Glider to power transition?

[cb1000rider]

I hold an FAA private pilot certificate for gliders and have over 120 hours in a variety of aircraft...

I think I'm interested in transitioning to power, which seems to be a more practical means of transportation.

There seems to be a good amount of documentation on power to glider transition, but not much the other way around.

I'm currently in the process of selecting a flight school for flight instruction and I'm working on passing my FAA exam on my own. The exam correlates well to the glider exam and other than being a little rusty and needing to learn some new material, I'm not expecting any problems.

I can't anything in FARs about any advantages afforded glider pilots in terms of flight training requirements - am I correct in the assessment that I'm starting from scratch, other than current knowledge and experience?

I'm in the Austin, TX area.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Not much counts going that way, you'll need the written and such. By requirements it is much easier to go the other way. Iirc only ten hours counts but I haven't parsed through the reg in awhile. Note where it says in an aircraft/airplane/powered aircraft for the exact answer.

 

[cb1000rider]

Maybe a large portion of the flight time does apply, except for specific requirements.

Am I reading this correctly?

Note, (k) below is an exemption related to use of simulators...
Here's what I've got:

For a powered-lift rating. Except as provided in paragraph (k) of this section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with a powered-lift category rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in Sec. 61.107(b)(5) of this part, and the training must include at least-- (1) 3 hours of cross-country flight training in a powered-lift;
(2) Except as provided in Sec. 61.110 of this part, 3 hours of night flight training in a powered-lift that includes--
(i) One cross-country flight of over 100 nautical miles total distance; and
(ii) 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport.
(3) 3 hours of flight training in a powered-lift on the control and maneuvering of a powered-lift solely by reference to instruments, including straight and level flight, constant airspeed climbs and descents, turns to a heading, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, radio communications, and the use of navigation systems/facilities and radar services appropriate to instrument flight;
[(4) 3 hours of flight training with an authorized instructor in a powered-lift in preparation for the practical test, which must have been performed within the preceding 2 calendar months from the month of the test; and]
(5) 10 hours of solo flight time in an airplane or powered-lift consisting of at least--
(i) 5 hours cross-country time;

 

[tonycondon]

you need to look at airplane rating requirements, not powered lift. i'm not even sure what the hell a powered lift aircraft is.

i trained Matt Michael through his glider to power transition. some of his time carried over but not a lot for the private airplane. the glider time is more helpful when it comes to Instrument Rating (if you have glider XC >50 miles time) and Commercial.

 

[JeffDG]

you need to look at airplane rating requirements, not powered lift. i'm not even sure what the hell a powered lift aircraft is.

i trained Matt Michael through his glider to power transition. some of his time carried over but not a lot for the private airplane. the glider time is more helpful when it comes to Instrument Rating (if you have glider XC >50 miles time) and Commercial.

Powered lift is airplanes that sometimes act like helos...like the V-22 Osprey or the AV-8 Harrier.

 

[cb1000rider]

i trained Matt Michael through his glider to power transition. some of his time carried over but not a lot for the private airplane.

How do you determine what carries and what doesn't? It's not exactly crystal clear.

 

[poadeleted20]

I can't anything in FARs about any advantages afforded glider pilots in terms of flight training requirements - am I correct in the assessment that I'm starting from scratch, other than current knowledge and experience?

While 61.63(b)(1) says you must meet all the experience requirements for a PP-ASEL, you can use your glider experience to meet some of them. So, you are not bound to get 40 hours in ASEL, and 20 hours of flight training in ASEL because they don't specify ASEL only, so your glider total experience and training can be used to meet those numbers. Where your glider experience won't fill the squares is the area which must be in an ASEL per 61.109(a):

• 3 hours night
• 3 hours dual XC
• 3 hours instrument
• 3 hours test prep
• 10 hours solo (including 5 solo XC)

In theory, you could qualify for the PP-ASEL with as little as 5 or so dual in an ASEL (depending on how much you can overlap the night, dual XC, instrument, and test prep training) and 10 hours of solo in an ASEL. As a practical matter, it will probably take you more dual time than that to reach the necessary proficiency to be permitted to fly an airplane solo and reach sufficient proficiency in all the necessary areas to be endorsed for additional category rating the practical test. My guess is you should budget somewhere around 15-20 dual and 10 solo, depending on how proficient you are now and how fast you adapt to powered airplanes.

One thing you can't get around is the requirement to take the PP-A knowledge test (see 61.63(b)(5)), but I see you're working on that already.

And if that isn't "crystal clear," please post any questions you still have.

 

[poadeleted20]

Powered lift is airplanes that sometimes act like helos...like the V-22 Osprey or the AV-8 Harrier.

As a side point, one cannot obtain an FAA powered-lift rating in the V-22, AV-8, or F-35B (STOVL variant of the F-35) because even though they meet the 14 CFR 1.1 definition of "Powered-lift," they have no FAA equivalent or type certificates. The handful of PL ratings issued to folks in the V-22 program were withdrawn for that reason. Until the FAA-certified Bell 609 hits the street, there will be no powered-lift ratings.

Powered-lift means a heavier-than-air aircraft capable of vertical takeoff, vertical landing, and low speed flight that depends principally on engine-driven lift devices or engine thrust for lift during these flight regimes and on nonrotating airfoil(s) for lift during horizontal flight.

 

[cb1000rider]

Thanks, Ron.. Crystal clear. Big help.

Note, I'm not trying to dodge the proficiency - I do have a bit of catch up and homework to do as well as prove that I am proficient and safe. It's nice to know what the requirements are, as the flight schools I've talked to have indicated that there is no transition and I'm starting essentially from zero hours.

 

[gismo]

How do you determine what carries and what doesn't? It's not exactly crystal clear.

This is the primary rule that applies. It references other requirements I've listed further down:
61.63 Additional aircraft ratings (other than for ratings at the airline transport pilot certification level).

(a) General. For an additional aircraft rating on a pilot certificate, other than for an airline transport pilot certificate, a person must meet the requirements of this section appropriate to the additional aircraft rating sought. (b) Additional aircraft category rating. A person who applies to add a category rating to a pilot certificate:
(1) Must complete the training and have the applicable aeronautical experience.
(2) Must have a logbook or training record endorsement from an authorized instructor attesting that the person was found competent in the appropriate aeronautical knowledge areas and proficient in the appropriate areas of operation.
(3) Must pass the practical test.
(4) Need not take an additional knowledge test, provided the applicant holds an airplane, rotorcraft, powered-lift, weight-shift-control aircraft, powered parachute, or airship rating at that pilot certificate level.


You would be applying for an "additional category rating" (i.e. airplane vs glider). Since you don't hold one of the ratings in item (4) you will need to pass the written "knowledge test" for ASEL-Private Pilot.


The aeronautical experience and training called out in item (1) are spelled out in 61.109:
61.109 Aeronautical experience.


(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (k) of this section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in 61.107(b)(1) of this part, and the training must include at least—
(1) 3 hours of cross-country flight training in a single-engine airplane;
(2) Except as provided in 61.110 of this part, 3 hours of night flight training in a single-engine airplane that includes—
(i) One cross-country flight of over 100 nautical miles total distance; and
(ii) 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport.
(3) 3 hours of flight training in a single-engine airplane on the control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments, including straight and level flight, constant airspeed climbs and descents, turns to a heading, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, radio communications, and the use of navigation systems/facilities and radar services appropriate to instrument flight;
(4) 3 hours of flight training with an authorized instructor in a single-engine airplane in preparation for the practical test, which must have been performed within the preceding 2 calendar months from the month of the test; and
(5) 10 hours of solo flight time in a single-engine airplane, consisting of at least—
(i) 5 hours of solo cross-country time;
(ii) One solo cross country flight of 150 nautical miles total distance, with full-stop landings at three points, and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations; and
(iii) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

Note that whenever a specific requirement doesn't include "in a single engine airplane" your glider time would apply e.g. the "40 hours of flight time" in 61.109a. A portion of the "20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor" could also be in gliders but 10 of those hours must be for items listed in 61.107b(1). I have no idea why part 61.109a includes the phrase "solo flight training time" and assume this really means "flight training" aka dual received. The rest of the requirements which are called out in 61.109a subparts 1-5 must all be done in a single engine airplane.


So by my read you'll need at least 10 hours of dual including 3hrs for XC, 3hrs at night (including 10 landings and a 100nm XC), 3hrs of instrument work, and 3hrs of pre-checkride training. That adds up to more than 10 which makes me wonder if some of it can be combined (e.g. combine part of the instrument work with the pre-checkride stuff). You'll also need the 10 hours of solo time in a single engine airplane called out in 61.109a(5) including the short and long XC plus 3 takeoffs and landings at a controlled airport.


That adds up to 20 hours (10 dual and 10 solo) but I suspect that from a practical perspective you'll need a bit more.

 

[wpierce]

The first thing you will need to do is learn proper rudder usage. Right rudder on take off and then feet flat on the floor the rest of the time, right?

 

[cb1000rider]

The first thing you will need to do is learn proper rudder usage. Right rudder on take off and then feet flat on the floor the rest of the time, right?

I've got some time in power planes, just not PIC. And yes, learning NOT to use so much rudder is an issue..

I appreciate the replies and help!

 

[poadeleted20]

I have no idea why part 61.109a includes the phrase "solo flight training time" and assume this really means "flight training" aka dual received.

Bad assumption. It really does mean solo. Ed Guthrie got a read on this from the Chief Counsel some time back, and there really is no FAA minimum total dual requirement for an additional category rating if you already have the required dual hours regardless of category in which they were received.

 

[poadeleted20]

I've got some time in power planes, just not PIC. And yes, learning NOT to use so much rudder is an issue..

Psst...he was joking...

 

[Lance F]

the glider time is more helpful when it comes to Instrument Rating (if you have glider XC >50 miles time) and Commercial.

It's quite ironic that a successful 500km triangle (a significant accomplishment in the soaring world) in a glider, counts for nothing cross country-wise with the FAA. But if you failed miserably in the attempt and landed 50 miles out, it would count.

 

[gismo]

It's quite ironic that a successful 500km triangle (a significant accomplishment in the soaring world) in a glider, counts for nothing cross country-wise with the FAA. But if you failed miserably in the attempt and landed 50 miles out, it would count.

It would count if you were going for the ATP!

 

[gismo]

Bad assumption. It really does mean solo. Ed Guthrie got a read on this from the Chief Counsel some time back, and there really is no FAA minimum total dual requirement for an additional category rating if you already have the required dual hours regardless of category in which they were received.

OK. Now I'm really confused. What does "solo flight training" mean?

 

[rottydaddy]

OK. Now I'm really confused. What does "solo flight training" mean?

It means solo (nobody else in the aircraft) time logged prior to the check ride for the rating.

 

[cb1000rider]

It's also interesting that most sailplanes are single place. There is no dual-training option on transition...

 

[rottydaddy]

It's also interesting that most sailplanes are single place. There is no dual-training option on transition...

Not only that, but technically you might start flying a single-place glider any time your instructor thinks it's OK; no ticket required. Rightfter first solo? Sure!

-mind you, you would need some dual in a 2-place first, I don't care how many power hours you have logged, or in what.-

I waited until after my check ride to fly the club's 1-seater, mostly because I figured I'd be doing the check ride in the 2-seater, and there'd be time enough later to fly the single-seater.

Also because I was a little chicken, and wanted more time under my belt.

Now that I've jumped that hurdle, looking back I think I would have been fine with it way back.

The apprehension is similar to that of the first solo- the student pilot forgets that they have already flown without any input from the instructor, or they wouldn't be turned loose to fly solo. The 1-26 and other single-seaters never would have been sold in such numbers if pilots transitioning from trainers couldn't handle them.

In the case of going from a 2-33 to a 1-26 it's different, all right, but not enough to justify the "totally badass" feeling I got from flying something that only has one seat.

Not quite the same thing as going from an AT-6 to a P-51... but it's still pretty cool.

 

[wby0nder]

riding out to the end of the runway was fun, especially in cold weather. The noise was painful. potentially running out of fuel was a scary proposition. Expecting the engine to quit any minute was unnerving. the concept of a go-around still hasn't sunk in.

 

[cb1000rider]

In the case of going from a 2-33 to a 1-26 it's different, all right, but not enough to justify the "totally badass" feeling I got from flying something that only has one seat.

I've flown both. They don't glide very well, but they're light.
I had spin training in a 2-32, which would spin like a top and wouldn't exit without a ton of forward stick.

It's not the transition from a 2-32 to a 1-26 that was scary.. It's the high performance single seaters that can be fairly different. Transition to those through higher performance 2-seat planes, I guess.

I think engine-out is a probably not as scary for a glider pilot, as by some magic the airplane keeps flying (assuming enough speed/altitude).

The go-round concept might take some getting used to.

 

[JeffDG]

In theory, you could qualify for the PP-ASEL with as little as 5 or so dual in an ASEL (depending on how much you can overlap the night, dual XC, instrument, and test prep training) and 10 hours of solo in an ASEL. As a practical matter, it will probably take you more dual time than that to reach the necessary proficiency to be permitted to fly an airplane solo and reach sufficient proficiency in all the necessary areas to be endorsed for additional category rating the practical test.

I think the most likely way to meet the requirements with the minimum hours is if you had a self-launch endorsement and routinely flew "motor gliders". The motor glider hours don't count to the ASEL requirements per-se, but the experience would certainly be transferable as skills.

One tip, though, unlike motor gliders, it's considered bad form in an ASEL to shut the fan off to get some peace-and-quiet.

 

[cb1000rider]

I think the most likely way to meet the requirements with the minimum hours is if you had a self-launch endorsement and routinely flew "motor gliders". The motor glider hours don't count to the ASEL requirements per-se, but the experience would certainly be transferable as skills.

One thing driving me toward ASEL is the non-availability of true motor gliders in my area. If I could fine a G109B (or similar) locally, I'd probably drop pursuing the ASEL. I've located one out of San Antonio used for self-launch training. The one that was local to me was sold when Grob dropped support of the motor. There are other motorgliders, but again, they're not very common. It's also better to have the advanced ASEL training, as I'm not used to flight in controlled airspace.

 

[tonycondon]

why the urge to fly motorgliders?

 

[cb1000rider]

why the urge to fly motorgliders?

1) Most (excluding high performance gliders that are true self-launch capable) motorgliders are 2-seat. I like to share.

2) Practicality: To go XC in a glider really requires some advance planning, you accept the strong possibility of landing in a field, and it's simply not a valid means of transportation. It is great recreation, but it's not really transportation.

3) In flat parts of TX, which is most of TX, thermals don't take us beyond about 6K AGL. It's hot most of the time. There really isn't a concept of getting to a comfortable cruise altitude.

 

[tonycondon]

anyone who has ever though of pure glider flight as transportation was a fool.

You're right, you arent going to fly cross country in a glider in complete climate controlled comfort like you might find in an airplane. but thats not what XC soaring is about.

 

[cb1000rider]

anyone who has ever though of pure glider flight as transportation was a fool.

I'm not sure that I indicated that glider flight was transportation, although the negative commentary is noted.

A glider license is what I've got... I'm more interested in the transportation aspect (at this point in my life) than the recreation aspect. I'm aware of what it takes to stay current and can consider that recreation. Value as transportation may be misplaced, but it's a more "practical" hobby, IMHO, than no-engine... I don't think it's any better, worse, or the same than no-engine flight.

 

[cb1000rider]

Just FYI. I passed my written test and I'm basically checked out to take my check ride. I've had quite a few problems as a transition pilot in terms of how CFIs and flight schools interpret the regs - most want to treat me like a student pilot, even though I don't hold that certificate. It really only makes a difference in terms of solo and XC policy at most flight schools, but per FAR - and with the proper endorsements - most of the trip by trip endorsement requirements are lifted.

I thought I'd mention that per the FAAs IACRA software, it's preventing me from submitting my Integrated Airman Certification and Rating application - I get a validation error indicating that 20 hours of instruction is required in an airplane... Even though I have something like 17 hours airplane instruction and another 20 hours or so in glider instruction.

I've been told to print a 8710 form and submit it manually. Of course, the risk is that if the FAA rejects it, I may be out some money in terms of cost to rent aircraft and re-take the check ride...

 

[BillTIZ]

We have a few glider to power tranistion pilots in the last few years..

Training the "Airplane" flight schools to "read the regs" is the hardest part. No.. I don't get a "student medical", I am not a student, I get a regular Class III. You do not sign me off solo under part 61.87 ...its 61.31(d)(3).

Make sure in IACRA you have indicated that it's an "additional rating", which I'm sure you have. If that did not work.. then your CFI should have called FSDO with the issue.

Either the DPE or the FSDO examiner should know the rules and definely OKC should know.. yeah right... the printed 8710 is the only way to go.

And good luck on the check ride.

 

[cb1000rider]

We have a few glider to power tranistion pilots in the last few years..

Training the "Airplane" flight schools to "read the regs" is the hardest part. No.. I don't get a "student medical", I am not a student, I get a regular Class III. You do not sign me off solo under part 61.87 ...its 61.31(d)(3).

Make sure in IACRA you have indicated that it's an "additional rating", which I'm sure you have. If that did not work.. then your CFI should have called FSDO with the issue.

Either the DPE or the FSDO examiner should know the rules and definely OKC should know.. yeah right... the printed 8710 is the only way to go.

And good luck on the check ride.

Thanks for the clarifications. It took me a while to figure out which regs applied to me.. and doing so was simply due to people like you pointing them out. I can tell you that 9/10 CFIs (and my local FSDO) restricted me under 61.87 - and I think 61.31 (d)(3) has not been deprecated as it was redundant with 61.31(d)(2). My local FSDO said that I was a student pilot...


IACRA has a software problem that is, as far as I know, undocumented. I've got a call into the FAA to try and get someone who will at least acknowledge the bug. Both my CFI and the guy giving me a check ride said that IACRA has been a software disaster and that they weren't surprised.

In particular, part of my flight training in gliders should apply to a power transition, but IACRA will not accept an application that contains under 20 hours of power-specific flight training. The regs only require 10. My choices are: paper application and hope or meet the 20 hour training requirement... And in my case, it looks like I'll just hit 20 hours.

 

[BillTIZ]

I can tell you that 9/10 CFIs (and my local FSDO) restricted me under 61.87 - and I think 61.31 (d)(3) has not been deprecated as it was redundant with 61.31(d)(2). My local FSDO said that I was a student pilot...

You can't be a "student pilot" if the FSDO looks you up in the data base and it says you are a "private pilot".

We do Power to Glider transitions all the time, and although we may treat them as students, for insurance restrictions, trust me, the DPE looks for the 61.31 signoff, not the 61.87.

And 61.31 does not have a 90 day solo limitation like 61.87. Some people think it is good for life and will always fly glider solo. But in the text, it's only good "while receiving training towards the rating". I put an expiration date next to my sig.

 

[nosehair]

I get a validation error indicating that 20 hours of instruction is required in an airplane... Even though I have something like 17 hours airplane instruction and another 20 hours or so in glider instruction.

61.109(a) "...20 hours of training from an authorized instructor..."
That would be 20 hours with an airplane flight instructor.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

61.109(a) "...20 hours of training from an authorized instructor..."
That would be 20 hours with an airplane flight instructor.

Not if you're flying a glider... Any dual done in a glider with a CFI-G, the CFI-G is an "authorized instructor."

Here's 61.109(a):

§ 61.109 Aeronautical experience.

(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (k) of this section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in §61.107(b)(1) of this part, and the training must include at least—

(1) 3 hours of cross-country flight training in a single-engine airplane;

(2) Except as provided in §61.110 of this part, 3 hours of night flight training in a single-engine airplane that includes—

(i) One cross-country flight of over 100 nautical miles total distance; and

(ii) 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport.

(3) 3 hours of flight training in a single-engine airplane on the control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments, including straight and level flight, constant airspeed climbs and descents, turns to a heading, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, radio communications, and the use of navigation systems/facilities and radar services appropriate to instrument flight;

(4) 3 hours of flight training with an authorized instructor in a single-engine airplane in preparation for the practical test, which must have been performed within the preceding 2 calendar months from the month of the test; and

(5) 10 hours of solo flight time in a single-engine airplane, consisting of at least—

(i) 5 hours of solo cross-country time;

(ii) One solo cross country flight of 150 nautical miles total distance, with full-stop landings at three points, and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations; and

(iii) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

Emphasis mine - Note that (1) through (5) each specify that they must be conducted in a single-engine airplane, while (a) itself, where the 40 total and 20 training hours are shown, does not. Thus, the 40 hours total and 20 of dual do NOT need to be in a single-engine airplane - If they did, they'd have specified it right up top and not bothered writing it into all the subparagraphs.

So, someone who has 26 hours of dual in a glider could theoretically finish the PP-ASEL in 14 hours by flying 10 hours solo (including 5 hours of 50+nm XC, 3 TO/L at a controlled field, and the long XC) and then doing 4 hours of dual as follows: Dual XC to someplace an hour and 100+ nm away at night under the hood, pull the hood off and do 9 stop-and-go's in the 2nd hour, hood back on for the hour return flight, land. Go up again for 1 more hour of hood time with unusual attitudes, and you're good to go, provided you do at least 3 of the 4 hours of dual within 90 days of the checkride.

Realistic? Hell no.
Any CFI that would even do it if there WAS a student who could? Highly doubtful.
Fit the letter of the law? Yup.

 

[gismo]

Thanks for the clarifications. It took me a while to figure out which regs applied to me.. and doing so was simply due to people like you pointing them out. I can tell you that 9/10 CFIs (and my local FSDO) restricted me under 61.87 - and I think 61.31 (d)(3) has not been deprecated as it was redundant with 61.31(d)(2). My local FSDO said that I was a student pilot...


IACRA has a software problem that is, as far as I know, undocumented. I've got a call into the FAA to try and get someone who will at least acknowledge the bug. Both my CFI and the guy giving me a check ride said that IACRA has been a software disaster and that they weren't surprised.

In particular, part of my flight training in gliders should apply to a power transition, but IACRA will not accept an application that contains under 20 hours of power-specific flight training. The regs only require 10. My choices are: paper application and hope or meet the 20 hour training requirement... And in my case, it looks like I'll just hit 20 hours.

If I were you, I'd pick a DPE right now and start conversing about what he things you will need. Your best choice would probably be a DPE that's also a sailplane pilot and/or glider DPE as well as a DPE for airplanes. Perhaps someone in your local glider community could make a recommendation.

There's absolutely no reason (including CFIs and flight schools who don't know the regs) for you to be concerned about whether or not you will be allowed to complete the flight test when the day for that arrives.

 

[nosehair]

(a) itself, where the 40 total and 20 training hours are shown, does not. Thus, the 40 hours total and 20 of dual do NOT need to be in a single-engine airplane - If they did, they'd have specified it right up top and not bothered writing it into all the subparagraphs.

The 20 hours is with an authorized instructor which means, in this paragraph which is for a PP airplane single engine, the authorized instructor has to be an airplane single engine instructor. The subparagraphs parse out how some of this time must be accomplished, but not all of it.

 

[Lance F]

The 20 hours is with an authorized instructor which means, in this paragraph which is for a PP airplane single engine, the authorized instructor has to be an airplane single engine instructor. The subparagraphs parse out how some of this time must be accomplished, but not all of it.

Sorry, but I have direct and personal experience that your position just isn't true. Kent's description is correct. I have no doubt that IACRA won't accept this, but that's a problem with IACRA. It is not what the FAR's say or what a knowledgeable DPE (or FSDO) will accept.
I'm not going to get into a thread war, so if anyone needs specifics please PM me.

 

[BillTIZ]

The 20 hours is with an authorized instructor which means, in this paragraph which is for a PP airplane single engine, the authorized instructor has to be an airplane single engine instructor. The subparagraphs parse out how some of this time must be accomplished, but not all of it.

No... I believe you are incorrect.

 

[nosehair]

Sorry, but I have direct and personal experience that your position just isn't true.

What you have is personal experience with flight schools and DPEs misreading and applying the FARs.

The term "authorized instructor" means an instructor with the rating for which the training is. Did I say that right?

As an example, the new Sport Pilot Instructor rating is not an "authorized instructor" for the PP rating.

A CFI-G cannot provide any of the 20 hours required for a PP airplane rating.

It has long been a problem with DEs not being able to de-code the category requirements.

The term "authorized instructor" is a relatively new term. It used to just say flight instructor, so then you could wiggle around that term, but the language of the entire paragraph of 61.109(a) starts with the term Airplane Single-engine Land: "This is what you need for a PP ASEL"

40 hours flight time - ok, we know that can be any kind of aircraft time.

Then it says "20 hrs with an authorized instructor and 10 hrs solo training in the areas listed in 61.107(b)(1)" which is Airplane Single-engine maneuvers and procedures.

So, even when it didn't say "authorized instructor", even when it only said "flight instructor", it always said "Training in the areas listed in Airplane Single-engine Maneuvers and Procedures.

Big Mill Pilot schools, individual FBOs, and DPEs, and FAA Inspectors around the country tend to interpret that rule in such a way as to only count the subparagraphs that specify the x/c, night and so forth, so you have seen it happen.

So have I - many times.

But now~ IACRA has control.

 

[tonycondon]

But now~ IACRA has control.

i haven't read enough to make a judgement on this particular discussion, but i know for a fact I have found peculiar corners of the regs where IACRA is wrong. The most recent was for a commercial glider add on student who had the 20 solo flights but less than 3 hrs of solo time. The regs say one or the other but IACRA would not accept anything less than 3 hrs. The recommendation from the FSDO was to either do a paper 8710 or lie and put 3 hrs in IACRA. I can't remember which we did.