaling a wave-off... that kind of problem would challenge everybody involved. Thinking about it more, I think I'd probably release the glider without warning- if the engine's about to quit that low, every second counts.
 
Rope breaks are interesting events. Every airport is not the same, even different directions on the same airport can cause a different decision in the event of an emergency.

Not all "180 turns" on rope break can be "into the wind", we have parrallel runway operations with powered aircraft on one and gliders on the other. We teach our pilots "at our field" plan on turning away from the other runway, you could do a 180 turn into head on traffic if you don't.

We do use the "200ft call" but also a "500ft call", not so much as a "now I can turn around call", but a mind set call to change the thinking of what the response to an emergency could be. Our 500ft call is "possible abreviated pattern".. turn onto the close in downwind and evaluate.

Remember, not all rope breaks will be punctuated by the gun shot sound of the instructor pulling the rear release. It could happen at 20ft as the rope parts company with the ring. If could happen at any altitude and all you see is the tow plane getting smaller and the rope falling away. If you have any tension on the rope you might feel the instant momentary decleration.

Your first clue of a problem could be when the tow pilot feeds you the rope because his engine died or hiccupped or lost power or is vibrateting with a stuck valve at full power and he is descending rapidly below you. He pulled his release, you are now one less thing he has to worry about.

The key to PPT (Premature Termination of Tow) is to always have an "out", I know one instructor that was always asking during the take off and tow. "Where are you going to go now, and now.. and now (think of the Verizon "can you hear me now?".. and now.. what are you going to do.

On our 200ft "practice 180 turns", at our wide open field, no trees, we (1) pitch for airspeed, (2) coordianted turn away from the other runway, (3) roll out on 45 degree intercept towards the runway (that's a 235degree turn), (4) EVALUATE! TRAFFIC?, RUNWAY BLOCKED?, LANDING TRAFFIC on the opposite final approach? If it's clear, land on the runway, if not, land in the infield.

Do you know all the alternate landing areas on your field? Do you review them with local knowledgeable pilots when you visit other fields? Do you ask.. "what are the gotchas around these parts"..?

BT CFIG
 
Bill brings up a good point, and my CFIG heartily encourages this as well. Drive around the airport perimeter, and find all of the possible landing sites, and make a mental note of where they are. Also keem looking at theses fields throughout the year, ans crops change. The same should be done from the air to correlate what you saw on the ground with how it looks from the air. Thankfully we have plenty of farmers fields around our airport in Hartford WI, but some of them ar less hospitable (think 6'+ corn) at certain parts of the year.
 
I am excited to see another person progressing into soaring. I was lucky to have Matt and Tony introduce me to the sport. This thread is full of good discussion and I am trying to soak this up like a sponge so I can have many perspectives when I am trying to teach this stuff to the unsuspecting.
 
I'll take Pete's idea one further. When I was actively competing and soaring cross country, I would play the "where and how would I land here" game whereever I was going. In the car, whether on the interstate or backroads, I would evaluate what I would do if I got low in that area. I'd evaluate fields for obstructions, access, lengths, etc, etc. I don't know if that ever helped me in real landouts, but it's definitely a good exercise.
 
Lance F said:
I'll take Pete's idea one further. When I was actively competing and soaring cross country, I would play the "where and how would I land here" game whereever I was going. In the car, whether on the interstate or backroads, I would evaluate what I would do if I got low in that area. I'd evaluate fields for obstructions, access, lengths, etc, etc. I don't know if that ever helped me in real landouts, but it's definitely a good exercise.
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I strongly agree Lance. I do the same. Once you have a good feel for you gliders performance wrt clearing obstacles and ground roll, you can really start to look at fields and figure out how you can make it into them. also, of course, try to imagine what the field would look like from the air.
 
Blown out today... Winds SW at 40G50 and the dust is so thick your spitting rocks out of your mouth.
Tomorrow's froecast.. NW winds after the front goes through.. 20knts or so..
and then the rains/ice/snow come in for Mon/Tue/Weds

and this is the DESERT !!
 
We braved another December afternoon yesterday... pretty cold when the sun went behind the high stratus and the wind started blowing. But it was bearable. There were even little areas of lift, although nothing really workable (with a 2-33).

Bit too much of a gusty crosswind for me to solo, but I got up twice with H. and had a fun, productive time of it. Boxed the wake for the first time in a while; that was good practice.

Got my fingers crossed for one more decent day without too much wind... I know it's not a race and I'll be almost starting over next spring, but it would be great to solo before we call it a season.
 
Sunday was great.. cool but sunny and a little southwest breeze for some weak ridge soaring. Monday it RAINED and SNOWED!!

In the middle of the Mojave Desert.. it snows!!
 
Well bill it beats the high of 8F we had yesterday in WI :)
 
-2F for a high today here. Can't wait for summer! Fun reading about your glider training experiences. 2-33 is a very good primary trainer. Really shows you what the rudder is for. I trained and got my glider add on with a 2-33 in 2007. Then checked out in and soloed a Blanik L-23. Lots of fun! One inch stick movement in the Blanik will do more than four inches of movement in the 2-33. Recommend you try one next. Have you ever tried truck tow? We do it with a 1250 foot rope and get to 800-1000 feet of altitude on a 4000 foot runway. Fly the pattern, land, hook up and go again. Very quick and very fun for both the truck and the glider.

Just my style and opinion but I like to have extra altitude to waste both glider and powered when flying base and final. With full spoilers and a good forward slip that 2-33 will easily lose 500 feet on a 1/4 mile final. Even more if there is much headwind. Tell your instructor you want to try that and see what you think? Low and slow and below the glide slope really looks dumb to me and you will never see me there.
 
Ok.. so Monday's snow fall got beat by an almost record snowfall on Weds.
8-10 inches in the southern part of the LAS valley. I guess it happens every 30 years or so.

For crying out loud.. this is the SW Desert!!! We are supposed to be in "Global Warming"!!! but not here.

I posted in the maint thread about the Pawnee AD 2007-08-07, has anyone completed the permanate fix?
 
Well Back to Soaring...I'm off to take my comm glider written exam...wish me luck
 
B2Soar said:
-2F for a high today here. Can't wait for summer! Fun reading about your glider training experiences. 2-33 is a very good primary trainer. Really shows you what the rudder is for. I trained and got my glider add on with a 2-33 in 2007. Then checked out in and soloed a Blanik L-23. Lots of fun! One inch stick movement in the Blanik will do more than four inches of movement in the 2-33. Recommend you try one next. Have you ever tried truck tow? We do it with a 1250 foot rope and get to 800-1000 feet of altitude on a 4000 foot runway. Fly the pattern, land, hook up and go again. Very quick and very fun for both the truck and the glider.

Just my style and opinion but I like to have extra altitude to waste both glider and powered when flying base and final. With full spoilers and a good forward slip that 2-33 will easily lose 500 feet on a 1/4 mile final. Even more if there is much headwind. Tell your instructor you want to try that and see what you think? Low and slow and below the glide slope really looks dumb to me and you will never see me there.
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We have only about 3300 feet of usable runway when launching west (which is 99% of the time), the overrun at the east end slopes a lot... plus, I don't know how well a truck towing operation would work when the airport is busy (it gets pretty crowded due to the cheaper fuel there). Using a stock Citabria and a 200-foot rope, we can make quick work of staging and launching, and have much more control of the release.

As for the pattern altitude, we never hold more than 1/2 spoilers on base, so entry at 900 (AGL), abeam the numbers at 600, base at 400, final at 200 works fine there. Our usable grass landing area is also fairly limited- for various reasons we are looking to land between two taxiways, so landing long is to be avoided. A lower, closer pattern helps with that, too.

In strong winds, of course, adjustments may need to be made (for downdrafts and/or the usual wind gradient). But I have never felt I was too low, in any conditions, even with two souls aboard the 2-33. Other than brief moments to duck under the power pattern, or in those last seconds when rounding out to land, I've never used full spoilers there.
 
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As for the pattern altitude, we never hold more than 1/2 spoilers on base, so entry at 900 (AGL), abeam the numbers at 600, base at 400, final at 200 works fine there.


I'm a big advocate of turning final above or at 200agl. I'm also a big advocate of ignoring the altimeter after pre-landing checklist. If you find yourself using it to make decisions in the approach cover it up. It's WAY down the list of important places to focus your attention for even a few seconds during the approach. It lags, it lies, it cant kill you if you don't look at it... When you land at an unfamiliar field it will be useless so you might as well learn to ignore it now.

If you or your instructor have already realized this never mind. And, keep up the good work! There is nothing like soaring!

Matt
 
After watching a local glider make what looked like some low approaches I decided to do a little research into the issue. I don't look at the altimeter at all after I pass abeam the numbers on downwind. I have been flying with a flight recorder in my glider since 2000 so I went back and looked at the flight traces from my previous flights. I found that most of the time I turn final at about 400 ft AGL. Occasionally I would turn final as Low as 200 feet. However after looking at the glide angle to my touch down point I found that my glide angle was the almost the same no matter what altitude I turned final at. I don't recall what that angle is for sure but I believe it was somewhere between 4 and 6 degrees.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
HP16T
 
brcase said:
After watching a local glider make what looked like some low approaches I decided to do a little research into the issue. I don't look at the altimeter at all after I pass abeam the numbers on downwind. I have been flying with a flight recorder in my glider since 2000 so I went back and looked at the flight traces from my previous flights. I found that most of the time I turn final at about 400 ft AGL. Occasionally I would turn final as Low as 200 feet. However after looking at the glide angle to my touch down point I found that my glide angle was the almost the same no matter what altitude I turned final at. I don't recall what that angle is for sure but I believe it was somewhere between 4 and 6 degrees.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
HP16T
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Excellent analysis and how wonderful to have your skills backed-up by actual data!
 
wby0nder said:
As for the pattern altitude, we never hold more than 1/2 spoilers on base, so entry at 900 (AGL), abeam the numbers at 600, base at 400, final at 200 works fine there.


I'm a big advocate of turning final above or at 200agl. I'm also a big advocate of ignoring the altimeter after pre-landing checklist. If you find yourself using it to make decisions in the approach cover it up. It's WAY down the list of important places to focus your attention for even a few seconds during the approach. It lags, it lies, it cant kill you if you don't look at it... When you land at an unfamiliar field it will be useless so you might as well learn to ignore it now.

If you or your instructor have already realized this never mind. And, keep up the good work! There is nothing like soaring!

Matt
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I've never stared at the altimeter (or rigidly adhered to it) in the pattern as a powered-airplane pilot, and I don't do so as a glider pilot.
I only quoted the numbers to defend this "low" method... actually, the only number that really counts is 900 feet when crossing to downwind, or thereabouts when joining the downwind from the pattern side. Any lower, and you might make it, but it won't be a relaxed approach (in a 2-33). After that, as long as I don't go so high as to crowd the power pattern or so low as to hit something or run out of altitude to make a safe final leg, 600, 400, etc. are not gospel... just guidelines.
 
It looks like you have set up an operating proceedure that fits and works well for you at your airfield. We fly out of a field that is usually pretty quiet unless it is crop dusting time. That is why we can enjoy truck towing if we feel like it.

The spoilers on the 2-33 are very effective. I personally think all instructors should include demonstration and training for approaches to landings using full spoilers on the entire final approach so each student knows how steep their approach can be if needed rather than thinking they need to figure how much to extend their downwind and base legs if they are a little high in the pattern. Add a good forward slip and you can drop like an elevator if needed. Also good stuff to be comfortable with when landing at unfamiliar fields or off field if necessary.

When you solo you will notice that you need MORE altitude to make forward progress against a headwind than when you have the instructor in there with you. And the opposite if going with the wind.(the reason ballast is sometimes used)

Just stuff to think about while waiting for gliding weather. Happy Hollidays!

Rick
 
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