Glider PPL > ASEL endorsements

[LifeAsBen]

I'm working with a student who has a PPL Glider certificate and wants to add on a ASEL rating. I've been able to find an endorsement in Circular 61-64H that I'll need to give him so he can make solo flights. From my research this is the only endorsement he needs, is that correct?

If you're curious what the endorsement reads like, here it is:

I certify that [First name, MI, Last name] has received the training as required by § 61.31(d)(2) to serve as a pilot in command in a [specific category and class] of aircraft. I have determined that [he or she] is prepared to solo that [make and model] aircraft. Limitations: [optional].
​

It's my understanding too that the 90 day solo limit does not apply because he is a Private Pilot not a Student Pilot, so he does not need an endorsement every 90 days (although I'll place a time limit in the limitations).

Additionally I'm unclear whether I need to administer a pre-solo written test?

 

[MauleSkinner]

Which parts of the regs that say “student pilot” are you choosing to apply, which ones are you choosing not to apply, and how do you decide which is which?

 

[Lindberg]

None of the stuff for student pilots apply to him. But he does need a current flight review in a glider if that's his only rating.

 

[MauleSkinner]

None of the stuff for student pilots apply to him. But he does need a current flight review in a glider if that's his only rating.

So solo time is not required?

 

[LifeAsBen]

Which parts of the regs that say “student pilot” are you choosing to apply, which ones are you choosing not to apply, and how do you decide which is which?

He's a PPL so I assume, from what others have posted online, none of the Student Pilot requirements apply.

 

[Lindberg]

So solo time is not required?

I don't know what you're asking.

 

[LifeAsBen]

None of the stuff for student pilots apply to him. But he does need a current flight review in a glider if that's his only rating.

Thanks, yes thanks I was aware of this...found a FAA Letter of Interpretation regarding this. For other's benefit also researching this topic here is a link to the letter.

 

[RussR]

It's my understanding too that the 90 day solo limit does not apply because he is a Private Pilot not a Student Pilot, so he does not need an endorsement every 90 days (although I'll place a time limit in the limitations).

Yes, you definitely should. 90 days has obvious precedence and is reasonable. Otherwise he could fly solo literally for the rest of his life without ever seeing you again.

Additionally I'm unclear whether I need to administer a pre-solo written test?

As he isn't a student pilot, none of the requirements of Part 61 Subpart C apply to him. That includes the requirement for a pre-solo test.

That doesn't restrict you from making him take a pre-solo test, if that is your desire. And, honestly, since he's coming from gliders, it may not be a bad idea. Controlled airspace, for example, may be unfamiliar to him. Radio communications. Concepts like Vy and p-factor and carb heat are some other examples.

 

[Lindberg]

Airspace, communications, etc. are all the same when flying gliders and tested on the written and oral (along with other irrelevancies like VOR navigation). But if the student doesn't have any power ratings, he'll have to take an airplane knowledge written exam, so why not just have have him knock that out before solo? Should be a piece of cake.

 

[Schokie]

I did ASEL as an add on to my existing Private-Glider. I still had to take the written and my CFI endorsed my logbook for solo, XC, etc as if I was ab initio. Was it all required for my CFI? Don't know, but it was easy enough to do and didn't cost anything extra.

I also had to do the full practical checkride. The only thing the previous Glider certificate got me was a very abbreviated oral when I did the ASEL checkride. That and a sense of calm when the DPE closed the throttle for my simulated engine failure. For the checkride, I paid, he looked over my logbook, we chatted about performance charts for a bit, then went and flew the practical.

 

[Dave Anderson]

I'm working with a student who has a PPL Glider certificate and wants to add on a ASEL rating. I've been able to find an endorsement in Circular 61-64H that I'll need to give him so he can make solo flights. From my research this is the only endorsement he needs, is that correct?

If you're curious what the endorsement reads like, here it is:

I certify that [First name, MI, Last name] has received the training as required by § 61.31(d)(2) to serve as a pilot in command in a [specific category and class] of aircraft. I have determined that [he or she] is prepared to solo that [make and model] aircraft. Limitations: [optional].
​

It's my understanding too that the 90 day solo limit does not apply because he is a Private Pilot not a Student Pilot, so he does not need an endorsement every 90 days (although I'll place a time limit in the limitations).

Additionally I'm unclear whether I need to administer a pre-solo written test?

I did the full PPL-G to Sport Pilot and that just required some hours and a sign-off from a secondary CFI. However, I was told that if I want to do ASEL that I would have to do the written and full check-ride. A few others have said I don't have to do the written but do have to meet the requirements and full checkride. As a glider, unless you have done self-launch (which I did) you rarely have enough cross country time.

The FAA isn't very clear and logical (surprise)
Other fun facts:
As a glider pilot, I can fly above 10,000 feet and at night.
As a sport, I cannot.

 

[Dave Anderson]

I did ASEL as an add on to my existing Private-Glider. I still had to take the written and my CFI endorsed my logbook for solo, XC, etc as if I was ab initio. Was it all required for my CFI? Don't know, but it was easy enough to do and didn't cost anything extra.

I also had to do the full practical checkride. The only thing the previous Glider certificate got me was a very abbreviated oral when I did the ASEL checkride. That and a sense of calm when the DPE closed the throttle for my simulated engine failure. For the checkride, I paid, he looked over my logbook, we chatted about performance charts for a bit, then went and flew the practical.

I didn't have to do the full checkride per the FSDO and local DPE. I did have to have sign-off from my sport instructor then have another instructor basically go through the checkride like a DPE but a DPE wasn't required.

 

[Dave Anderson]

He's a PPL so I assume, from what others have posted online, none of the Student Pilot requirements apply.

But don't you have to meet these for the DPE Checkride? Not enough solo or cross country seems like a grey area.

 

[RussR]

But don't you have to meet these for the DPE Checkride? Not enough solo or cross country seems like a grey area.

There's no gray (grey? I never know which one is correct) area. Solo and cross-country time requirements are not "student pilot" requirements, they are "Private Pilot" requirements, meaning "required experience to become a Private Pilot". Yes you meet them as a Student Pilot, but they fall under Subpart E, the solo time and XC and night time and all that. Subpart C pertains to Student Pilots and none of that applies.

61.63a requires that since this is an additional category of aircraft, all the requirements of 61.109 must be met.

 

[Dave Anderson]

There's no gray (grey? I never know which one is correct) area. Solo and cross-country time requirements are not "student pilot" requirements, they are "Private Pilot" requirements, meaning "required experience to become a Private Pilot". Yes you meet them as a Student Pilot, but they fall under Subpart E, the solo time and XC and night time and all that. Subpart C pertains to Student Pilots and none of that applies.

61.63a requires that since this is an additional category of aircraft, all the requirements of 61.109 must be met.

i was meaning those above that said it wouldn’t be required. You have to meet the standards period.

 

[LifeAsBen]

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful comments and advice. I have reached out to the local FSDO to confirm what I've learned here and I'll report back if I discover anything contradictory to what has been discussed.

Here are the limitations I plan to place on my student's (who is not a student pilot...so confusing!) endorsement:

• VFR day flight only;
• expires in 90 days;
• direct x-wind of less than 10kts;
• limited to flight in class G and E airspace;
• flights prohibited to other airports unless handheld radio installed, verified working, (we're training in a Cub)
• flights within 25nm only of originating airport
• may not carry passengers

Any other suggestions? I will adjust these limits as his training progresses. When you really consider for a minute if none of the student pilot regs apply he could take off, with a passenger and cruise the country indefinitely (as long as he has a current BFR) without these limitations.

Edit: I'll leave the "not carry passengers" for clarity but it is a solo endorsement and by definition precludes carrying passengers.

 

[skier]

The FAA isn't very clear and logical (surprise)
Other fun facts:
As a glider pilot, I can fly above 10,000 feet and at night.
As a sport, I cannot.

As a glider pilot you can also fly IFR if you have an IFR rating. As a sport pilot you cannot.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/GL_7110.11.pdf

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/61.57

 

[MauleSkinner]

flights prohibited to other airports unless handheld radio installed, verified working, (we're training in a Cub)

Why?

 

[RussR]

Here are my thoughts on each limitation:

VFR day flight only;

Seems reasonable.

expires in 90 days;

Also reasonable

direct x-wind of less than 10kts;

Worded strangely. "Direct" crosswind? I think you mean "crosswind component less than 10 knots", which seems reasonable for someone who's already a pilot. But "direct crosswind" could be interpreted multiple other ways.

limited to flight in class G and E airspace;

Why? Well, I think I understand what you're trying to do, but "if" the person is already qualified on communications (which I was told above that they should be as a glider pilot), then I see no reason to restrict them.

flights prohibited to other airports unless handheld radio installed, verified working, (we're training in a Cub)

I have a hard time figuring out which side of this I'm on. On the one hand, I absolutely think every plane out there should have a radio. On the other hand, until that's a regulation, I don't want anybody telling me I need to comply with a rule that doesn't exist.

flights within 25nm only of originating airport

I see no reason for this. He is a certified pilot (in gliders). He is allowed to fly further than that in gliders. I actually think it's likely that a glider pilot is far better at "not getting lost" than most powered pilots.

may not carry passengers

That is already covered by 61.57 and the definition of PIC in 1.1, and doesn't need to be here.

 

[TommyG]

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful comments and advice. I have reached out to the local FSDO to confirm what I've learned here and I'll report back if I discover anything contradictory to what has been discussed.

Here are the limitations I plan to place on my student's (who is not a student pilot...so confusing!) endorsement:

• VFR day flight only;
• expires in 90 days;
• direct x-wind of less than 10kts;
• limited to flight in class G and E airspace;
• flights prohibited to other airports unless handheld radio installed, verified working, (we're training in a Cub)
• flights within 25nm only of originating airport
• may not carry passengers

Any other suggestions? I will adjust these limits as his training progresses. When you really consider for a minute if none of the student pilot regs apply he could take off, with a passenger and cruise the country indefinitely (as long as he has a current BFR) without these limitations.

Edit: I'll leave the "not carry passengers" for clarity but it is a solo endorsement and by definition precludes carrying passengers.

I think that’s a bit much on the endorsements. If you explain to him his limitations, and you don’t trust him to not do what you explained. You shouldn’t teach him.