Gas Prices and Fuel Economy

[Ted]

Here's a question for y'all: does it bug you when people complain about gas prices and you see them driving something like a Prius? I have some friends who drive a Mini Cooper turbo (one of the new ones). They put about 10-20,000 miles per year on it, and it gets roughly 40 mpg highway, albeit on premium. Yet, despite the fact that driving anyplace uses roughly 1/3 the fuel that my Excursion does (nevermind aircraft fuel economy), not a day goes by that they aren't complaining about how expensive gas costs and how much it costs them to go someplace. While it doesn't bother me as it is all in good fun, I gave them a few calculations.

Mini: 40 mpg @ 70 mph on premium unleaded
Ford Excursion: 13.5 mpg @ 70 mph on regular unleaded
Cessna 172: 14.3 mpg @ 126 mph (110 kts, assuming 8.8 gph cruise) on AvGas
Piper Aztec: 7.1 mpg @ 184 mph (160 kts, 26 gph cruise) on AvGas
Piper Navajo: 5 mpg @ 190 mph (165 kts, 38 gph cruise) on AvGas

Of course, none of those figure the extra fuel used during warm-up, taxi, run-up, and take-off. They also aren't completely valid comparisons, seeing as when you fly you can go in a significantly straighter line than when you drive, especially if you live in Pennsylvania. But the numbers still stand to give you an idea.

I personally don't make a big deal about gas prices. Obviously I wish they were lower (doubly so for AvGas... I would be happy just running premium unleaded in a plane instead of 100LL), but I accept it as a cost of what I want to do. Just thought I'd share those numbers for anyone else interested.

 

[tonycondon]

eh you either pay it or you stay home. so far ive been paying.

 

[Bill]

as it is all in good fun, I gave them a few calculations.

Mini: 40 mpg @ 70 mph on premium unleaded
Ford Excursion: 13.5 mpg @ 70 mph on regular unleaded
Cessna 172: 14.3 mpg @ 126 mph (110 kts, assuming 8.8 gph cruise) on AvGas
Piper Aztec: 7.1 mpg @ 184 mph (160 kts, 26 gph cruise) on AvGas
Piper Navajo: 5 mpg @ 190 mph (165 kts, 38 gph cruise) on AvGas

Mooney M20J: 17.8mpg @ 178mph

And, although I haven't tried it yet, Lance F says I can get this if I run 50 LOP:

Mooney M20J: 19.6mpg @ 167mph

 

[Pi1otguy]

eh you either pay it or you stay home. so far ive been paying.

My Isuzu Amigo: 18.4 - 19.2 mpg avg (actual); 21 mpg (EPA combined) on 87 octane.

I have stopped driving to the maximum extent possible. Its not because I can't redirect the funds from other places but that it is crazy to pay over $3.159 for gas. the current price upset me so much that if I explained the thoughts and plots going through my head I'd be arrested.

I now double and triple my travel time by taking the bus, but atleast this way OPEC will feel my wrath. And my next car will be a car with >28 mpg hwy since I can not completely give up driving. BTW, gas comsumption in CA dropped by ~1% last year but prices still went up.

 

[tonycondon]

well the only way to get where i want to go is to drive or fly and 3 dollar gas in the car is still way cheaper than a 150. when i get back to school i will use the busses quite a lot. not a lot of public transportation in iowa, but i think that Ames has the best system in the state. I wont be doing as much driving once I'm back in Ames either, since 2/3 of the things ive been driving for (Leah and the Glider) will be there. Plus ill be a broke college kid CFI again.

 

[Everskyward]

Just out of curiosity...

Hawker 800: 2.1 mpg @ 480 mph on JetA
Lear 35: 2.6 mpg @ 510 mph on JetA

Guess we better start buying those carbon credits.

As far as my car goes, I'm not even sure what it gets. I think it's somewhere in the high 20s. I'm in Tony's camp of either you pay for it or you stay home, and I'm paying. No public transportation out here. Over the past few years I've stopped noticing how much it is since I'm buying it anyway.

 

[Ted]

I now double and triple my travel time by taking the bus, but atleast this way OPEC will feel my wrath. And my next car will be a car with >28 mpg hwy since I can not completely give up driving. BTW, gas comsumption in CA dropped by ~1% last year but prices still went up.

Right, but how much is your time worth to you? For me, doubling and tripling my travel times would have to mean that the travel would be free (or else have some other extraordinary benefits), and even then it would generally be impractical. That would mean 40 minutes to 1 hour for my commute instead of 20 minutes. When my mom took the bus out here to Pennsylvania, it took 6 hours (instead of 3 hours of driving) and then I still had to pick her up.

I'm not even convinced that in many instances public transit is more efficient. Sure, if you have 40 people going from point A to point B exactly it works better. The New York City public transit system is very efficient, simply because of population density. Around here in Williamsport, we have a public transit system, but these large busses have 2-5 people on them, even at peak. You could do just as well running minivans as well instead of large diesel busses. How is this helpful?

Bill, that's nice economy from the Mooney!

 

[Pi1otguy]

For me, doubling and tripling my travel times would have to mean that the travel would be free (or else have some other extraordinary benefits), and even then it would generally be impractical. That would mean 40 minutes to 1 hour for my commute instead of 20 minutes.

My drive to work is about 25-35 minutes but now its an hour bus ride plus 10-20 minutes of walking. OTOH I pay $1.25 instead of $8.50 for parking & ~$2.00 (WAG) for gas. The other upside is that it gives me extra oppotunities to excercise such as walking an extra 2-5 miles after work instead of taking the closest bus stop.

I'm not even convinced that in many instances public transit is more efficient. Sure, if you have 40 people going from point A to point B exactly it works better.

Welcome to my morning rush hour, via bus. Besides, even though I gave up the comfort of my car the entertainment and thrill of sitting across from crazy guy rambling about all sorts of stuff and continually dropping his dime bags starts to make up for it.

Basically I think mass transit works for large cities where everyone needs to get everywhere but gets tricky in smaller cities that have sparse schedules & routes (ie. planning required to use busses).

 

[Ghery]

Guess we better start buying those carbon credits.

Carbon credits. Bah! Humbug!

 

[Ted]

My drive to work is about 25-35 minutes but now its an hour bus ride plus 10-20 minutes of walking. OTOH I pay $1.25 instead of $8.50 for parking & ~$2.00 (WAG) for gas. The other upside is that it gives me extra oppotunities to excercise such as walking an extra 2-5 miles after work instead of taking the closest bus stop.

Right, you see a significant cost savings. Even if they made a bus that went to anywhere within 2 miles of my house it probably wouldn't save me a ton of money. Parkign is free here.

Welcome to my morning rush hour, via bus. Besides, even though I gave up the comfort of my car the entertainment and thrill of sitting across from crazy guy rambling about all sorts of stuff and continually dropping his dime bags starts to make up for it.

Definitely. I spent the first 20 years of my life in New York City, taking the bus and subway everywhere I wanted to go. The problem came about once I started working in Long Island. Even though there was a commuter rail station about 2 miles from the shop, that would've meant taking two different subways, plus the commuter train. My commute driving was 1 hour each way, and it would've been closer to 2 hours each way if I had taken public transit. Plus I then would have had to pay for parking at the station overnight.

Basically I think mass transit works for large cities where everyone needs to get everywhere but gets tricky in smaller cities that have sparse schedules & routes (ie. planning required to use busses).

Right, you're living in a situation where it presently is a functional idea, as I used to be. Although you also stated that it's crazy to be paing as much for gas as it currently costs, which was the main point of the question.

 

[fgcason]

eh you either pay it or you stay home. so far ive been paying.

If you stay home, you'll go nutters.
If you go out, you get boogaloo'd at the pumps.

Jeep = 15mpg
Motorcycle = 57-59mpg (it should NOT take $8+ to fill the motorcycle up)
RV = 6-9mpg

Knock 10-20% off the above numbers as a direct result of that mandatory ethanol sludge crud. (Why do they charge more for less efficient deliberatelly contaminated fuel than uncontaminated fuel?)

Needless to say, the motorcycle is primary transportation whenever possible. Jeep for carrying stuff and substantially bad weather. RV as needed.
Public transportation is out due to safety reasons, lack of useable routing, getting stranded (walk home) if you can't meet their unusable schedule, higher cost and time requirements to ride vs drive.

Curiously though gas prices were beyond horrific in the RV this summer, it was still cheaper to travel 1700ish miles than to stay in the RV park over the same time period.

 

[Bill]

Motorcycle = 57-59mpg (it should NOT take $8+ to fill the motorcycle up)
RV = 6-9mpg

Mine usually takes 5.5g or so at $3.30/g (manual recomments super), so about $18 per fillup on the motorcycle these days. At least it gets 40mpg city.

 

[AirBaker]

Besides just burning avgas for fun, my wife and I have become relatively efficient in our fuel consumption. She works about 3 miles from me so we have carpooled for the past 9 months straight except on maybe 10 occasions. If there was better public transportation, I'd love to utilize it more.

Meanwhile we'll settle for mogas consumption/2.

Edit: I should mention that with gas prices having gone up dramatically (av 3.65/gal) its hard to really see the benefit. Its more of a deterrent to keep from driving separate.

 

[Ghery]

I get a laugh out of the new car commercials that try to convince me to buy their new econobox to replace my Jeep because I'll save money on gas. I'm going to have to save an awful lot to make up for having a car payment that I don't have now. Gas has to go a lot higher before that arguement even comes close.

 

[fgcason]

Mine usually takes 5.5g or so at $3.30/g (manual recomments super), so about $18 per fillup on the motorcycle these days. At least it gets 40mpg city.

Mine takes 2.7 gallons when I switch to reserves. It use to be $3 and change. Now it's $8+ for the same quantity. I think the thing that bothers me the most is I keep emergency fuel money on the bike. It use to be 4 quarters to get me home from 50 miles out. Now I have to carry $3+ onboard for the same purpose/range.

It's irritating knowing the price difference between a very few years ago (not a few centuries) and today. The price ramping acceleration is getting out of hand. It took 3/4 of a century for gas to go up 50 cents. It took another 15 years to go up $0.75 more. Then 3/4 of a decade to go up another $2. I'm expecting another $1 increase over the next 2 years IF we're lucky. What's next? $1 increase every 6 months?

 

[steingar]

Yah, it sucks to put in $12 to fill the bike, and the Wing is getting truly horrific mileage. It'll need a trip to the mechanic (I don't seem to work on anything but grants anymore). The Blade does a lot better, but its too cold now to ride without that big fairing.

I feel for you guys in the SUVs. I'm glad I'm bike-wise, gas will do nothing be get more expensive, and bikes burn less.

 

[Ted]

I get a laugh out of the new car commercials that try to convince me to buy their new econobox to replace my Jeep because I'll save money on gas. I'm going to have to save an awful lot to make up for having a car payment that I don't have now. Gas has to go a lot higher before that arguement even comes close.

I laugh at the same thing. My Excursion, for example, cost $6650 used. A car would have to be awfully cheap (and fuel efficient) to save me any money, nevermind the fact that it then wouldn't be capable of doing the things that I need my truck for.

The other thing that gets to me is the diesel vs. gas argument. When I bought my Excursion, I chose to get the V10 because I don't put a ton of miles on it and I don't tow like I used to. Getting an equivalent condition diesel truck would have cost about 2.5x as much. Sure, it'd see a 4-5 mpg savings, but with diesel costing more than gas, I would've had to drive a whole lot of miles for it to pay off. I'll stick to my gas guzzler, thanks.

 

[Ted]

I feel for you guys in the SUVs. I'm glad I'm bike-wise, gas will do nothing be get more expensive, and bikes burn less.

Nah, don't feel sorry for us, it's our personal choice. You can call us idiots, if you wish.

I drive the largest SUV on the road because it was cheap to buy (gee, wonder why...) and fulfills my needs in terms of 4x4, towing capacity, and cargo area.

I sold my motorcycle because I was tired of people around here in PA trying to kill me all the time on it. Using 1/4 the gas that my Excursion uses doesn't do me any good if I'm dead, and drivers around here are real idiots. I actually was far less concerned riding in Manhattan than I was riding around here. If I moved someplace else I'd consider getting another one, but my back also probably wouldn't allow anything but a GL1500/1800. At that point, I'm spending so much money on the bike that it'll have to save me an awful lot of money to be worth it.

 

[AirBaker]

I laugh at the same thing. My Excursion, for example, cost $6650 used. A car would have to be awfully cheap (and fuel efficient) to save me any money, nevermind the fact that it then wouldn't be capable of doing the things that I need my truck for.

The other thing that gets to me is the diesel vs. gas argument. When I bought my Excursion, I chose to get the V10 because I don't put a ton of miles on it and I don't tow like I used to. Getting an equivalent condition diesel truck would have cost about 2.5x as much. Sure, it'd see a 4-5 mpg savings, but with diesel costing more than gas, I would've had to drive a whole lot of miles for it to pay off. I'll stick to my gas guzzler, thanks.

My buddy bought a diesel Excursion for the gas mileage. "It is going to be GREAT" he said. With the way gas prices were at the time he'd break even at somewhere like 90k miles.

 

[Bill]

My buddy bought a diesel Excursion for the gas mileage. "It is going to be GREAT" he said. With the way gas prices were at the time he'd break even at somewhere like 90k miles.

I ran the numbers back when I bought my F-150 Supercrew vs. an equivalently equipped F-250 diesel, and the break even was somewhere out in the 178,000 mile range. That extra $10k buys a LOT of gas.

 

[Ted]

Using premium at these prices is a waste! All newer cars have knock sensors and will adjust timing for lower grade fuel. If you want to squeal your tires off the line it would make a difference but on the interstate with the cruise control on you will never know.

Not true. It depends completely on the vehicle. The difference is in "Premium Unleaded Recommended" and "Premium Unleaded Required" or some similar wording. There are certain cars out there that will take advantage of the premium fuel to gain you an extra couple horsepower and maybe 0.5 mpg on the highway. However if the car is stated to require premium fuel, it usually has something in the range of 10.5-12.5:1 compression. A friend of mine had a 2005 Toyota Camry. That car had all the fancy knock sensors and such. She ran it on regular unleaded because she "couldn't afford premium", and got 10 mpg with it. She then used that as justification for regular, saying what crappy gas mileage it got. I told her the car needed premium, and to just try an experiment on one tank. Suddenly she got 20 mpg instead of 10.

If you have a Ford Taurus, then yes it is a waste. However many foreign cars out there are designed with high compression engines that do need premium.

Also what do you think one of those Hybrids will be worth in 4 years when they need new batteries? Or there is a new better one and yours is junk?

Yes, to me hybirds are a work of marketing genius, primarily by Toyota, to not only convince people that a marginal savings in mpg combined with a higher initial cost and higher maintenance costs is somehow going to save you money. Better yet, the fact that the processes used to build those cars pollute more than a R-2800 double wasp at full rich takeoff power. But, we can ignore that fact because it's a hybrid.

Thanks, I'll stick to my old planes and old(ish) cars. Buying that 2000 Excursion was getting a really new car from my perspective, considering what I normally buy.

 

[Ted]

My buddy bought a diesel Excursion for the gas mileage. "It is going to be GREAT" he said. With the way gas prices were at the time he'd break even at somewhere like 90k miles.

Yep. It amazes me how many people don't understand that the break even point on a diesel is way far down the road. They don't take into account the higher maintenance costs when things break, either. I bought my V10 for that reason, and even at the 13-14 mpg highway I get with it, I know I made the right decision. Besides, the 7.3L PowerStroke is very noisy, and the V10 is very quiet and smooth.

When I bought my 2004 Dodge new, I bought the diesel because I knew I was going to be towing with it. 107,000 miles and 2 years to the day later, probably 80,000 of those miles were with a trailer attached, and 60,000 with it loaded. Regardless of the mileage benefit (which was significant, especially with the number of highway miles), it was worth it simply because of the performance of the diesel over the Hemi when towing a load. My life was very different then. Of course, I would have kept the truck if I had bought it in 4x4 (which I now require), but the Excursion fits my needs better anyway, and I bought the 4x2 because of the turning radius. Anyone who's tried to do a U-turn with a crew cab, long bed, 4x4 truck knows why I bought the 4x2.

 

[Ghery]

Anyone who's tried to do a U-turn with a crew cab, long bed, 4x4 truck knows why I bought the 4x2.

Aunt used to have an International crew cab pickup truck. Took the better part of her 80 acres to turn that thing around. Made a good tractor, though.

 

[gkainz]

I paid extra for the Cummins diesel, partly because of the fuel economy - 21 mpg empty, but mostly because I can tie on to 13,000 lbs of travel trailer, hit the go pedal and head on down the road (or more importantly, up the mountains).

Now, if I only got my act togther and start making biodiesel, my research says I should be able to make it for less than $1/gal from waste vegetable oil ...

 

[KennyFlys]

I paid extra for the Cummins diesel, partly because of the fuel economy - 21 mpg empty, but mostly because I can tie on to 13,000 lbs of travel trailer, hit the go pedal and head on down the road (or more importantly, up the mountains).

Now, if I only got my act togther and start making biodiesel, my research says I should be able to make it for less than $1/gal from waste vegetable oil ...

Had I kept driving a diesel and gotten out of courier work, that would have been the route for me. But as a courier, I burned too much fuel to keep up with my own production.

In your case, you'd definitely need preheated bio-fuel and tank switching during the winter time. I wonder if it would even be feasible during a couple months, particularly if the truck was not garaged.

 

[Ted]

I paid extra for the Cummins diesel, partly because of the fuel economy - 21 mpg empty, but mostly because I can tie on to 13,000 lbs of travel trailer, hit the go pedal and head on down the road (or more importantly, up the mountains).

Yep, the Cummins sure shines there, it always pulled strongly no matter how big or heavy the load. I remember one time when I was driving through Illinois with a 28' enclosed trailer attached to mine. I saw tornadoes and knew that I was not in a good place, and turning around was not an option. I planted my right foot to the floor. I'm sure the turbo was glowing bright red, but I got through that zone going about 95. For that stretch my fuel economy at 5.5 mpg was actually worse than most twin-engined aircraft!

Now, if I only got my act togther and start making biodiesel, my research says I should be able to make it for less than $1/gal from waste vegetable oil ...

If your Cummins is one of the 2003+ with the common rail direct injection, I would be very careful with this. First off, I would only use it on long trips (preferably all-day driving, but certainly no less than 3 hours of continuous engine operation), and then I would also make sure to be running on normal diesel for the last 30 minutes of operation. Those injectors are very sensitive to clogging as it is with regular diesel if you don't run the truck hard that often. I would be concerned with biodiesel congealing in the injectors after shut-off, at which point you're in for a very expensive repair.

If it's a 2002 or older, then you're probably fine. However I've seen a good number of people who had problems with the injectors simply because the engine was not getting run hard often enough. I ran mine like an airplane engine since there was always a load on back, so it was always good and clean and trouble-free.

 

[t0r0nad0]

Public transit here in Houston is atrocious. They also have these ridiculous reversable HOV lanes running right down the center of each freeway that are divided from the rest of the lanes by concrete barriers. What they need to do here is convert those HOV's to light rail lines (a la Chi-town) and then make the inner-most lane of each direction of travel an HOV that allows drivers to hop on/hop off, like most other cities have. So long as they don't make it the far right, like Seattle... I never understood that.

I just moved out to the suburbs (moving sucks!), which more than doubled my commute time each way. I'm seriously considering sucking it up and trying out the bus. From this particular suburb, I hear it's pretty nice. Parking is typically free at the park & ride, and there is a major transit center directly across the street from my office, so it might be worth a shot! Even if my commute is a bit longer, I think I'd rather be able to sit on the bus and read (meaning 'sleep') on the way to/from work than have to be alert and driving my stick shift in bumper-to-bumper traffic.