German WWII Marked plane down at KCGZ

Are we sure it was an accident? I think Bud Anderson is still around...do we know where he was that time? I mean, not to be accusatory, but he has a history of shooting those things down. He seems like the type that could do it again.

Or Snoopy. Wrong war, but that doghouse had a Lewis gun on top, I believe.
 
Me.262 and Bf.109 in the Deutsches Museum in Munich:

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They avoid the issue by displaying some German WW2 aircraft in the colors of other countries, such as the Ju.52 in French markings at the main museum campus, and the He.111 at Schleißheim in Spanish colors.
 
Well... the paint scheme is a fairly famous one. The JG 54 "Greenheart" scheme can be found a lot in paintings and models. Heck, I've got a ~40-year-old photo showing a Cessna 140 in similar livery. The swastika's even bigger. :)
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If someone isn't personally sensitive to the implications, such paint schemes might be attractive. Just like someone might like the "Horst Wessel Lied" Nazi song, or join a reenactor's group so they could wear a Wehrmacht uniform. Neither might be interested in complicating their lives with interpretations. Shoot, I've got a WWII Mauser rifle, complete with swastika proof stamps, hanging in my home office. War trophy brought back by a relative.

Recently completed an illustration of German WWII military flag for a project. Didn't mean I *like* swastikas. But did enjoy the challenge of the research and getting the depiction I wanted.

There are some who get upset with ANY depiction referencing WWII Germany, and I can appreciate that.
I've no problem with historically correct depictions, although I do think redactions might demonstrate better judgment. However, I avoid those who fetishize Nazis. It might be something in my genes going back to relatives being machine gunned in ditches and shoved into ovens.
 
Me.262 and Bf.109 in the Deutsches Museum in Munich:

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They avoid the issue by displaying some German WW2 aircraft in the colors of other countries, such as the Ju.52 in French markings at the main museum campus, and the He.111 at Schleißheim in Spanish colors.

That's a Me.163 Komet releasable undercarriage and a Walter HWK 109-509A rocket motor that powered the aircraft on the right flank of the Me.262. There is also a hydrazine/methanol C-Stoff fuel tank of a Komet under the horizontal stabilizer of the 262.

Looking more closely, the tail wheel of a Komet hung above the Me.262 is visible.

Nice exhibits.
 
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I've no problem with historically correct depictions, although I do think redactions might demonstrate better judgment. However, I avoid those who fetishize Nazis. It might be something in my genes going back to relatives being machine gunned in ditches and shoved into ovens.

Hiding the truth is more harmful. I believe accurate representation of the war machine used by Germany during WWII should stimulate knowledge and discussion about the evils of the Nazis. It's certainly needed to educate current generations that have an abysmal knowledge of those realities.

I find it completely disgusting and infuriating that there are individuals in the current political cesspool that carelessly label certain other individuals Nazis, Neo-Nazis, or fascists. It reveals that the speakers of those pejoratives as well as those that do not protest their use are incredibly ignorant of history.

If our society truly knew of the horrors of Babi-Yar, the murder of 425,000 Hungarian Jews at Auschwitz-Birkenau in just eight weeks between May and July 1944, and the panoply of other atrocities by Hitler's minions which killed six million members of that race, those words would have a meaning so monstrous that no one engaged in something so petty as politics could ever utter them out loud without universal condemnation.

This history must be acknowledged, even though it is uncomfortable, to use a ridiculously inadequate word.
 
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There's a lot of conversation about this plane being a replica.... it's not. It's a real FW190 A-5, N190DK, built by ARADO-FLUGZEUGWERKE GMBH in 1943. Maybe it's just me being confused when people are saying replica/rebuild.
 
It was originally a religious symbol long before the Germans adopted it. Maybe that offends people. Or maybe people are just easily offended, offended for others or look for things to be offended by

I don’t know. I just live in this world


I get this. I've been hated on for owning an older VW Beetle ... :dunno:
 
I get this. I've been hated on for owning an older VW Beetle ... :dunno:
Good thing I sold my VW "Thing" 30 years ago. They'd probably be freaking out today.
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Still have the dummy MG30 I built for it.

It's weird how people have become more sensitive to the issue...you'd expect time to soften the wounds, but it doesn't seem to be doing it. One of my friends when I was a young 'un was deeply into WWII German militaria. He built models of the tanks, he collected lead from the gun range to cast his own uniform insignia. Built a perfect replica of a Wehrmacht officer's hat. Took industrial design in college, drew an illustration of a Jagdpather tank for one of his projects (we had a discussion of the difficulty he had depicting the bogie wheels in perspective), took Army ROTC and graduated as a second lieutenant.

In Armor, of course. His M60 had a big cover over the searchlight, and he painted a set of SS runes on it. Nothing was said...even when he deployed to Germany.

He didn't buy into the Nazi ideology; he merely viewed them as the ultimate in military badassery. Which is, for a large extent, true.

Today? Huh! Man, they would have slapped him in to therapy before paint touched the first model of a Mk IV turret.

Back then, the young people viewed the German military the way today's young folks view the Empire in the Star Wars saga. No one objects to someone wearing a Darth Vader outfit; hundreds of folks have Storm Trooper armor and parade in public. But the Empire, of course, is fictional.

I usually don't sweat when someone digs up a photo of a politician in their youth in the 70s wearing a Hitler mustache or a Confederate uniform. Things were a LOT different back then. Besides, somewhere, there's a photo a certain youngster wearing that Wehrmacht officer's hat and standing in a tank turret.....

Ron "I'm a Hessian without any aggression" Wanttaja
 
It's weird how people have become more sensitive to the issue...you'd expect time to soften the wounds, but it doesn't seem to be doing it. One of my friends when I was a young 'un was deeply into WWII German militaria. He built models of the tanks, he collected lead from the gun range to cast his own uniform insignia. Built a perfect replica of a Wehrmacht officer's hat. Took industrial design in college, drew an illustration of a Jagdpather tank for one of his projects (we had a discussion of the difficulty he had depicting the bogie wheels in perspective), took Army ROTC and graduated as a second lieutenant.

In Armor, of course. His M60 had a big cover over the searchlight, and he painted a set of SS runes on it. Nothing was said...even when he deployed to Germany.

He didn't buy into the Nazi ideology; he merely viewed them as the ultimate in military badassery. Which is, for a large extent, true.
Ron, if I didn't know better I'd swear we know the same guy. Went on to command an armor brigade, I think, before retiring a few years back.
 
Ron, if I didn't know better I'd swear we know the same guy. Went on to command an armor brigade, I think, before retiring a few years back.
Nah, my buddy was four-and-out. Then he dropped his commission and became a sergeant in the National Guard. Wanted to command *a* tank, not a platoon of them.

Ron Wanttaja
 
he painted a set of SS runes on it.

He didn't buy into the Nazi ideology; he merely viewed them as the ultimate in military badassery. Which is, for a large extent, true.

I don't care how much you say you "disagree" , if you are producing, decorating with and wearing Nazi symbols, you should not be surprised when people think you are a Nazi.

I did not intend to turn "that is an accurate description of the airplane livery" into "everyone will think this pilot is a Nazi sympathizer", but if you jump to that conclusion so fast you feel the need to defend it before anyone attacks, then maybe anyone who has a problem with Nazis is right to react to the same conclusion you jumped to.

Having said that, as someone who has an idealogical issue with Nazis, in this specific case I can see an argument for leaving the livery of a historic plane historically accurate. In addition, I don't see how owning and using a Nazi Built equipment (like a Nazi Era VW Bug, though anyone who makes the accusation with a Thing or Post Nazi Bug I will automatically judge as an idiot), especially if the equiptment can continue to add value to peoples lives. But if I meet anyone who paints Nazi symbols on their Cessna, Sonex or VW Bug, I will presume they are Nazi Sympathizers and treat them accordingly.

As for their military badassery, that is a conversation I may actually enjoy, because while I will agree that (for example) the a Panzer may have been better tank than a Sherman, a Panzer was defiantly not better than 1.8 Sherman Tanks (which is what the US produced in spite of the late start). Especially when you are designing something that will be target by explosives, quantity has a quality all its own.
 
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I can see an argument for leaving the livery of a historic plane historically accurate. In addition, I don't see how owning and using a Nazi Built equipment (like a Nazi Era VW Bug, though anyone who makes the accusation with a Thing or Post Nazi Bug I will automatically judge as an idiot), especially if the equiptment can continue to add value to peoples lives. But if I meet anyone who paints Nazi symbols on their Cessna, Sonex or VW Bug, I will presume they are Nazi Sympathizers and treat them accordingly.

I think if you leave off the historically accurate markings to avoid offending somebody, then you trivialize it at a time when people should remember (and emotionally react to) what those markings meant in the context of their own time.

I have a good friend who is one of the first Russian Jews to emigrate when the Soviet Union started letting them leave in the 1980s. Most of his family (his parent's generation) were killed in the Holocaust. His first job in the US was in the office where I worked. Not long after he arrived, I had a model airplane magazine with a picture of a FW-190 (accurately painted, of course) on the cover on my desk, and he asked in amazement, "Why would anybody build a fascist model?" I explained about the scale modeling scene and importance of historical accuracy, and appreciating the engineering skill of the design (we're both engineers) while still condemning the regime, and despite his marginal English I guess he understood.
 
…It's weird how people have become more sensitive to the issue...you'd expect time to soften the wounds, but it doesn't seem to be doing it….

Now that very few people have to worry about their next meal, having a roof over their heads, etc. there is a large amount of excess energy and idle time available to be “outraged” at whatever you disagree with.
 
That's a Me.163 Komet releasable undercarriage and a Walter HWK 109-509A rocket motor that powered the aircraft on the right flank of the Me.262. There is also a hydrazine/methanol C-Stoff fuel tank of a Komet under the horizontal stabilizer of the 262.

Looking more closely, the tail wheel of a Komet hung above the Me.262 is visible.

Nice exhibits.
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In addition, I don't see how owning and using a Nazi Built equipment (like a Nazi Era VW Bug, though anyone who makes the accusation with a Thing or Post Nazi Bug I will automatically judge as an idiot), especially if the equiptment can continue to add value to peoples lives.
I agree with everything else in your post. But on this, I want to point out that a Nazi-era VW was almost certainly built with slave labor, including POWs, concentration-camp prisoners, and children, who were given the choice of work or death, in a system that was in some ways more brutal than slavery in the US. I think it's perfectly clear why some might be offended to see someone taking pleasure from the output of that.
 
I don't care how much you say you "disagree" , if you are producing, decorating with and wearing Nazi symbols, you should not be surprised when people think you are a Nazi…

Eh, that speaks to Idiocracy more than anything else. If someone wants me to respect their opinion, they better come educated and not emotional.

Because in the year 2022, I can’t seem to find anybody, anywhere, near committing similar atrocities, despite some governments and opposition groups trying.

Even the worst of the Taliban and what their Wasabist founders/adopters did to their opponents and their *custom* of bacha bazi does not come close.

On the other hand, microaggressions deserve microresponses.
 
I agree with everything else in your post. But on this, I want to point out that a Nazi-era VW was almost certainly built with slave labor, including POWs, concentration-camp prisoners, and children, who were given the choice of work or death, in a system that was in some ways more brutal than slavery in the US. I think it's perfectly clear why some might be offended to see someone taking pleasure from the output of that.
But what tool in the world isn't built on the sin of some culture? Yes the Holocaust was a horrific tragedy, but, if we want to go looking for skeletons in the closet, it'll be harder to find a place without them than with them, some of which were honestly equally horrific. If someone wants to be offended, they will find a way. I prefer to stick with what is obviously morally wrong for the individual. If they are actually spouting Nazi ideology, that's 1000 times worse than someone that appreciates a historical aircraft, and if you cannot discern the difference, the problem is with the offended party.
 
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I agree with everything else in your post. But on this, I want to point out that a Nazi-era VW was almost certainly built with slave labor, including POWs, concentration-camp prisoners, and children, who were given the choice of work or death, in a system that was in some ways more brutal than slavery in the US. I think it's perfectly clear why some might be offended to see someone taking pleasure from the output of that.

I can see this as a valid debate. My view is that although it has a challenging history, it can still be a tool to offer value to good or at least productive. Destroying or even just letting machinery that has the capacity to improve lives rot seems wasteful, destroying it would not undo the horrors of its construction but I can recognize the need to acknowledge the atrocities of its creation.
 
But what tool in the world isn't built on the sin of some culture? Yes the Holocaust was a horrific tragedy, but, if we want to go looking for skeletons in the closet, it'll be harder to find a place without them than with them, some of which were honestly equally horrific. If someone wants to be offended, they will find a way. I prefer to stick with what is obviously morally wrong for the individual. If they are actually spouting Nazi ideology, that's 1000 times worse than someone that appreciates a historical aircraft, and if you cannot discern the difference, the problem is with the offended party.
Tell me you did not intend to "yeah, but whatabout," the Holocaust. If you don't understand why I'd be offended that someone choses to drive around in a vehicle literally built by slaves working at machinegun point who were given the choice to do that or die of starvation or being burned alive in an oven, then we probably don't have much common ground.
 
Found this picture of a BF-109 and an FW-190. Notice the depiction on the tails, leaving out the center bars of the swastika.
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Really obvious what it represents, but not technically a swastika. Both airplanes are registered in Germany.

Ron Wanttaja

Germans have somewhat childish approach to their history … not to mention some serious national mood swings between mass genocide on one hand and almost religious like banning of ultimately meaningless symbols as if these symbols were responsible for some involuntary spasms of national violence …
 
Tell me you did not intend to "yeah, but whatabout," the Holocaust. If you don't understand why I'd be offended that someone choses to drive around in a vehicle literally built by slaves working at machinegun point who were given the choice to do that or die of starvation or being burned alive in an oven, then we probably don't have much common ground.
I had personal friends in my past who are Holocaust survivors. They don't like swastikas, either, but they don't act like you do... and never got mad at me for having "bad guy" models when they were in my home, along with my P-51s, P-38s, P-47s, and B-17s. I don't understand why you belittle the equivalent suffering of others, though. People have been burned alive, made slaves, skinned alive, quartered, had their intestines ripped out, had their hearts cut out over pyramids, and more in multiple civilizations. Also, most people don't give a second thought to buying slave-produced stuff from China.
 
Germans have somewhat childish approach to their history … not to mention some serious national mood swings between mass genocide on one hand and almost religious like banning of ultimately meaningless symbols as if these symbols were responsible for some involuntary spasms of national violence …
"Involuntary"? The Nazis came to power via a free election. Hitler's Mein Kampf pretty much indicated how it would go.

Ron Wanttaja
 
I had personal friends in my past who are Holocaust survivors. They don't like swastikas, either, but they don't act like you do... and never got mad at me for having "bad guy" models when they were in my home, along with my P-51s, P-38s, P-47s, and B-17s. I don't understand why you belittle the equivalent suffering of others, though. People have been burned alive, made slaves, skinned alive, quartered, had their intestines ripped out, had their hearts cut out over pyramids, and more in multiple civilizations. Also, most people don't give a second thought to buying slave-produced stuff from China.
Why do you think I'm mad at you? I've expressed dislike only for Nazi fetishists and folks driving around in Nazi cars built by slave prisoners. Does either of those describe you? I've also said nothing to belittle anyone else in history's suffering. I find no more to admire about their tormentors than what I admire about the Nazis, which is nothing.
 
I agree with everything else in your post. But on this, I want to point out that a Nazi-era VW was almost certainly built with slave labor, including POWs, concentration-camp prisoners, and children, who were given the choice of work or death, in a system that was in some ways more brutal than slavery in the US. I think it's perfectly clear why some might be offended to see someone taking pleasure from the output of that.

The use of history for teaching must be accurate. There was no "Nazi era VW."

While Volkswagen was founded in 1937 to build the "People's Car", only a few prototypes were built after the factory in Wolfsburg was completed in 1939. Production was dedicated to heavy war machinery, and that continued until the May 1945 end of WWII in Europe. During that period, slave labor was indeed employed as you stated.

Wolfsburg was in the British Occupation Zone, and under that oversight, the factory retooled, and serial production of what became known as the Beetle began in December 1945. It took just ten years for Volkswagen to build one million of the ubiquitous vehicles, and production continued until the mid 1970s. During that period, the city of Wolfsburg grew from a railway stop to a teeming city.

As an aside, I can assure you that laboring under the Nazi regime was cruel and deadly. Characterizing it as "in some ways more brutal than slavery in the US" as you stated, is horribly inaccurate. It was unimaginably worse.
 
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Plus they bombed Pearl Harbor, and a lot of people take that personally.

I can relate to model making, to preservation of history, and to an appreciation of technology.

I've never understood admiration of the Germans of ww2, though. It's not just that it's maybe the most clear cut and extreme example of good vs evil in world history, but it's that they lost. To view the German battle fleet, you'd need a submarine. Their supply lines were horse drawn. And they lost, spectacularly and completely, in part because they weren't anywhere close to as great as they thought they were.

As I understand it, a German joke of the time, during the war, was that if the plane was dark green, it was British; if it was silver colored, it was American; and if it wasn't there, it was German. Which speaks to why model makers like their planes. They had very fancy camo patterns. P-51's? Not so much. We didn't have to hide them.
 
I wonder what kind of discussion an FW-190 in Israeli Air Force livery (1948?) would garner.

The kind of discussion that says that didn't happen? See: http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/aa-mideast/israel/af/israel-af-not-used.htm

They did fly Czech built Me-109 variants. See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avia_S-199

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