GEICO Skytypers pilot crashes

I'm assuming there was no opportunity for a landing of some sort because of the urban nature of the area.

RIP
 
3393RP said:
I'm assuming there was no opportunity for a landing of some sort because of the urban nature of the area.

RIP
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It wasn’t an engine failure.

Either a spin from low altitude or some kind of flight control failure.
 
Wow...he went in hard. Sad.
 
Very sad. There’s a video circulating that appears to show the plane in a tight nose-down spiral, but beyond that not clear what happened or why the craft ended up in that state.
 
I heard a snippet of ATC audio in which the tower calls the team and says we think we just witnessed one of your planes go down. Sounds like the others weren't sure and doesn't sound like there were any comms from the down aircraft. I see some speculation into engine failure, but not sure where that is coming from.
 
midwestpa24 said:
I heard a snippet of ATC audio in which the tower calls the team and says we think we just witnessed one of your planes go down. Sounds like the others weren't sure and doesn't sound like there were any comms from the down aircraft. I see some speculation into engine failure, but not sure where that is coming from.
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As is typical in situations like this, there are a lot of rumors and half truths being spread around.

What we know (from the ATC audio) is they were taking off in pairs. 1&2 took off fine. #3 aborted his takeoff for an unknown reason, possibly engine related. #4 aborted with him.

There was a lot of confusion on the frequency at that point and tower was having trouble getting ahold of any of them (I imagine because they were simultaneously talking on an internal freq).

Eventually it gets sorted out and 5/6 takeoff.

#1 (flight lead) tells tower he wants to bring them all in and sort it out on the ground. Shortly after that #1 tells tower that 3 resolved his issue and they are going to fly by and pick up 3/4.

At that point tower sees 6 go down and informs 1. It sounds like the flight lead was initially unaware.
 
rocketflyer84 said:
There’s a video circulating that appears to show the plane in a tight nose-down spiral, but beyond that not clear what happened or why the craft ended up in that state.
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Reports of doing a loop, but video begins only with the airplane descending in a vertical attitude and stall/spinning as the pull out pitch change was made. Was low enough on the pullout attempt that after stall/spinning here, it was over. As mentioned, these are not friendly airplanes to stall/spin down low and he would not nearly be the first experienced pilot to get bit by accidentally getting too low and pulling too hard, if that's what actually happened. Not to speculate, but unfortunately it is by far the most likely explanation. I don't know his general level of acro experience/expertise in the T-6 or otherwise, though. Acro really is its own thing regardless of overall seat time and general experience in type. The GEICO show was not historically an aerobatic performance.
 
Just saw that tape...brutal...I have an hour of light acro in a T-6 with an experienced pilot and it seemed an easy plane to fly...never realized it had a dark side...RIP
 
Most T-6 operators will not spin them, since they are not approved for spins, but they may allow you to fly through an incipient spin break and immediate recovery. The altitude lost with even an immediate recovery of the initial spin break is eye-opening.
 
RoscoeT said:
Most T-6 operators will not spin them, since they are not approved for spins, but they may allow you to fly through an incipient spin break and immediate recovery. The altitude lost with even an immediate recovery of the initial spin break is eye-opening.
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The reason they aren’t approved for spins is the they take too much altitude to recover than the FAA was comfortable with.

Spins were part of the standard T-6 training syllabus during WWII.
 
Warlock said:
Just saw that tape...brutal...I have an hour of light acro in a T-6 with an experienced pilot and it seemed an easy plane to fly...never realized it had a dark side...RIP
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The T-6 is a very easy airplane to fly...until it isn’t.

In normal flight regimes, it is a wonderful airplane. But when you get near the limits, get too comfortable or complacent, it can really bite you.
 
is there an optical illusion or is something hanging out of the canopy on the first couple of frames? At first I thought the right wing appeared folded in those frames...

Sad...:(
 
RoscoeT said:
Reports of doing a loop, but video begins only with the airplane descending in a vertical attitude and stall/spinning as the pull out pitch change was made. Was low enough on the pullout attempt that after stall/spinning here, it was over. As mentioned, these are not friendly airplanes to stall/spin down low and he would not nearly be the first experienced pilot to get bit by accidentally getting too low and pulling too hard, if that's what actually happened. Not to speculate, but unfortunately it is by far the most likely explanation. I don't know his general level of acro experience/expertise in the T-6 or otherwise, though. Acro really is its own thing regardless of overall seat time and general experience in type. The GEICO show was not historically an aerobatic performance.
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Reports on other forums from pilots that knew him are that he was an experienced akro pilot. What I noticed in the spin video was that there did not appear to be any control inputs to stop the spin, suggesting pilot incapacitation.
 
Eric Gleason said:
Reports on other forums from pilots that knew him are that he was an experienced akro pilot. What I noticed in the spin video was that there did not appear to be any control inputs to stop the spin, suggesting pilot incapacitation.
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I just have knowledge of way too many aerobatic crashes that fit this profile. Just because the pilot did not stop the rotation before impact does not necessarily point to pilot incapacitation. First of all, it happened from a down line with partial power, which is an accelerated entry that skips the very slow incipient phase associated with how we typically learn to do power off stalls and/or spin entries from power off level flight. Here it just very quickly breaks into a developed rotation. The T-6 does not recover nearly as quickly from this condition as more typical airplanes that are commonly spun. The airplane completed just over one rotation. Not really that much for a T-6 in this state. The other thing you must remember is that aerobatic pilots (especially experienced ones) do not PLAN on losing control unexpectedly at low altitude. Even skilled pilots do not always react perfectly when things do not go as planned all the while watching the very quickly approaching ground.

Anything is possible, but 99% of these types of crashes are pilot error. The likelihood of incapacitation happening over an entire long flight at the one exact precise moment (the pullout initiation) where the controls must be handled with the most care is very low. There was clearly pitch command before the snap/spin entry. I don't mean to sound like I know exactly what happened (I surely don't), but it's just a fact in the aerobatic world that this is not an uncommon occurrence, and that pilots and friends should be aware of the harsh reality that nearly all of these types of crashes are attributable to pilot error, despite how much we wish to eulogize the skills of fellow pilots and friends and think of them as infallible. Hopefully the actual investigation will shed worthwhile light.
 
Eric Gleason said:
Reports on other forums from pilots that knew him are that he was an experienced akro pilot. What I noticed in the spin video was that there did not appear to be any control inputs to stop the spin, suggesting pilot incapacitation.
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Besides the other commentary, there’s a brief application of higher engine power in the audio just prior to impact.
 
Fearless Tower said:
That sound is likely the prop overspeeding.
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Could be, but it’s a sharp change from what sounds like idle power to higher power.

I interpreted it as a last ditch effort to stop the spin rotation and/or make the impact angle less. By that altitude you know you’re going to hit terra firma.
 
Eric Gleason said:
Reports on other forums from pilots that knew him are that he was an experienced akro pilot. What I noticed in the spin video was that there did not appear to be any control inputs to stop the spin, suggesting pilot incapacitation.
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That’s pure speculation. There’s absolutely no way you can come to that conclusion based on that video.
 
rocketflyer84 said:
ATC recording... whole lot going on here.

They depart as a fleet, one aborted its takeoff roll for an unknown reason after others were in the air then ATC can’t seem to get in contact with the other two sitting at the end of the runway. Landing traffic forced to go around while the two on the runway are nordo then some continued confusion about who’s going to take off and land. With all that going on the guys on the air decide they’re coming back to land then change their mind, then with ATC still trying to sort out what’s going on on the ground one of the ones in the air went down.

https://forums.liveatc.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=14633.0;attach=9976
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That’s not exactly correct.

They were taking off in pairs.

1/2 takeoff just fine. 3/4 cleared for takeoff, but then 3 aborts and exits the runway. 4 aborts with him and also exits. Then the confusion happens (probably because they were communicating with each other on a different freq.

Once that was sorted out 5/6 were cleared to takeoff and they proceeded to join 1/2.

At that point Flight Lead (1) tells tower they are all going to return and sort it out on the ground. Shortly after that Flight Lead tells tower that 3 has his issue worked out and they were going to join up and then depart.

While he is telling tower that, Tower sees 6 go down and informs the Lead who initially sounds unaware.
 
Fearless Tower said:
That’s not exactly correct.

They were taking off in pairs.

1/2 takeoff just fine. 3/4 cleared for takeoff, but then 3 aborts and exits the runway. 4 aborts with him and also exits. Then the confusion happens (probably because they were communicating with each other on a different freq.

Once that was sorted out 5/6 were cleared to takeoff and they proceeded to join 1/2.

At that point Flight Lead (1) tells tower they are all going to return and sort it out on the ground. Shortly after that Flight Lead tells tower that 3 has his issue worked out and they were going to join up and then depart.

While he is telling tower that, Tower sees 6 go down and informs the Lead who initially sounds unaware.
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Better yes, thanks.
 
Very sad indeed!
As a longtime fan, it was tough to watch that video, especially after having just saw them during Friday's practice over Jones Beach. I happened to be off but had to work during Saturday's airshow, so I decided to go to the practice. As usual, the team put on a spectacular performance! And as usual, I was there capturing it on my camcorder, along with the other airshow pilots and teams.
My thoughts are with his family and teammates (his dad is also on the team I believe).

RIP
 
Ryanb said:
That’s pure speculation. There’s absolutely no way you can come to that conclusion based on that video.
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Slow down, there. I didn't come to any conclusions, and by definition anyone suggesting a scenario is speculating. So... just about everyone participating in this thread is doing the same.

Here's what I can see in the spin video:
  1. It looks like the spin is not fully developed before the video starts
  2. The plane turns through about 1 1/2 turns that we can see in the video clip before impact. There's at least 1/2 a turn before the video clip starts, but it could be more like 1 or 1 1/2 turns
  3. I don't see left rudder applied.
  4. The engine doesn't sound like it's at high power (or even cruise power) during the spin, but does sound like it's at higher than idle. During the last 1/2 turn or so, it seems to go to a lower power setting, and then it sounds like full throttle as it's descending below the trees.
Given the power changes, pilot incapacitation doesn't seem like the cause to me anymore.

My first thoughts when I listened to the ATC recording were that someone didn't have his head in the game. They're sitting on the runway but not talking to tower, and the controller is having a big "WTF" moment with them. They're probably talking on their air-to-air frequency, but a flight lead missing calls from the tower is a big mistake. Whatever caused those things to happen (maybe fatigue, adverse affects of allergy meds, who knows...) are often the kinds of things that are found to be contributing factors.

For those that haven't seen the full clip, you can see it here: https://twitter.com/gusofftv/status/1001923007080751105
 
Ryanb said:
That’s pure speculation. There’s absolutely no way you can come to that conclusion based on that video.
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That is no more speculation than people talking about him doing spins and lost control from a 5 second clip.

but the pilot incompacitation comes from people at FRG based on knowing how the sky typers stick to strict procedures, Know the pilots, and have spoke to tower controllers.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I have watched that cell phone video enough to say you can’t definitively say whether or not there were control inputs.
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Yep, the reason you don't see left rudder applied is because you just can't freakin' tell by that crappy cell phone video.
 
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And now GEICO is running cutesy-poo commercials with the little animated lizard getting airsick in the back of one of the T-6s during a formation aerobatics routine.

Stay classy, GEICO. :confused:
 
Pilawt said:
And now GEICO is running cutesy-poo commercials with the little animated lizard getting airsick in the back of one of the T-6s during a formation aerobatics routine.

Stay classy, GEICO. :confused:
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They've been running them for some time that I can recall. Perhaps they should stop running it for a bit, but I doubt the crash was noted much beyond the circle of pilots.
 
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