Garmin 430 vs 430w

[gprellwitz]

Seriously? This is plain dumb. If a VFR-only pilot gets into IMC, do you think he/she is going to have the werewithal to engage to A/P and then load, arm, and manage an approach?

Puh-leeze.

This is akin to suggesting that a non-driver would be fine taking over on the freeway since the car has airbags.

I agree. As a VFR pilot I once ran into clouds at night. I was already on autopilot and in a descent (I was trying to get down below the clouds before I got to them). I knew enough to not touch anything in a stable situation (except turning off the strobes) so I got through it without scaring myself of my passengers, but I was certainly chagrined. Yes, a VFR pilot should be able to use the autopilot to couple to the GPS without much difficulty, presuming they already have the route in the GPS, or should be able to put it into wing leveling or even heading mode if they don't.

That said, I don't think there's any way without instrument training that I could have selected, loaded, and activated an approach with the level of training I had at the time. Perhaps ATC (with whom I was talking) would have been able to walk me through it had it been LIMC and had I requested it, but I certainly wouldn't stake my life on that.

 

[dmccormack]

Ummmm....yes? And you don't think this minimum level of training can be expected? The very first thing I would do is hit ONE button and engage the AP in wing level mode.

You haven't had -- or known --many students, have you?

When a VFR-only pilot finds himself suddenly in IMC, carefully scanning the panel and doing to one right thing is not the usual response.

I've had one former student who earned the PP and had at least 5 hours hood time (and did very well, BTW. I'd also taken him up in IMC to see what it was like and get him psyched for the IR).

Anyway, he hit IMC while climbing to cruise altitude.

He immediately did a 180 (good) but lost 500' (bad) in the process.

When I asked "Did you ever consider pushing this button, letting it set the wings level, and then turning the heading bug to 180 from your current heading?"

"No [long pause] Well, I remembered that afterwards, but by then I was out of the clouds."

Your advice -- quite frankly -- is very, very dangerous.

Any VFR pilot or even IR pilot out of proficiency should ignore this advice, and re-commit to not flying IMC without the training and the currency, period.

There are many, many things we can all do and probably survive. It doesn't mean we should plan on it.

 

[dmccormack]

Finally, I've heard that a good way to be really scared by the state of the average pilot is to become a CFI and start doing flight reviews. Plus, it doesn't take too many trips through the news and the NTSB reports to find that we're not nearly as good as we think we are, on average.

You are not kidding.



The real scary part is that if you get a rep for actually expecting steep turns and slow flight you will get fewer and fewer requests.

A few weeks ago I happened to be at the airport when a V-tail Bo rolled up. The CFI met the pilot, and then exactly one hour of BS passed in the office (I was in the hangar working and the "walls" are thin).

A stroll out to the airplane, hop in, a loooooong run up, and then takeoff. Ceiling was probably 1000'.

45 minutes later the airplane rolls back up.

Now, it's only a *suspicion* on my part, but I'm guessing slow flight, steep turns, and stalls were not being done in those conditions.

My *guess* was a quick run out for gas, and then return.

I diplomatically conveyed my suspicions to someone that spends lots of time at the airport.



He just laughed.

 

[John Collins]

No, I mean a reasonably proficient VFR only pilot. We're talking about emergencies here, right? Obviously, I would never rely on doing this if I didn't have my IR, nor would it be legal.

But I think it's reasonable to expect a VFR pilot to be able to perform a successful IFR approach with a GPS and autopilot in an emergency. It's really not that hard.

I don't think that a VFR pilot, while undergoing the stressful situation of inadvertent IMC, is going to be able to learn on the spot how to load and approach and engage the autopilot in the correct mode. I assume you are a trained instrument pilot with experience flying using the W and an autopilot, but I doubt that most VFR only pilots know how to select and activate an approach on the W, much less setup and engage the autopilot to fly an ILS or LPV.

I do a fair amount of instruction, teaching IFR rated pilots how to use this same equipment, as many of them can't successfully fly an LPV approach using their GPS and autopilot together. In fact, I just finished a checkout in a G36 with a very competent airline captain who had no idea how to accomplish the same tasks until he received the dual instruction. In his case, he would have hand flown an ILS if he needed to before he would have attempted an LPV with the autopilot. We spent 2.5 hours of ground and 5 hours of dual to bring him up to proficiency. Now he could do either.

 

[John Collins]

You haven't had -- or known --many students, have you?

When a VFR-only pilot finds himself suddenly in IMC, carefully scanning the panel and doing to one right thing is not the usual response.

I've had one former student who eearned the PP and had at least 5 hours hood time (and did very well, BTW. I'd also taken him up in IMC to see what it was like and get him psyched for the IR).

Anyway, he hit IMC while climbing to cruise altitude.

He immediately did a 180 (good) but lost 500' (bad) in the process.

When I asked "Did you ever consider pushing this button, letting it set the wings level, and then turning the heading bug to 180 from your current heading?"

"No [long pause] Well, I remembered that afterwards, but by then I was out of the clouds."

Your advice -- quite frankly -- is very, very dangerous.

Any VFR pilot or even IR pilot out of proficiency should ignore this advice, and re-commit to not flying n IMC without the training and the currency, period.

There are many, many things we can all do and probably survive. It doesn't mean we should plan on it.

Plus 1

 

[John Collins]

...but not, for LNAV+V, at the same level of accuracy as LPV approaches. Yes, it may be better than no GS, but there are limitations associated of which the non-IR pilot would probably not be aware.

I agree with your conclusion, but the first statement regarding accuracy of the advisory vertical guidance for a LNAV+V isn't technically correct.

The accuracy is what it is for any vertical guidance on an approach and the calculations for the glidepath are performed in the same manner. What is different between LNAV+V and some LPV vertical guidance is required integrity as defined by the vertical alarm limits. For LNAV+V, LNAV/VNAV, and LPV (MDA/DA 250 feet or greater) it is 50 meters. For LPV200 (DA below 250 ft) it is 35 meters.

 

[Baron2PG]

Yes they will, and with GPSS they'll do an even better job. But relying on that to pull your bacon out of the fire after getting into IMC as a VFR pilot would be foolhardy and extremely dangerous. I'm not saying one shouldn't try that if there were no other options, just that it shouldn't be a part of anyone's plan.

With a good autopilot the WAAS GPS will fly a very nice fully coupled approach. Keep the speed under control, pull all power at the numbers and you'll bend something but probably survive the event. I have detailed instructions with pictures for just such an emergency "If I just dropped dead do this". I figure I need to give my wife and kids a fighting chance. The instructions contain information to pass along to the controller as well so he'll make sure to provide the proper approach vectors to ensure GS lock; which is the only thing that can be a little sensative on a fully coupled WAAS approach. Loading and locking onto an ILS is more difficult then a GPS WAAS. Would that be the sole reason to spend money on WAAS; no. Flying IFR most of the time I use WAAS quite frequently so it was a no brainer upgrade for me.

 

[jesse]

The W also gives you a faster refresh rate on the screen. Not sure that's a big deal for VFR but it is still nice to have.

 

[gismo]

We are in complete agreement.

Astonishment may commence.

Time for a celebration

 

[sba55]

I think that's a matter of opinion. Mine's based on observation over the last four years of several dozen IR trainees with no instrument training beyond that required for PP. YMMV.

It is, Ron, and you definitely have much more experience with what a "typical" student would do. I don't think that's good enough.

I don't think that a VFR pilot, while undergoing the stressful situation of inadvertent IMC, is going to be able to learn on the spot how to load and approach and engage the autopilot in the correct mode.

I just don't think you can say this in such a definite way. I don't doubt that there are people who would not react correctly. Maybe those people should not be flying to begin with. There are also people who would have no problem engaging the autopilot or even just hand-flying for an hour (I've done both) in IMC as a VFR pilot.

Either way, I think it's definitely possible to do that even without IFR training, and it's something we should be able to expect. IMO, of course

Back to this specific topic. We're talking about an emergency situation in which a VFR only pilot has to execute a coupled IFR approach. This isn't about inadvertent IMC. And I would imagine that any reasonable proficient pilot could be talked through how to engage the auto pilot and activate the approach and such and then let the AP fly the approach. Like I said, I don't see why that would be that hard with proper guidance from ATC/an ATC provided CFI.

 

[dmccormack]

Back to this specific topic. We're talking about an emergency situation in which a VFR only pilot has to execute a coupled IFR approach. This isn't about inadvertent IMC. And I would imagine that any reasonable proficient pilot could be talked through how to engage the auto pilot and activate the approach and such and then let the AP fly the approach. Like I said, I don't see why that would be that hard with proper guidance from ATC/an ATC provided CFI.

Maybe you can provide examples where this scenario ended well?

(Hint: good luck)

Attempting VFR flight in instrument meteorologic conditions is one of the most consistently lethal mistakes in all of aviation. Since 2002, more than 86% of all fixed-wing VFR-into-IMC accidents have been fatal, a higher proportion than for mid-air collisions, wire strikes, or pilot incapacitation. -- ASF

http://www.aopa.org/asf/ntsb/vfrintoimc.cfm?window=3 shows locations of VFR into IMC per year on a Google map.

 

[John Collins]

I just don't think you can say this in such a definite way. I don't doubt that there are people who would not react correctly. Maybe those people should not be flying to begin with. There are also people who would have no problem engaging the autopilot or even just hand-flying for an hour (I've done both) in IMC as a VFR pilot.

Either way, I think it's definitely possible to do that even without IFR training, and it's something we should be able to expect. IMO, of course

Back to this specific topic. We're talking about an emergency situation in which a VFR only pilot has to execute a coupled IFR approach. This isn't about inadvertent IMC. And I would imagine that any reasonable proficient pilot could be talked through how to engage the auto pilot and activate the approach and such and then let the AP fly the approach. Like I said, I don't see why that would be that hard with proper guidance from ATC/an ATC provided CFI.

If stating something beginning with "I don't think" is saying something in a definite way, I am guilty. People that would not react correctly need training and are not necessarily those that should be washed out of the pilot community. I would be much more concerned with pilot attitude and pilots knowing their own limitations.

If you have flown IMC as a VFR pilot, I sure hope there was a qualified PIC or instructor along with you, in which case that makes a world of difference. If it was you, by yourself, consider reading about the five dangerous pilot attitudes, particularly the ones about invulnerability and macho.

 

[poadeleted20]

Either way, I think it's definitely possible to do that even without IFR training, and it's something we should be able to expect. IMO, of course

I agree -- in part. My experience suggests that you're right that it's possible some non-IR pilots might be able to do this, but that it's not something we can expect the average non-IR pilot to do.

Back to this specific topic. We're talking about an emergency situation in which a VFR only pilot has to execute a coupled IFR approach. This isn't about inadvertent IMC. And I would imagine that any reasonable proficient pilot could be talked through how to engage the auto pilot and activate the approach and such and then let the AP fly the approach.

Again, I'd say it's possible, but not something one can expect. For one thing, it's not all that likely there will be someone in the ATC facility who can talk someone through this blind. That would require pretty good instrument instructional skills along with familiarity with the particular GPS and the particular autopilot in the plane and the ability to visualize all that without seeing it, and also not being caught by some unusual interface between the two -- every installation is different. If I were called in to assist in that case, I'd try to get them just to use the autopilot, and to work out a radar-directed talkdown rather than a coupled approach, where one wrong button-push can ruin everything.

 

[gismo]

Back to this specific topic. We're talking about an emergency situation in which a VFR only pilot has to execute a coupled IFR approach. This isn't about inadvertent IMC. And I would imagine that any reasonable proficient pilot could be talked through how to engage the auto pilot and activate the approach and such and then let the AP fly the approach. Like I said, I don't see why that would be that hard with proper guidance from ATC/an ATC provided CFI.

I'm trying to understand what the point is here. I can't imagine any VFR on ly pilot upgrading their 430 to a 430W so that they'd have a better chance of surviving a coupled approach in IMC and I definitely don't believe that any sane VFR only pilot would count on that capability to facilitate pushing into situations where that's the only way out.

So even if it were a given (and I think we all agree it isn't) that most non-IR pilots could execute an approach in IMC using an autopilot to do all the flying up to the final descent from DA or MDA with any degree of certainty, what behavior would you expect that to change????

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Back to this specific topic. We're talking about an emergency situation in which a VFR only pilot has to execute a coupled IFR approach. This isn't about inadvertent IMC.

So, they're going to "have to" do this accidentally on purpose?

 

[JimNtexas]

A couple of years ago the screen on our Archer's Garmin 430 failed. I don't recall the exact numbers, but replacing the 430 screen was only slightly cheaper than upgrading to the 430W.

 

[cirrusmx]

for vfr only flying you might as well get an ipad, external gps, and foreflight. you will save thousands of dollars for the same value. or get a chart and slide rule for ten bucks.

for ifr having WAAS on board is totally worth it.