Garmin G5 *will* drive other brand A/Ps

denverpilot

denverpilot

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Garmin has now announced that they WILL support the G5 driving heading bugs of a number of popular older A/Ps.

Will require GAD 29B interface, due out in September. Also requires a GTN. Doesn't look like they'll support it with the 430/530. But I could be wrong there.

Thought maybe the folks who were bummed they said it wasn't going to be supported would be happy to hear.
 
"Garmin is pleased to announce the G5 electronic flight instrument will soon be compatible with a wide-range of third-party autopilots available on the market. Utilizing the new GAD 29B adapter, the G5 directional gyro (DG)/horizontal situation indicator (HSI) can interface with a variety of autopilots to provide heading and course error to drive the autopilot. With a compatible navigation source, the G5 can also interface with select autopilots for coupled flight in heading and navigation modes. Additionally, when interfaced with a GTN 650/750 or GNS 430W/530W, the G5 can provide GPSS roll steering navigation from the navigator to the autopilot. Pilots can simply select GPSS on the G5 and heading mode on the autopilot and the autopilot will fly smooth intercepts, holding patterns, procedure turns and more.

Third-party autopilot support is expected to include the following autopilots:

Century II/III
Century IV (AC), IV (DC)
Century 21/31/41
Century 2000
Cessna 400B
Cessna 300 IFCS/400 IFCS
Honeywell (Bendix King) KAP 100/150/200
Honeywell (Bendix King) KFC 150/200
Honeywell (Bendix King) KAP 140
Honeywell (Bendix King) KFC 225
S-TEC 20/30/40/50/55/60-1/60-2/65
S-TEC 60 PSS
S-TEC 55X
Garmin expects to expand third-party autopilot compatibility for the G5 electronic flight instrument in the future. The GAD 29B is expected to be available in September."
 
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Ping @bnt83 ... they changed the game again. (GRIN)... Thought you'd like to know since you did all that digging in the STC trying to figure out what they'd support... and they cheated and made a whole new interface box instead. :)
 
Meanwhile Aspen keeps peddling their display-overheating legacy product at a .5AMU discount and yells FTW! LOL I'm not in the market for any of these trinkets, but the dynamic sure is laughable from Aspen...
 
denverpilot said:
Ping @bnt83 ... they changed the game again. (GRIN)... Thought you'd like to know since you did all that digging in the STC trying to figure out what they'd support... and they cheated and made a whole new interface box instead. :)
Click to expand...
The interface box might be real interesting. The Aspen interface box has to be matched to a Century analogue autopilot. One size does not fit all.
 
Just remember ,Garmin wants all your money,if there's a way to get it they will. About time they started linking their product with other companies.
 
Sweeeeeet. Now ...what about 480?

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
Aspen is arrogantly walking past the grave yard. If you're at Osh this year, just walk up and ask them about the G5 and how will they respond. At Sun N Fun, Aspen was cocky & arrogant to point of appearing unhinged. Aspen has a dated product. The resolution of the display is course, as compared to new products. Just look how chunky and uneven the diagonal lines circles appear.

It takes the same amount of time to install a basic Aspen Pro (single display) as a full G500, approximately 20 hours of shop time.

I'd like to see Aspen compete and win, but they are operating in a bubble with terrible denial of current market situation.
 
NordicDave said:
I'd like to see Aspen compete and win, but they are operating in a bubble with terrible denial of current market situation.
Click to expand...

I often wonder in those situations if "the engineering brains" bailed a while ago, and the company is just riding on sales, but has no option to build/design something truly new and difficult.

I saw that happen a LOT in telecom. Neat new gadget from some highly motivated engineer/entrepreneur, sells great for a while, engineer either gets promoted to big title in rapidly growing company or flat out leaves for a beach somewhere after cashing out equity, and company glides for a while into obscurity without any real talent left to make anything new.

Engineer is usually far too burnt out on the process to return and "do it all over again". And company thinks they can just find another engineer that motivated or good off of the street, for a salary... which they can't. Because that next good engineer is building his or her gadget somewhere small so they can get the equity.
 
Note that the G5 *only* functions as a Nav/Heading reference, it does NOT function as an attitude source.

I was really excited to find out the G5 would support older autopilots, and would have put in a pair of G5s if it did everything, but for the KFC 150, we'll need to keep our old King spinny-gyro attitude indicator (KI 256). :(
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Note that the G5 *only* functions as a Nav/Heading reference, it does NOT function as an attitude source.

I was really excited to find out the G5 would support older autopilots, and would have put in a pair of G5s if it did everything, but for the KFC 150, we'll need to keep our old King spinny-gyro attitude indicator (KI 256). :(
Click to expand...

Same with my Century 41. My excitement dwindled when I realized the G5 could send pitch and roll (AI) to the autopilot.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Note that the G5 *only* functions as a Nav/Heading reference, it does NOT function as an attitude source.

I was really excited to find out the G5 would support older autopilots, and would have put in a pair of G5s if it did everything, but for the KFC 150, we'll need to keep our old King spinny-gyro attitude indicator (KI 256). :(
Click to expand...

You need to keep it anyway as backup, even if you upgrade to the new AP.
 
teejayevans said:
You need to keep it anyway as backup, even if you upgrade to the new AP.
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Uh... Why? I don't think that's a requirement of the STC. It's certified as primary. The one certified airplane I've flown with one does not have another AI.

And even if I did need another AI, it wouldn't have to be the expensive KI 256, it could just be an off-the-shelf plain old AI, without the flight director or autopilot pickoff.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Uh... Why? I don't think that's a requirement of the STC. It's certified as primary. The one certified airplane I've flown with one does not have another AI.

And even if I did need another AI, it wouldn't have to be the expensive KI 256, it could just be an off-the-shelf plain old AI, without the flight director or autopilot pickoff.
Click to expand...

According to the announcement you need a dual G5s to remove the vacuum AI:
"The G5 had been approved in July 2016 as a non-technical standard order attitude indicator. The latest supplemental type certificate, announced March 29, will expand that approval and enables aircraft owners to install two G5s and eliminate the dependency on the airplane’s vacuum system for attitude and heading information."
 
To me the question is whether or not two G5s would be better than an Aspen? By the time you have the similar capability (less Aspen's ability to supply attitude) you've spent more. Yes, the G5s give redundancy but that advantage is lost if a vacuum AI must be maintained. I just don't see the G5 as serious Aspen competition right now. The folks that would buy a single G5 weren't looking at Aspen with their checkbooks open.

For VFR/light IFR guys the G5 is a great choice. If you want Glass panel integration with GPS and autopilot then Aspen is still the solution short of shelling out cash for a G500+GPSS.
 
I am all for replacing vac instruments with a safer option, but I don't find the G5 and the Aspen all that appealing.
 
Man I wanna put a G5 in the Cherokee.
 
Clark1961 said:
To me the question is whether or not two G5s would be better than an Aspen? By the time you have the similar capability (less Aspen's ability to supply attitude) you've spent more. Yes, the G5s give redundancy but that advantage is lost if a vacuum AI must be maintained. I just don't see the G5 as serious Aspen competition right now. The folks that would buy a single G5 weren't looking at Aspen with their checkbooks open.

For VFR/light IFR guys the G5 is a great choice. If you want Glass panel integration with GPS and autopilot then Aspen is still the solution short of shelling out cash for a G500+GPSS.
Click to expand...

Clark,

Not sure how you're getting dual G5s being more expensive than Aspen. Yes, if you want it to talk to your old autopilot, you need the GAD29B... But you also need an additional unit for your Aspen to do that, and the Garmin unit is way cheaper.

I'm a gadget freak. I'm still undecided as to what glass will go in the Mooney eventually... But I tell ya what, if the G5 would drive the KFC150, we'd have put a pair of them in this fall.

Aspen's strength *was* that you could get a PFD for less than a G500 and add the MFD later. But if you do both, you end up with a system that's not as nice as the G500, for more money.

Now, a pair of G5s can do a lot of what the Aspen can do, and can be "halved" like an Aspen - Buy one now and one later. But two G5s costs under $6K, while the single Aspen costs about $10K. The Aspen analog converter unit is around $3K, while the Garmin analog converter unit is $500. Sure, you're missing some capability, but you've got Garmin's reliability and support, and if you need an autopilot you'll be five figures ahead going with G5s and a GFC500 than you would be with an Aspen and anyone else's autopilot, not to mention that would put Garmin ahead in capability as well.
 
Clip4 said:
I am all for replacing vac instruments with a safer option, but I don't find the G5 and the Aspen all that appealing.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure there's anything in life you find appealing.

(No, really. What avionics do you find appealing, o resident curmudgeon?)
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Clark,

Not sure how you're getting dual G5s being more expensive than Aspen. Yes, if you want it to talk to your old autopilot, you need the GAD29B... But you also need an additional unit for your Aspen to do that, and the Garmin unit is way cheaper.

I'm a gadget freak. I'm still undecided as to what glass will go in the Mooney eventually... But I tell ya what, if the G5 would drive the KFC150, we'd have put a pair of them in this fall.

Aspen's strength *was* that you could get a PFD for less than a G500 and add the MFD later. But if you do both, you end up with a system that's not as nice as the G500, for more money.

Now, a pair of G5s can do a lot of what the Aspen can do, and can be "halved" like an Aspen - Buy one now and one later. But two G5s costs under $6K, while the single Aspen costs about $10K. The Aspen analog converter unit is around $3K, while the Garmin analog converter unit is $500. Sure, you're missing some capability, but you've got Garmin's reliability and support, and if you need an autopilot you'll be five figures ahead going with G5s and a GFC500 than you would be with an Aspen and anyone else's autopilot, not to mention that would put Garmin ahead in capability as well.
Click to expand...
Add another 3k for GPSS to the two G5s to get closer to Aspen capability. The pricing is closer than folks want to admit. Garmin did their homework and is undercutting Aspen but not by much.
 
Clark1961 said:
Add another 3k for GPSS to the two G5s to get closer to Aspen capability. The pricing is closer than folks want to admit. Garmin did their homework and is undercutting Aspen but not by much.
Click to expand...

Depends what autopilot you have. If you install the GFC500, you'll have GPSS already.

Even so, you can get two G5s, GAD29 and S-TEC GPSS for about $9200. The equivalent from Aspen (EFD1000 Pro + EA100 ACU) is $13,800.

Aspen has also been overextending their hardware, adding SV and AoA and such makes it jumpy. Unless they respond to Garmin's latest, and fast, they're going to be in trouble.
 
The G5 HSI has GPSS mode built in. No external GPSS box required.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Depends what autopilot you have. If you install the GFC500, you'll have GPSS already.

Even so, you can get two G5s, GAD29 and S-TEC GPSS for about $9200. The equivalent from Aspen (EFD1000 Pro + EA100 ACU) is $13,800.

Aspen has also been overextending their hardware, adding SV and AoA and such makes it jumpy. Unless they respond to Garmin's latest, and fast, they're going to be in trouble.
Click to expand...
The Aspen doesn't need a converter similar to the GAD29 so I don't know where the added converter is coming from. The GTNs and GNSs connect directly to the Aspen. The only converters it needs are for output to analogue autopilots and those converters run about $600.
 
I assume the G5 will not be expensive to install because unlike the Aspen it doesn't require another antenna. I contacted avionics shop to get a quote but they have to wait to get the installation manual.
 
teejayevans said:
According to the announcement you need a dual G5s to remove the vacuum AI:
"The G5 had been approved in July 2016 as a non-technical standard order attitude indicator. The latest supplemental type certificate, announced March 29, will expand that approval and enables aircraft owners to install two G5s and eliminate the dependency on the airplane’s vacuum system for attitude and heading information."
Click to expand...

Clark1961 said:
Add another 3k for GPSS to the two G5s to get closer to Aspen capability. The pricing is closer than folks want to admit. Garmin did their homework and is undercutting Aspen but not by much.
Click to expand...

Clark1961 said:
The Aspen doesn't need a converter similar to the GAD29 so I don't know where the added converter is coming from. The GTNs and GNSs connect directly to the Aspen. The only converters it needs are for output to analogue autopilots and those converters run about $600.
Click to expand...

$600 is the expected street price of the GAD29...
 
Clark1961 said:
The Aspen doesn't need a converter similar to the GAD29 so I don't know where the added converter is coming from. The GTNs and GNSs connect directly to the Aspen. The only converters it needs are for output to analogue autopilots and those converters run about $600.
Click to expand...

If it doesn't have the converter to output to an analog autopilot, it doesn't do much good to have GPSS now does it? The G5 *also* connects directly to the GTNs and GNSs and only needs an analog converter to connect to an autopilot. Exactly like the Aspen, only the Garmin stuff is cheaper.

And I looked up all the prices on both sides before I posted. The price of the analog converter box for the Aspen is $2,795. The price of the current GAD29 is $500, but I did find where the standalone GAD29B will be $699. However, it is actually included in the G5 price I was quoting and you only need one.

So, make that $13,800 for the Aspen and $7900 for dual Garmin G5's with GAD29B and GPSS. That puts Garmin at nearly a $6,000/43% discount compared to Aspen.

Yes, they're in trouble.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
If it doesn't have the converter to output to an analog autopilot, it doesn't do much good to have GPSS now does it?

And I looked up all the prices on both sides before I posted. The price of the analog converter box for the Aspen is $2,795. The price of the current GAD29 is $500, but I did find where the standalone GAD29B will be $699. However, it is actually included in the G5 price I was quoting and you only need one.

So, make that $13,800 for the Aspen and $7900 for dual Garmin G5's with GAD29B and GPSS. That puts Garmin at nearly a $6,000/43% discount compared to Aspen.

Yes, they're in trouble.
Click to expand...
I have no idea what you looked up for pricing and required equipment. I do know what I bought. The Aspen doesn't require a $3,000 box to work with an analogue autopilot. You may be looking at a box that allows the Aspen to replace the analogue AI. If so you are comparing apples and oranges with your numbers. I'm not far off with my statements on costs involved. I own an Aspen and it provides GPSS to the autopilot. For the certified world the same capability using G5s will cost about the same unless the G5 can provide GPSS. Sure in the experimental world the G5 wins against the Aspen but that is not it's competition.

Look at it another way. Do you really think Garmin would leave $3,000 on the table when selling in the certified world while undercutting their own product, the G500?
 
Clark1961 said:
I have no idea what you looked up for pricing and required equipment. I do know what I bought. The Aspen doesn't require a $3,000 box to work with an analogue autopilot. You may be looking at a box that allows the Aspen to replace the analogue AI.
Click to expand...

Yep. That's probably it. And I was very sad to find out the G5 can't do that. (Yet, anyway.)

I own an Aspen and it provides GPSS to the autopilot.
Click to expand...

My club owns an R182 with an Aspen that provides GPSS to the autopilot as well. I am familiar. We had looked at that setup for the Mooney, but we do require a converter box for the Aspen. :(

For the certified world the same capability using G5s will cost about the same unless the G5 can provide GPSS.
Click to expand...

So if I had a rate-based autopilot, it'd still be $7900 for the dual G5s and $11,000 for the Aspen... Still a lot of money.

Look at it another way. Do you really think Garmin would leave $3,000 on the table when selling in the certified world while undercutting their own product, the G500?
Click to expand...

They're doing that because a large part of the GA fleet is not worth enough to put a G500 into. If you have a $50,000 plane, it doesn't make sense to put $60,000 worth of avionics into it. (That's the neighborhood of the quotes we got for G500 + GTN + GTX345 in the Mooney). In fact, for a lot of planes, even an Aspen with no converter box doesn't make much sense.

But, if you have one of the many 1970s-era 172s, PA28s, etc out there, the G5 makes a lot of sense. Even dual G5s. And by leaving that $3,000 on the table, Garmin creates a much larger market for themselves.
 
The G5 STC allows the HSI G5 to be a back-up to the PFD G5. WIth Aspen you can not use a second Aspen device as a back-up so you need to keep your original (vacuum) AI in the panel.
 
PilotRocker said:
The G5 STC allows the HSI G5 to be a back-up to the PFD G5. WIth Aspen you can not use a second Aspen device as a back-up so you need to keep your original (vacuum) AI in the panel.
Click to expand...
The second Aspen may or may not be a back-up depending on which hardware/software is purchased. The second Aspen has to be the $10,000 version with its own ADHARS and then an external battery has to be installed. This type of config is competitive with the G500, not the G5.
 
Clark1961 said:
The second Aspen may or may not be a back-up depending on which hardware/software is purchased. The second Aspen has to be the $10,000 version with its own ADHARS and then an external battery has to be installed. This type of config is competitive with the G500, not the G5.
Click to expand...

Exactly. And most of the fleet doesn't need a G500. That's where Aspen forgot to innovate.

They were selling into the low end space but nobody's going to buy Aspen in that market anymore. Not without a major price cut.

Whether they can survive long term in their much smaller high end market is questionable. How many aircraft need that level of avionics installed per year?
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I'm not sure there's anything in life you find appealing.

(No, really. What avionics do you find appealing, o resident curmudgeon?)
Click to expand...

I like a lot of avionics, but trying to put a pack a bunch of information into a small display, not so much.
 
With Dynon's news today a lot of this discussion is old before it's getting typed.

G1000 like retrofit for $16AMU or less.
 
arkvet said:
With Dynon's news today a lot of this discussion is old before it's getting typed.

G1000 like retrofit for $16AMU or less.
Click to expand...

It's OSH week. Totally normal. :)

$16,000 *installed* with autopilot? That's incredibly low. And it's what the announcement says.

Fun times.
 
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