GI Bill flight training halted

Velocity173

Velocity173

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Velocity173
http://www.military.com/daily-news/...lment-veterans-helicopter-flight-program.html

Well, I could see this coming. Over $500K for some students. 40 Million for two programs alone last year. I'm all about veteran's benefits but this is just abuse of the system.

60 % don't graduate and the ones that do are entering a market already saturated with 300 hr CFIs. These programs seem to be serving themselves and not the helicopter industry.
 
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Well now Congress is going to get involved with HR 476 GI Bill Education Quality Enhancement Act of 2015.

That in itself will probably kill most if not all flight training for Vets. I just found out about this a few days ago. Yes it needs more regulation but not regulated to death.

I need to get my CFII before this passes. I have not used my GI Bill for flight training at all, just a degree but I have a little entitlement left so might as well use it.

David
 
We used to get the Guidance helos down in sdl a lot. I don't necessarily blame the students but I have always felt this to be a way dirty operation in regards to the VA rules.
 
I haven't seen reports of the VA nixing fixed wing training. The community college I'm going through to get a commercial just got approval to offer rotor wing training to vets. Even piston helicopter training is silly expensive. I really doubt there's any jobs out there for newly rated helo pilots other than a few CFI slots paying starvation salaries.
 
Meh, always surprises they covered flight training anyways, lots of money, and not many people make it.
 
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Witmo said:
I haven't seen reports of the VA nixing fixed wing training. The community college I'm going through to get a commercial just got approval to offer rotor wing training to vets. Even piston helicopter training is silly expensive. I really doubt there's any jobs out there for newly rated helo pilots other than a few CFI slots paying starvation salaries.
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If you read the bill that has been introduced in the house you will see that it includes all flight training, fixed wing and rotor.

"Prohibits VA from including flight training fees in the in-state tuition and fees at public institutions of higher education (IHEs) that are covered by post-9/11 veterans' educational assistance. Requires post-9/11 veterans' educational assistance for flight training programs at public IHEs to be determined in the same manner as such assistance for education programs pursued at non-public or foreign IHEs is determined."
 
Witmo said:
I haven't seen reports of the VA nixing fixed wing training. The community college I'm going through to get a commercial just got approval to offer rotor wing training to vets. Even piston helicopter training is silly expensive. I really doubt there's any jobs out there for newly rated helo pilots other than a few CFI slots paying starvation salaries.
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Tim, unfortunately the House Bill appears to be all inclusive. It is another example of a few people messing it up for the many.

David
 
The article has been amended a couple of times. The version I just read says that it affects only two schools, and only because they couldn't meet the rule that requires only 15% of their students to be non-veterans. That rule is in place to keep mills from popping up to fleece the program. When you've got a school that has charged individual students over $500K....that's a school that's stealing from the program.

And flooding the market with low-time helicopter pilots who won't be able to find a job isn't doing the students any favors either. Anyone here remember what Silver State Helicopters did to the industry? I guess it's been a few years now, but it seems like just yesterday.
 
Is this new bill going to affect just the post-9/11 GI Bill or the previous GI Bill as well?

I might need to go get a jet type sooner than I thought!
 
Honestly, as a GI Bill eligible individual, I'm glad to see this. The post 9-11 bill, while wonderful, far exceeds the original intent. Unfortunately, I believe it to be too much of an entitlement and the transferability of it is flat out welfare. My officer peers are taking home well over $100k/year and use it to send their kids to school until it runs out and then put them on student loans to avoid any financial responsibility for educating the kids. Makes me sick. Lots of reform needed with this, to include carve outs if you graduated on scholarship or Academy, reductions if you use tuition assistance, and reinstate the member contribution.


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I'm glad to see it also. Maybe now I can get a slot in a helo school that before they wouldn't even return my calls. I'm a vet from VN ERA, but my eligibility ran out a while ago. :(
 
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Geico266 said:
I'm glad to see it also. Maybe now I can get a slot in a helo school that before they wouldn't even return my calls.
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I wouldn't count on it.

If this thing goes through a lot of those helicopter schools will shut down almost overnight.
 
TCABM said:
My officer peers are taking home well over $100k/year and use it to send their kids to school until it runs out and then put them on student loans to avoid any financial responsibility for educating the kids. Makes me sick.
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Not sure where you are trying to go with this...please explain.
 
See below.



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Fearless Tower said:
Not sure where you are trying to go with this...please explain.
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I was referring to using post 9-11 for kids schooling b/c they didn't plan the financials when the kid was born.


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Looking at how much money is stolen out of my check, I'll be glad to see it go.

Plenty more fat left on the meat, keep on chopping and downsizing.
 
TCABM said:
I was referring to using post 9-11 for kids schooling b/c they didn't plan the financials when the kid was born.


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Not sure how long you've been in, but as an officer who remembers when W signed the post-9/11 GI Bill, I know that one of the big advertising points upfront was that you could use the money for other family members. There was a big push to get people like me who were eligible for the previous GI Bill to convert over.

So I don't see how you can blame people for taking advantage of what was advertised to them.

If you already had a degree and for the past 15 years, most services have been paying for grad ed degrees on top of that, why would you not save your own money and use the GI Bill for your kids?

For the record, my kids college is funded through 529s that my wife and I (plus some contributions from grandparents) have done. I was intending to use my GI Bill for CFI and possibly a type rating when I get ready to punch out.
 
I've been in for 18.5 yrs. and wasn't eligible for Montgomery due to being a scholarship grad and used TA for my Masters.

I don't blame guys for taking advantage of a program I have grown to believe isn't good for the country overall; it's there benefit and they're using it. Both my my kids are in college, funded by 529s and scholarships. My wife got her degree using Montgomery, my Post 9-11 will most likely go unused.

I have two beefs, one is that I believe Post 9-11 is unsustainable, but I haven't really seen the financial side. The other deals with fiscal responsibility. It's hard for me to trust a guy with a unit budget if he can't run a budget at home. I've seen way too many cases of very questionable unit expenditures for unnecessary items when required purchases weren't being funded, which means he isn't upholding the stewardship of taxpayer dollars, some of which are mine.

Might just be my little microcosm but it is what it is, for me at least.

My position might be better understood over a few beers...


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I've personally instructed some vets that were sent in circles in flight schools. They believed they were being deliberately given the run-around and scheduled in such a way as to make them more likely to fail stage checks so they'd use up more of their money with the flight school. They came over to me because they figured they'd rather finish on their own dime than keep going on the hamster wheel. They finished, too. Sad to say, I think that some of those flight schools looking for Uncle Sam's money are the cause of this.
 
The problem I have is that I signed a contract that I can't make changes to but my employer can at will. My education came long before I could convert to Post 9/11 but my wife is going to grant her's to our two kids. What will it look like by the time they are able to use it? (one is 2.5 and the other is due in Aug)

Did they make a mistake when calculating the costs? Maybe but that isn't my fault or my wife's. We are forced to live by the letter of the contract. I almost able to retire so leaving isn't an option.....
 
RyanShort1 said:
I've personally instructed some vets that were sent in circles in flight schools. They believed they were being deliberately given the run-around and scheduled in such a way as to make them more likely to fail stage checks so they'd use up more of their money with the flight school. They came over to me because they figured they'd rather finish on their own dime than keep going on the hamster wheel. They finished, too. Sad to say, I think that some of those flight schools looking for Uncle Sam's money are the cause of this.
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Exactly. :yes:
 
red4golf said:
The problem I have is that I signed a contract that I can't make changes to but my employer can at will. My education came long before I could convert to Post 9/11 but my wife is going to grant her's to our two kids. What will it look like by the time they are able to use it? (one is 2.5 and the other is due in Aug)

Did they make a mistake when calculating the costs? Maybe but that isn't my fault or my wife's. We are forced to live by the letter of the contract. I almost able to retire so leaving isn't an option.....
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Nor is it a firefighters or medics fault when a station closes, nor is it a private sector guys issue when the company goes belly up.

That's life.
 
I was able to get my commercial and CFI via the GI bill in 1980. I would not be flying today if I had not been able to have assist on my lessons. Pvt 41 hours, Instrument 10 months, and CFI within 2 years. Some people do go thru all the hoops to completion.
 
Gerhardt said:
The article has been amended a couple of times. The version I just read says that it affects only two schools, and only because they couldn't meet the rule that requires only 15% of their students to be non-veterans. That rule is in place to keep mills from popping up to fleece the program. When you've got a school that has charged individual students over $500K....that's a school that's stealing from the program.

And flooding the market with low-time helicopter pilots who won't be able to find a job isn't doing the students any favors either. Anyone here remember what Silver State Helicopters did to the industry? I guess it's been a few years now, but it seems like just yesterday.
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Yeah, SSH really left a mark. I think they are right in getting involved in this. Not eliminate the program, but provide a bit more oversight to assure the program's providers are actually providing a benefit. The tax payer ate a lot of money on SSH.
 
So I'm your employer and i cut your pay and benefits and won't let you out of your commitment. Sounds like you would be understanding and continue to work hard and be happy because "that's life".

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red4golf said:
So I'm your employer and i cut your pay and benefits and won't let you out of your commitment. Sounds like you would be understanding and continue to work hard and be happy because "that's life".

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Welcome to the world of student loans as well. Like Dylan said, "You're gonna serve someone."
 
So we won't be hearing about regional airlines and their unfair contracts, the ever decreasing pay pilots receive and so on and so on?

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As a vet who is currently using the GI Bill to get his ratings, the problem is not with the current version of the benefits but with the lack of enforcement of the rules and a few shady flight schools taking advantage.
 
Got a little greedy like the electric "Hover Round" wheelchair guys and Medicare...
 
That is a major problem but at the schools i have attended, the VA monitors the costs and has even pulled their endorsement.

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So on this note, I've heard of people getting their private with the GI Bill by attending a school with a degree program that included the private as part of the degree program. Does this hold true?
 
gitmo234 said:
So on this note, I've heard of people getting their private with the GI Bill by attending a school with a degree program that included the private as part of the degree program. Does this hold true?
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Yes, the GI Bill will pay for the private as part of a degree program.
 
The problem is all about a "loophole" exploited by some schools.

All VA flight training needs to be done at approved, part 141 operations.

If this is a local flight school, then the limit per academic year is around 10,000 (it goes up a little every year). This is reasonable and is not where the problem is (and I hope it does not go away).

However, if the local flight school partners with a local college that is also approved to provide GI Bill education, then what happens is the flight school courses are part of the "professional pilot" degree program. The loophole is that there is NO limit on tuition to a school like this. It could just be an expensive school, after all, which is probably why no limit was established - if you get into an expensive school, and are taking expensive classes, then good for you - maybe you'll be a doctor or something. But if the courses are flight training, it sure can get expensive as seen in this and other articles, especially when the schools intentionally capitalize on the lack of an "upper limit" for approved colleges, as these schools have done.
 
RussR said:
The problem is all about a "loophole" exploited by some schools.

All VA flight training needs to be done at approved, part 141 operations.

If this is a local flight school, then the limit per academic year is around 10,000 (it goes up a little every year). This is reasonable and is not where the problem is (and I hope it does not go away).

However, if the local flight school partners with a local college that is also approved to provide GI Bill education, then what happens is the flight school courses are part of the "professional pilot" degree program. The loophole is that there is NO limit on tuition to a school like this. It could just be an expensive school, after all, which is probably why no limit was established - if you get into an expensive school, and are taking expensive classes, then good for you - maybe you'll be a doctor or something. But if the courses are flight training, it sure can get expensive as seen in this and other articles, especially when the schools intentionally capitalize on the lack of an "upper limit" for approved colleges, as these schools have done.
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That's why at least 15% of the students in the program are required to be non VA to demonstrate that the price isn't intentionally set high knowing that the VA will pay it. The helo training schools that have been mentioned in the press didn't have the required non VA students and never should have been paid. The VA didn't enforce the rules and some programs took advantage of it, now they want to change the rules for everybody. Why don't they just try enforcing the rules that are already in place first?
 
It's not just lack of enforcement, these schools are doing the same thing SSH did. They're over recruiting and then flooding the market with 300 hr CFIs that can't get hired. Majority of those that went to SSH never went on to fly professionally. Got some expensive ratings to fly on their off time but that's about it.
 
Where's that "pilot shortage" every flight training publication says we are alway about to have, when you need it? Sheesh. ;)
 
denverpilot said:
Where's that "pilot shortage" every flight training publication says we are alway about to have, when you need it? Sheesh. ;)
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In the helo community, the popular saying is "once the Vietnam guys retire." Yeah, they've been retiring for quite some time now and it didn't create the huge shortage everyone predicted. 9/11 and the two wars that ensued took care of most of that problem.
 
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