Gear Saddles for 1960 210

Discussion in 'Maintenance Bay' started by Aaron D., Mar 1, 2019.

  1. Aaron D.

    Aaron D. Filing Flight Plan

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    Hello everyone. Ok here is the story, We bought this great 1960 C 210. First plane and I love it. Ive made a few upgrades and fly it often. The gear saddles have timed out and I have purchased new ones. I have found out this is maybe not a job for every mechanic. Sounds like there may be some machining or milling of bushings involved. I live in SW MO. Just looking for any thoughts on the issue Thanks alot.
     
  2. Briar Rabbit

    Briar Rabbit Line Up and Wait

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    If you live in SW Missouri it is not too far to Wichita. You might consider calling the maintenance shop at Yingling in Wichita.
     
  3. Aaron D.

    Aaron D. Filing Flight Plan

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    According to my local AP the repairs may need to be completed at a Cessna service center and 4 of the 5 called did not express any interest in doing the work. the 5th had to get back with us. I believe he contacted them with no success.
     
  4. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    It is a nasty job, basically it is an entire gear restoration.
     
  5. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    Replacing gear saddles? It's labor intensive sure, and it would go quicker at a shop that has done the work before. It's not completely unheard of for independent shops to do it though.
     
  6. Aaron D.

    Aaron D. Filing Flight Plan

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    Ok well thank you for your help.
     
  7. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach

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    Call Tennessee Aircraft Services
     
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  8. aftCG

    aftCG Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I'm just shocked you were able to obtain saddles.
     
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  9. IK04

    IK04 Pattern Altitude

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    I remember years ago, the A+P in ther hangar next to mine did the landing gear job on an early 210 and he had it done in three days or so.. Never heard him swear so much!
     
  10. thomasdr72

    thomasdr72 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    +1 for Tennessee Aircraft Services, I've talked to them about other 210 issues and they know their stuff!
     
  11. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    Everything is a matter of degrees I suppose. They're not rare. People often conflate pivots, saddles, and actuators, in 182RGs and 210s. 210s came in both saddle and pivot variants, R182s only came in pivot form. The OP is talking about the narrow cabin 210 and 210A models, with the exclusive-to-them 1000hr replacement interval saddles. Though a labor intensive job, they're not rare to procure. The 210B and beyond model saddles, merely require dye penetrant (and no mandatory replacement at any hour interval, unless you find a crack of course) inspection every annual under a different paragraph of the same AD.

    You want to talk about unobtanium? Actuators. I was doing some research on a different forum and hoo boy, that puckered me up. Met a guy who found my email and was nice enough to proffer me his flying club ledger when I went asking about R182s: 10k for an actuator, and only way they were able to swing it was they had it in a club and everybody pitched in as the AOG was killing the club cash flow. The aircraft was AOG for 4 months based on procurement. Cessna wanted 25K and had a 365 day backlog. He didn't expand on whether that was as a function of bona fide backlog, lack of interest by Cessna, or the OEMs desire to release orders in batch form.

    At any rate all that to say, 210 saddles are a layup by comparison. Reason people have fallen out of favor with the short gear 210s is that they get hit with the insurance premium of the bona fide 6 seater (the tubular long "modern" leg one that can actually fit 6 people in earnest), and people consider the engine driven hydraulic gear system of the pre-72 ones a detraction. Others misunderstand the gear door inclusion in the gear system and overestimate the mx on it, which leads to further erosion on pricing.

    This of course leads imo to a better value for people looking into a 4 seater, if you can swing the insurance hit. Long legged 210s should be considered a different airplane than the spring leaf gear ones (latter which came both in cantilever and strut braced wings). If it wasn't for my self-imposed rule to fly continental engines in pairs (I keed I keed ...I think :fingerwag:), I'd be all over an early 210. Of course, I better ask my AP how he feels about it, as I'm also not fond of having people get paid to learn on my dime, which perhaps is why I cram myself into a Cherokee in the first place LOL :D

    Pivots otoh (for the R182) have been STC'd for re-milling. @flyingcheesehead had those guys do him one. Otherwise you're looking at similar procurement and pricing dynamics, though nowhere near as bad anymore since they STC the repair of one's existing pivot.

    I think the OP will be fine, he just needs to actually confirm these folks have done the job before. That really is the bottom line on this particular affair.
     
  12. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    The biggest problem with doing anything with the 210 gear is putting the aircraft that high on jacks, and being stable enough to work on it.
    Many Facilities just don't have the equipment to do that.
    and dropping one 210, takes the profit out of a lot of hours.
     
  13. Briar Rabbit

    Briar Rabbit Line Up and Wait

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    Very nice summary. We had a nose gear actuator develop a crack two years ago. As I recall there were at least three iterations in the history for our K model 210. The first design which was on the airplane could not even be resealed or parts replaced per an AD as I recall. I could find no used ones or parts to build a new one and we had to purchase the new cylinder. At that time it listed for about $12,000 retail. Fortunately after about a day on the telephone I found one in stock at a Cessna dealer that let me purchase it for a bit under $10K. Unobtanium is a good description and glad they don't frequently fail.
     
  14. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    I just helped swing the gear on a 182 rg last week. You aren’t kidding, it’s got to be way the heck up there.
     
  15. thomasdr72

    thomasdr72 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    The flat gear 210's (at least the early ones) need to have the main wheels at least 16" off the ground as per the SM, which puts the bottom of the fuselage approximately 36" off of the floor. Not sure how high you have to jack the tube gear ones, but looks even higher...? When I checked the price of a pair of saddles for a 1960 model last summer, it was $3.5k for one side, and $1.5k for the other. I gotta guess that it's at least another $1k - $3k to install them at your average shop...
     
  16. AA5Bman

    AA5Bman Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I’ve alway kinda thought a Turbo 210 might be in my future as the ultimate cross country machine, so I find this conversation disheartening. I don’t know if I could stomach a plane where an individual part costs $12,000 (I did pay $250 for a RUBBER O-RING from Cessna last year that made me want to shoot myself, but that’s another story.

    Anyway, with the crazy cost of actuators, why hasn’t some third party stepped in to offer a PMA’ed or STC’ed alternative? I looked up gear saddles on eBay and it looks like you can get the saddle itself for $300-$1000, which is bad, but not, you know, a down payment on a house like doing all the actuators.
     
  17. Mtns2Skies

    Mtns2Skies En-Route

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    That's the world of certified aircraft. Not unique to 210's, plenty of certified planes have parts that cost a ridiculous amount. Hell, the plastic trim wheel on 180/185's is $2500. 182RG's and 210's have the reputation for expensive parts, but the reality is they're not much worse than the rest of the fleet.
     
  18. AA5Bman

    AA5Bman Pre-takeoff checklist

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    But is there something stopping people from getting a certified (PMA’ed / STC’ed) replacement? I mean, you can buy third-party fuel sending units and tanks and all sorts of other things. Given the pricing and the number of 210s and 182rgs, you’d think someone would have jumped on this as a good opportunity(?).
     
  19. thomasdr72

    thomasdr72 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    The nice thing about the turbo 210 is that with proper care you shouldn't need to replace the saddles (AFAIK, the AD for inspecting them every 100hrs still applies). Only the 1960 and 1961 models require replacement every 1000 flt hrs.

    V/r,
     
  20. Aaron D.

    Aaron D. Filing Flight Plan

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    Ok here is an update. There is a bronze bushing that the saddle sits in. I thought I found some in AZ but not the correct ones. We did obtain a drawing from textron to have these machined. Once again a delay!!! Still love the plane just trying to get it put back together. My teeth are fitting very tightly together.
     
  21. SoCalPilot88

    SoCalPilot88 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    How hard was it to obtain the drawing from Textron? That's most of the effort in doing an owner produced part.
     
  22. Aaron D.

    Aaron D. Filing Flight Plan

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    My mechanic was able to obtain these. Not sure about that process.
     
  23. Aaron D.

    Aaron D. Filing Flight Plan

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    Okay here is the latest. I spoke with Textron tech support several times today. Finally we found a part number for this bushing we have been searching for. 142 phone calls later KRN in AZ has three of them. They look correct in the picture they sent with a ruler for reference. Hope to have them in a day or so. PN:1241040-1 is elusive sob.
     
  24. timwinters

    timwinters Ejection Handle Pulled PoA Supporter

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    Count me as the third recommending Tennessee Aircraft Services. Paul New is a Cessna guru and hs been for quite some time. Also, there's John Efinger in the Ft. Worth area. John's also well known in the Cessna circles. They are both Cessna rigging specialists also.

    Where are you in SWMO?
     
  25. Aaron D.

    Aaron D. Filing Flight Plan

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    I hanger at 2h2 Aurora Mo South west of Springfield. Hope to have all repairs completed by this week. fingers crossed.
     
  26. timwinters

    timwinters Ejection Handle Pulled PoA Supporter

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    Good luck with the repair. I really like the old flat gear 210s.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
  27. Aaron D.

    Aaron D. Filing Flight Plan

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    The latest update:

    The saddles and bushings have been replaced. Gear swings great and the finish line is in sight. The switch on the gear handle broke during testing so the trip for Easter was cancelled. The new switch was ordered yesterday and hope to have it in today and make this repair. Dustin and staff at SEMO aviation has been great. Fingers crossed I will have the plane back this week.
     
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  28. pigpenracing

    pigpenracing En-Route

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    So is it worth buying a cheap old 210 that the gear needs redoing? I almost bought one a few years back but everyone told me to stay away from it...
     
  29. jsstevens

    jsstevens Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    If you don't mind sharing, what did the new gear parts cost?
     
  30. Aaron D.

    Aaron D. Filing Flight Plan

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    Well yes and no. I will say it has been a learning experience. There are many posts and conversations on buying old planes. Yes sometimes you are buying someones troubles and not others. I was able to purchase this plane well below book value. This has been the biggest mechanical issue since we have owned it. Im still happy overall. I would advise to make sure a deep look into the times and future repairs if possible.
     
  31. Aaron D.

    Aaron D. Filing Flight Plan

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    The gear saddles were about 5,500 total. There have been bushings and some other minor parts that I do not have the totals for yet. I will post when the dust settles.
     
  32. jsstevens

    jsstevens Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Thanks! That's not nearly as bad as some stories I've heard. I like the capabilities of the the early 210s but the retractable gear on all the high wing Cessna's seems like a Rube Goldberg affair and I've heard some (2nd hand) horror stories about parts for the early ones.
     
  33. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    Yup, and that's for BOTH, good for 1000 hours. That's still less than ONE main gear leg pivot or even actuator in a 182RG, before labor. Granted, the pre-62 210s are narrow cabin so it's more like a 172 on 260hp lol, but the point remains. I'm still of the opinion the cabin kills the functionality of the big engine (kinda like a cherokee 235), but for those for whom it works, so long as you have the willingness to tinker with it, they do present a much better value than 182rgs in this market. By more than 5 stacks of high society in many instances. That's a decade long hobby's worth of fuel and trips right there.
     
  34. Aaron D.

    Aaron D. Filing Flight Plan

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    The plane does everything I need it to do. Yes it could do more or bigger or faster, no it does not have an auto pilot blah blah. I do enjoy it and it fits the bill 95% of the time. I will say it takes focus when flying instrument approaches in it and you learn to stay ahead. Having said that Its still a good ole bird that I enjoy to fly. I'm guessing I will have it for some time. Soon it will only be the Mrs. and me so then it will be just fine. It is a great plane for short trips and goes in and out of Gastons with no problems.
     
  35. Aaron D.

    Aaron D. Filing Flight Plan

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    Ok the old girl is all done and I flew it home today. Everything works great and it flys great!!!! Dustin at SEMO aviation and his staff did a great job. Of course there were a few other things that he found during the process that we fixed along the way. Now I'm good for another 1000 hours.
     
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  36. clarkmueller

    clarkmueller Pre-Flight

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    I love my T210N, and that's even though I just bought it a new nose gear uplock microswitch for $1,100. :mad::D
     
  37. Aaron D.

    Aaron D. Filing Flight Plan

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    Yes like you, some of those pesky little things are spendy. Still love the plane. Flew 1.7 Sunday and it did great. Would like to fly a T 210 sometime to see the difference.