Girl taken off flight for crying too much

[RogerT]

http://www.telegram.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070121/COLUMN01/701210459/1008/NEWS02?page1


I don't mean this as a troll - I really don't - but I am the stereotypical guy who is always sitting directly in front of this girl - usually on a red eye flight. "The passengers were quite understanding"? Yeah, right. Sure, for every one that was offering a lollipop there were three who would gladly offer to spank her or lead her to her new seat in that little coat closet in first class.

I know, I know...karma... Just feeling in an evil mood today

I had a similar situation on Continental coming back from Miami last month. A young boy (3 or so) was having a melt down and wouldn't get in his seat for
his mother. The father exchanged seats with the mother and placed
the kid in the seat. Two of the flight attendants (obviously parents) came
over talked to the kid, brought him a snack, and helped diffuse the
situation by distracting him. They sure didn't throw the family off the
plane, they just helped out. A far more professional approach than
AirTran.

RT

 

[ReverendSlappy]

there is someone for everyone.

Apparently. Because in this case, it was more as though there were two for both of them.

(Okay, that's just mean. I'm sorry.)

 

[jshawley]

When our sons would mis-behave, we would have them drop their trousers, hold their ankles, and look ahead. Sometimes the swats would be hard, sometimes not-so-hard, depending on the circumstances.

Swats were not always what they needed; one time I had them hold their .22-long single-shot rifles over their heads for unbearable lengths of time. Long story. Safety wasn't a question, just lack of sense of proper timing.

I suspect a major issue is nowadays most parents live in abject fear of publicly disciplining their children: Wrong place, wrong time, and Family Services is taking their kids away. Parents are in a conundrum any more. Can't win for losing, really. If they use what has, for centuries, been accepted as proper, loving, corporal punishment, they get hauled before the judge; if they try the Platonic method of trying to reason (with little savages, really), the kids don't listen and too much time expires, and the adults get restless. What's a parent to do??? (Strictly rhetorical, BTW).

Of course, on the other end of the spectrum are the kids who never get to be kids; Already attending professional _______ball camps and they can't even walk (much less run) and memorizing the UCLA playbook (no matter they haven't yet learned to read), or being forced into some high pressure track in order to bet them ready for college (even though they have never played hop-scotch or jacks or ...). Kids are entering this world with 2 1/2 strikes against them. Sigh.

Jim

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Also remember, that I have seen many children raised from the womb to about 5 years old and with the strict technique, none of them had these "Brain Locks." Funny that these brain locks didn't happen in the 50s when physical punishment was more popular.

But, have you seen those kids 24/7 until they were 5? How do you know they never threw a tantrum where they were unresponsive?

Of course, there are gonna be kids out there that are little angels. There are also gonna be kids where the best parents in the world can't control them. I'm reminded of a time where there was a kid with some apparently unrelated adults near a "fun park" who was screaming and crying and yelling "call the police! Call the police!" So I did, and when the police arrived, it turned out that the adults were some sort of social worker types who were in fact responsible for the kid, and then the kid started crying more and screaming "Why did you call the police?" Obviously some severe mental problems. It was really sad.

I would believe that in the 50's there weren't as many problems because people would always remove the kid from the room. Just like how people wouldn't talk on the phone in the freaking bathroom. When did that become OK anyway?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I'm actually with Mr. Metzinger on this one. I haven't the slightest clue what I would do in the same situation -- though clearly leaving the plane is the most sensible solution, in my mind

"Elly, you be quiet and sit in your seat this instant, or we're going to take you off the plane! (and have to stay in Florida an extra day...)"

Gee, I wonder why they couldn't control the kid. I'd have kept screaming too!

 

[kevin47881]

Add me and Debbie to those who don't have, nor really want, kids. Hell, I'll be 40 in a couple weeks and really don't cherish the thought of going to my kids high school graduation pushing a walker

 

[wsuffa]

Having sat on a 3-1/2 hour flight (coach) with the brat in the seat behind me putting his feet up on the back of the seat and kicking, I think there ought to be a "family" section on airplanes. Control 'em or put 'em there. I always wonder what "wrong" button they'll push as they run up and down the aisle.

OTOH, probably the single worse thing was flying back from Paris in Business class one time... a girl across the aisle had a cat in a cage under the seat. The cat yeowled the entire 8+ hour trip. That was really, really unpleasant.

 

[woodstock]

There is that too!

I'm a really energetic person but I think a toddler would exhaust me at this point. Mentally and physically. (mentally as in - you mean I CAN'T sit down with a book for an hour when I get up each morning?)

 

[woodstock]

Having sat on a 3-1/2 hour flight (coach) with the brat in the seat behind me putting his feet up on the back of the seat and kicking, I think there ought to be a "family" section on airplanes. Control 'em or put 'em there. I always wonder what "wrong" button they'll push as they run up and down the aisle.

OTOH, probably the single worse thing was flying back from Paris in Business class one time... a girl across the aisle had a cat in a cage under the seat. The cat yeowled the entire 8+ hour trip. That was really, really unpleasant.

poor kitty's ears probably hurt.

 

[wsuffa]

poor kitty's ears probably hurt.

MY ears hurt.

The cat was yeowling before we left the gate.

 

[SCCutler]

Employee of mine flew to SAN a few months back, taking along his daughter (2-ish) to see Grandma. She started screaming as soon as they took off. Not tantrum-I-want-something screaming, but blood-curdling, back-arched, manic screaming. Seems likely that she was in pain, as she'd had a cold and probably should not have been flying ("...but I already paid for the ticket...").

At destination, flight attendant told him it had been the worst flight of her 15-year career- he agreed, apologized.

He and his daughter have a special relationship; but there was nothing he could do (and lordy, he tried). He said he has never felt so bad for all the people around him.

Three days later, time to fly home, they walk down the jetway, she sees the airplane door- it started all over. Agents had been alerted to watch for it, amde immediate call: not flying today. They did agree that his non-refundable ticket would be honored next day, but that he'd better get her to a doc to have her checked and have a plan of action.

Don't know if they used Benadryl or what, maybe sedative, but got her home next day, asleep most of the way.

He could have beaten her until his hand and her butt were both blue, would not have helped.

Nick, I knew a lot more about parenting before I had kids, too.

 

[James_Dean]

I agree. Get them all off the plane. Children can be controlled, easily, it just takes a parent who is not afraid to punish their child when they misbehave. Maybe the movie theaters are next. Would be nice to see a movie without hearing a screaming kid that the parent is doing NOTHING about.

Get 'em off the airlines, get 'em out of the theaters. Teach parents that physical punishment works.

I think a letter congratulating the airline's deicison is in order.

Sorry Nick, but.


Waaaaa haaaa haaaa haaaa. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. He he he he he. Snort. Waaaaaaaaa. Ohhhhhhh. Uhhhhhhhh. Wheeeeeeeeeew. Waaaa haaa haaa haaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

**Grabs side in horrible laughing discomfort**


Wait until you have kids.


James Dean

 

[TMetzinger]

Ok - my opinion is worthless. Remember, as a non father (yet) I am on the other end of people's tantruming kids.

Also remember, that I have seen many children raised from the womb to about 5 years old and with the strict technique, none of them had these "Brain Locks." Funny that these brain locks didn't happen in the 50s when physical punishment was more popular.

FWIW - many child psychiatrists are the ones causing most of the problems, so I don't put much into their opinions.

Time out. Awesome.

You've seen how many kids 24 hours a day? As I said, it's a rare occurence.

The psychiatrist in question believes in spanking, by the way. And according to some grandparents, "brain locks" occured back in the 50s too, but kids spent a lot more time at home too and weren't seen as much.

 

[AuntPeggy]

Children who cannot control themselves well enough to sit in an airplane seat quietly when told are brats and should be disciplined.

Children who hit other people are exhibiting disrespectful and abusive behavior.

Children who are unruly on airplanes and not disciplined on an airplane should be removed in as prompt and discrete method as possible.

Adults who cannot provide guidance to children on an airplane promptly and discretely should be removed from the airplane along with the children and their belongings.

Adults who cannot control a child without resorting to violence should be removed in handcuffs and spend some time learning the meaning of discipline, not punishment.

Hitting a child is child abuse. Children do not understand why they are being abused. All they know is that they are getting hit and it is OK.

Let me also add, Never, ever shake a child. I would have one more living grandchild than I do now if someone had not shaken a hysterical two-year-old for no more than 10 seconds to get him quiet.

 

[CowboyPilot]

I agree. Get them all off the plane. Children can be controlled, easily, it just takes a parent who is not afraid to punish their child when they misbehave. Maybe the movie theaters are next. Would be nice to see a movie without hearing a screaming kid that the parent is doing NOTHING about.

Get 'em off the airlines, get 'em out of the theaters. Teach parents that physical punishment works.

I think a letter congratulating the airline's deicison is in order.

-JD

 

[CowboyPilot]

hey, I'm not alone after all!

Hell, no, you're not alone!

We don't have kids and that is by 100% choice.

At restaurants, we don't ask for the "no smoking" section (neither of us smoke), we ask for the "no children" section. We don't go to the movies anymore because of the freaking infants/toddlers that dumbass parents drag everywhere instead of hiring a babysitter the way things were done way back when.

We damn near don't go to the mass retailers anymore because of the brats running up and down the aisles with their oblivious parents off talking on their cell phones and ignoring their little PITAs.

I'm one that doesn't hesitate to tell a kid who's running up and down a grocery store aisle to "knock that **** off, right now, mister and go find your mom or dad and STAY WITH THEM!!!"

And yeah, I've had more than one would-be "bad ass" parent come looking for me in the store all full of whiz and vinegar with thoughts of lecturing me (or worse, ) But that's when I tell them that THEY need an ass-whipping even more than their brat, punky kid(s) do because a child's behavior is a direct result of their upbringing and a reflection on "I don't give a damn" parents who are too permissive and epitomize "spare the rod and spoil the child."

Do I hate kids? Nope. Do I hate bad parents? With a vengeance.

Remember: I spent a career arresting the by-product of bad parenting.

Since retiring, I've tripled the number of kids needing chemotherapy that I fly to various donating hospitals. My wife and I continue to volunteer at a secure, safe-house haven for battered women, many of whom have children who are scared to death of "daddy" or "boyfriend" finding them and beating/abusing them again.

I have a huge soft spot for good kids who are WELL-BEHAVED. But I have zero tolerance for kids who are brats and whose parents have the laissez-faire attitude of "oh well, kids will be kids--they'll grow out of it" or "when they get tired, they'll quit screaming."

Not everyone has kids and not everyone enjoys kids and for damned sure, not everyone understands all this crap about kids misbehaving. But what IS understood is when parents respect those around them by controlling their children's behavior.

-JD

 

[Henning]

Children can be controlled, easily,

it just takes a parent who is not afraid to punish their child when they misbehave.

Yeah, that takes care of it. They scream louder and you get a visit from child services and a court date as they walk away with the screaming kid. Ok I guess you're right, that would take care of the problem

 

[Henning]

Well you have my support. Thank goodness for cats and nieces.

I hear that. My luck with women would lead to my kids in a single parent situation and I don't like that either.

 

[Henning]

Funny that these brain locks didn't happen in the 50s when physical punishment was more popular.

And your recollections of the 50s consist of what memories? I do agree though that Dr. Spock has ruined 2 generations.

 

[Henning]

I haven't the slightest clue what I would do in the same situation --.

I do. I'd grab her in a full bind hug restricting her limbs and hold my hand with a piece of cloth over her mouth as a muffler forcing her to breath through her nose. The extra tension this creates in the lungs causes a basal mental reaction which breaks the brain lock. Used it on my 3 year old nephew who would have melt downs around bed time. Worked pretty well and usually takes less than 15 seconds to take effect and another 45 to completely fade. 30 seconds later he'd be fast asleep. Yes, I was the babysitting uncle for my three sister in laws.

 

[woodstock]

what is the brain lock you are referring to above? I guess I haven't been around kids enough - is that a good thing?

 

[silver-eagle]

There is no "one way" to deal with a misbehaving child. A spanking does not need to be painful or injurious to be effective. It's their undivided attention you're after, not pain. Besides, how hard would you have to deliver a slap on the childs bottom when they're wearing what amounts to as a down pillow?
Sometimes a time out, sometimes a reward, sometimes a spanking. All are effective. A good parent learns with the child which works best for what situation.
Tantrums are best dealt with by removing the child from the situation. Ignoring them compleely NEVER works.
And short of child abuse, the government needs to stay out of parenting. Teach effective parenting. Don't inhibit parents from using all the tools. Define child abuse (bruising) and deal with it.
Remember though, EVERYBODY is half a step away from a meltdown. Learn to deal with it.

 

[EdFred]

Tranquilizers.

 

[ScottM]

The worst kid flight experience I had was coming back on a red eye from Hawaii. I was in first class and the arrangement was 2-2-2 seating in the two seats behind me was mom, a young, 4 year old at best, girl and dad. Since the little girl did not have a seat she was constantly banging on my seat and making a ruckus. After dinner I wanted to go to sleep and let the parents know that I was going to be putting my seat back. This would have eliminated any room for the kid. Well they started getting the kid ready for bed and she broke away and began running naked through first class screaming.

I got up and went and stood in the galley (pre-911). The flight attendants let me know that was not a good thing as they wanted to go to sleep too and I explained I was just waiting for the kid to zonk out. The FAs really wanted to go tell the parents to shut the kid up but I knew the kid was going to pass out soon so I told them to wait. They eventually intervened.

Well it turns out the parents did have a third seat reserved but just were not using it. It was in another aisle. Instead of mom or dad and the kid sitting behind me they all piled into the two seats. So the FAs gave me there extra seat and that left mine up and out of the way for the kid to sleep on the floor in front of mom and dad. But mom and dad were clueless about the annoyance their brat was causing. I heard from the other pax that they had been complaining and wondering how I was standing having the kid right behind me.

 

[Bill]

Hell, I'll be 40 in a couple weeks and really don't cherish the thought of going to my kids high school graduation pushing a walker

I'm 44, Holly is 4, do the math. Ugh, early retirement? Hahahaha....*sniff*

 

[alaskaflyer]

Hell, no, you're not alone!


At restaurants, we don't ask for the "no smoking" section (neither of us smoke), we ask for the "no children" section. We don't go to the movies anymore because of the freaking infants/toddlers that dumbass parents drag everywhere instead of hiring a babysitter the way things were done way back when.



-JD

Bingo!!

How do preteen kids make any money when there is no grass to mow or snow to shovel these days?? Beats me...no one seems to use babysitters any more.

 

[ScottM]

We don't go to the movies anymore because of the freaking infants/toddlers that dumbass parents drag everywhere instead of hiring a babysitter the way things were done way back when.

My dad refused to take me to restaurants until I could behave. he would actually tell me this when I was little. This made it a challenge to me to worthy enough to go with him to restaurants.

The movie thing has me puzzled, why do parents bring kids to 9pm R rated movies at all?? Leave the kid at home with a sitter. I hear things like "we deserve a night out too". Well you chose to have kids and that means you do not get to do all those things like you used to anymore. If you want to go out make the arrangements to go out without the kid or if you take the kid go to kid appropriate places.

 

[Bill]

Let me also add, Never, ever shake a child. I would have one more living grandchild than I do now if someone had not shaken a hysterical two-year-old for no more than 10 seconds to get him quiet.

That's just plain sad, I'm sorry, Peggy.

 

[judypilot]

Well you have my support. Thank goodness for cats and nieces.

Or dogs and nieces. Never wanted kids, and at 56, have no regrets. Be glad you pups who've decided not to have kids are making the decision now and not 40 years ago, like I did. Back then, the idea of a woman deciding she didn't want kids was heresy. I can't tell you how much abuse I got (not from my family, interestingly enough, but from others). I'll never forget the "you owe it to society because you're smart and relatively affluent" arguments, which I thought were essentially racist. Then there was the colleague who should have known better (BS Harvard, PhD Univ. Chicago) telling me I couldn't be a "complete woman" if I didn't have kids. I told her my husband thought I was pretty complete!

I think there are a lot of childless and one-child (by choice) people out there.

Judy

 

[Bill]

There is no "one way" to deal with a misbehaving child. A spanking does not need to be painful or injurious to be effective. It's their undivided attention you're after, not pain. Besides, how hard would you have to deliver a slap on the childs bottom when they're wearing what amounts to as a down pillow?

Man, is that so every true. Sometimes just saying "Do I have to count?" Sometimes I start the count, sometimes I get to 5, and a little spank is needed.

The hardest times are when the child is obviously very tired, and you get that brain lock type thing, and punishment just doesn't work, at least with Holly. In those times, I've gotten the best sucess with hugs and loving. Hard to do when you're mad and fustrated, but some firm hugs, and telling her to relax and take deep breaths works. Small caring things, like helping her blow her nose, and wiping the tears from her cheeks helps as well.

But, you have to know when to try love vs. punishment, and to try and figure out when they're "playing opossum," so to speak. Ain't easy.

What is hard is trying to keep them in line without crushing the spirit of individuality. My parents were very strict, and put us in line at the slightest deviation from perfect behaviour. Now, as an adult, I'm very reserved and subdued in most social situations. Is that the way I was born, or is that due to being smacked down anytime I showed some spirit and individuality? I don't know, but I struggle with that greatly with Holly.

Nick, take the hardest thing you've ever done, multiply it by an order of magnitude or two, and you're approaching childrearing.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I'll never forget the "you owe it to society because you're smart and relatively affluent" arguments, which I thought were essentially racist.

While I don't believe smart people should be forced to have kids, it sure would be a good thing for our society. The dumbasses are having a higher and higher proportion of the kids, and look what's happening...

 

[ScottM]

While I don't believe smart people should be forced to have kids, it sure would be a good thing for our society. The dumbasses are having a higher and higher proportion of the kids, and look what's happening...

Anti-evolutionary isn't it. We are DEVO

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The movie thing has me puzzled, why do parents bring kids to 9pm R rated movies at all?? Leave the kid at home with a sitter. I hear things like "we deserve a night out too". Well you chose to have kids and that means you do not get to do all those things like you used to anymore. If you want to go out make the arrangements to go out without the kid or if you take the kid go to kid appropriate places.

After some of the crap that babysitters have pulled in the last decade (shaking babies, putting the kids in the washing machine, blah blah blah) I don't entirely blame them for not getting a sitter, though they should maybe just rent a movie and watch it at home...

 

[HPNFlyGirl]

I don't mind kids. Just not in mass quantities.

 

[ReverendSlappy]

At restaurants, we don't ask for the "no smoking" section (neither of us smoke), we ask for the "no children" section. We don't go to the movies anymore because of the freaking infants/toddlers that dumbass parents drag everywhere instead of hiring a babysitter the way things were done way back when.

We damn near don't go to the mass retailers anymore because of the brats running up and down the aisles with their oblivious parents off talking on their cell phones and ignoring their little PITAs.

Those kinds of angering annoyances had a lot to do with where I've chosen to live: Very few kids of any age around anywhere. When I head out to the suburbs to visit my folks or hang out at my girlfriend's place, it's always refreshing to get back into the city where I know I won't have to deal with any of that, and I can eat a meal in peace without worrying about getting pelted with a tiny fistful of peas in my face, as happened once. In that instance, of course, the parents didn't say a word to me -- no I'm sorry, no embarrassed "oh my gosh", nothing -- only a disinterested, "eat your food, Carson" and apparently just thought that I should expect it.

God bless the city.

 

[woodstock]

While I don't believe smart people should be forced to have kids, it sure would be a good thing for our society. The dumbasses are having a higher and higher proportion of the kids, and look what's happening...

the rich get richer and the poor get children.. ain't we got fun?

 

[Eamon]

Well, point taken - but if the kids aren't behaving, you're not being aggressive enough. It is possible to be physical without abusive. Unfortunately, today's society seems to not understand that and cries abuse anytime a child is struck.

I agree that spanking can work better than a time out, but when the kid is having an episode is not always the time for a slap. I wish that people would chill out on the "you should never hit a child" stuff

The best way to stop a kid from an episode is to ignore them. If you or anyone gives them attention it is sometimes impossible to stop.

The problem is that most kids are never on a plane much if at all.
Then the kids grandmother dies...all of a sudden the parent is forced to take the kid on a plane for the first time.

The kid see all the people & freaks out.

The people all look at the the kid & offer candy, etc.

The parents don't know what to do because ignoring the kid in the middle of the plane is impossible especially when the Flight attendant is telling the parent to shut the kid up.

After having 3 kids, I now laugh when a kid is freaking out because I am just sooo happy it isn't my kid

My 3 were very well behaved for the most part, but any kid can get bad when shoved into a new situation.

Any person that thinks that their kid would never have an episode never had kids or beats them with a pole. There is no off switch & people have to realize that when they are out in public they will have a chance of having a run in with a child & just deal with it.

 

[Eamon]

Bingo!!

How do preteen kids make any money when there is no grass to mow or snow to shovel these days?? Beats me...no one seems to use babysitters any more.

Check you local laws regarding how old you child has to be before you leave them alone.

The world has got to the point that it is Illegal to leave your 12 yr old home alone. No way you can leave a 12 yr old baby sitter.

If an emergency happen while you are at dinner, you could face jail time.

 

[Dart]

Reading the "I'm glad I don't have kids" posts brought me back to a point in my life eleven years ago when I was there with bells on.

I was more than a little indifferent to the idea when I was young. I even married a woman who despised kids. I made sure I had all the selfish pleasures I could muster and did all I could to avoid kids (and brag about it).

Well, God had other plans. At forty I was divorcing, convicted of my sins and born-again in Jesus. I began dating a woman with two boys twelve and fourteen years old. Shortly thereafter I found myself at a high school production of "Guys and Dolls" streaming silent tears. Why? Because I had almost missed "it" and "it" turned out to be a wonderful life-changing experience. At forty-two I found myself re-married and the proud stepdad of those boys.

The reality is that it is very easy to quantify the negatives of parenthood. It can be broken down to dollars, cents, and time out of your life spent on anothers needs and desires. There is certainly expense, sacrifice, pain and disappointment involved. In the end you can't even be assured the adult version of your child will be someone to brag about. The list of "kids suck" complaints is long and makes for great cocktail party conversation fodder. (Parents have more and better ones )

The positives are not so easily enumerated. "Love, growth, sharing, family, responsibilty, rewarding" are words that pepper the conversation of someone trying to describe how they feel anchoring a real live, honest-to-goodness, family unit. They are corny, but no less real. No one should be attacked for the choice of not having children. Lord knows, we see so many who, to all apearances, should NOT have had children! But, God turns all things, even ones we don't understand, to His glory. And despite all my wicked attempts to indulge myself, Jesus never stopped calling me, and when I was ready for Him, He brought me the family I should have had but ran away from all those years back. Were they expensive? Heck yeah! Even as adults now they still cost me money. Hard work? Oh yeah! Still trying to nurse the youngest through the "I need to find myself" period of early adulthood. And they grow up way too fast!!!!

I am not writing to chastize anyone who chooses not to have children. What Judy went through is nothing short of wrong and incredibly rude. Mating is an intensely personal choice. Many who do not wish to be a family find other ways to involve themselves directly in the responsibilty of raising the next generation. I only wish to point to anyone who may be indecisive that the "no children!" camp has pithy, witty, arguments that apply particularly to our nature for self-satisfaction. The benefits of "no children" are simple to quantify. The benefits of family lie at a deeper, more intense yet subtle layer. Becoming a parent (not neccessarily a biological one!) is a life altering experiance that can not be duplicated.

I thank Jesus for the gift and priviledge of having allowed me the experiance of parenthood.

 

[Bill]

Any person that thinks that their kid would never have an episode never had kids or beats them with a pole. There is no off switch & people have to realize that when they are out in public they will have a chance of having a run in with a child & just deal with it.

Holly was 2 1/2? somthing like that, and we went into a nice Indian place for dinner one Friday night. As the hostess is showing us to the table, Holly drops to the floor and pitches a good fit, arms and legs writhing, the full monte. We just pick her up, tell the hostess we're sorry and will come back on a better day, and beat feet towards the door.

Inside the car, she pitches an even bigger one, saying she wanted to eat there. We just turn the radio on, ignored the fit, and she was fast asleep by the time we got home. Kid to bed, DiGiorno in the oven, pizza and beer that night.