Garmin 430 vs 430w

stapler101

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stapler101
Is the investment in the 430w worthwhile (over the 430) for a non-ifr pilot? I don't have an instrument rating but I do have a plane and auto pilot capable of using the bells and whistles of the wass.
 
Is the investment in the 430w worthwhile (over the 430) for a non-ifr pilot? I don't have an instrument rating but I do have a plane and auto pilot capable of using the bells and whistles of the wass.

For VFR only use the advantages are hard to find.
 
I haven't even found the advantages of the W under IFR. No WAAS approaches where I go.
 
So far the only advantages I have found are practice approaches. They are nice, but probably not so much neceassary for VFR. The 430 is a great device, though. Definitely better than the KLN94 I had previously.
 
One thing. The 430 is no longer (or any now) supported by Garmin so if it fails it will have to be upgraded to a 430W.
 
Based on flying with both WAAS and non-WAAS 430/530's, I see advantage whatsoever for VFR flying.
 
For strictly VFR flying, does the 430w offer any advantage over a 496 or similar?
 
One thing. The 430 is no longer (or any now) supported by Garmin so if it fails it will have to be upgraded to a 430W.

This is not correct. The 430 is no longer in production, but support is still available, although I understand that some of the early units that are 28 volts only as compared to 11-31 volts may not be able to be repaired due to a lack of some parts.
 
This is not correct. The 430 is no longer in production, but support is still available, although I understand that some of the early units that are 28 volts only as compared to 11-31 volts may not be able to be repaired due to a lack of some parts.
I sure hope I'm wrong. I will search for the source of my info.

Joe
 
WAAS is irrelevant to a VFR pilot.

It would be relevant if you were to 1) get your IR or 2) try to sell your plane. Most folks will deduct for non-WAAS gps installations. If you sell to another VFR-only pilot it's irrelevant, but for me a non-WAAS Gps is a negative in a potential acquisition. The advantages for IFR flying, IMHO, are tremendous. The cost to upgrade a non-WAAS 430 is significant. If you accept the paradigm that it is better to buy a plane with the avionics you want, then ceteris paribus, a non-WAAS unit will reduce the value of an aircraft relative to one that has a WAAS installation.
 
One thing. The 430 is no longer (or any now) supported by Garmin so if it fails it will have to be upgraded to a 430W.
Are you sure about that? I know there was an issue with some 28v only units (W or non-W, I can't remember which) but AFaIK Garmin still repairs non-W units they just don't sell new ones any more.
 
WAAS is irrelevant to a VFR pilot.

It would be relevant if you were to 1) get your IR or 2) try to sell your plane. Most folks will deduct for non-WAAS gps installations. If you sell to another VFR-only pilot it's irrelevant, but for me a non-WAAS Gps is a negative in a potential acquisition. The advantages for IFR flying, IMHO, are tremendous. The cost to upgrade a non-WAAS 430 is significant. If you accept the paradigm that it is better to buy a plane with the avionics you want, then ceteris paribus, a non-WAAS unit will reduce the value of an aircraft relative to one that has a WAAS installation.

While that's all true, upgrading a 430 to 430W isn't going to increase the market value of an airplane by anywhere near the cost of the upgrade. If a VFR only pilot was considering a new installation of a non-W 430 the market value increase and any potential for the pilot to become IR would be factors worth considering but if the 430 is already installed I'd wait until there was some immediate value before upgrading.
 
So far the only advantages I have found are practice approaches. They are nice, but probably not so much neceassary for VFR. The 430 is a great device, though. Definitely better than the KLN94 I had previously.
There are several advantages of WAAS GPS over non-WAAS on IFR flights such as lower mins on many approaches, vertical guidance on almost all approaches, being legal to fly IFR without having logged a VOR check in the last 30 days, using airports with only GPS approaches for alternates, etc. But none of that applies to VFR flights.
 
Are you sure about that? I know there was an issue with some 28v only units (W or non-W, I can't remember which) but AFaIK Garmin still repairs non-W units they just don't sell new ones any more.
No I'm not sure.
I do remember hearing some of the parts were no longer available but I do not know where I got that.

I'll looks through my emails and see if I can find it.

Joe
 
thanks for the replies.
I guess I should have said that I have a 430 in the plane but I am considering selling it and installing the 430w.
I don't have my instrument rating but, due to business, I fly long distances frequently and I thought that although not "legal", in an emergency the wass guidance might get me safely (at least safer) on the ground.
And yes, IFR training is in my future, just not right now.
 
thanks for the replies.
I guess I should have said that I have a 430 in the plane but I am considering selling it and installing the 430w.
I don't have my instrument rating but, due to business, I fly long distances frequently and I thought that although not "legal", in an emergency the wass guidance might get me safely (at least safer) on the ground.
And yes, IFR training is in my future, just not right now.

Do not, not, not, not, not depend on, plan for, or otherwise expect to survive -- as a VFR pilot -- an "emergency" IFR approach with a 430W.
 
As of the end of this past September, Garmin is not longer supporting the non-waas database, it does support repairs to the equipment, obviously, and encourages (surprised?) upgrades of non-waas to waas or replacement with waas equipment. How do I know-the Garmin field rep at my home drome and I discussed it face to face in August. Note, that I am NOT talking about the Jepp monthly updates to the navigation database via the skybound downloads. AFAIK they will continue on.

It's interesting how the waas-non waas debate goes on. I guess it has alot to do with your ratings and airspace. In the northeast, there are a proliferation of waas certified approaches, and the 430W certainly takes advantage of those opportunities. As well, having the Aera510 hard wired to the 430W provides a margin of backup in an avionics panel failure. Pesonally, I'll take all the tools in the plane I can get.
 
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thanks for the replies.
I guess I should have said that I have a 430 in the plane but I am considering selling it and installing the 430w.
I don't have my instrument rating but, due to business, I fly long distances frequently and I thought that although not "legal", in an emergency the wass guidance might get me safely (at least safer) on the ground.
And yes, IFR training is in my future, just not right now.

Flying long distances and good weather are often not compatible. If you are going to use your airplane for long distance business related travel, forget about the upgrade to a 430W and get your instrument rating. If money isn't the issue, do both.

What ever you do, it is a very bad plan to fly in marginal or worse conditions without an instrument rating and is a recipe for disaster.
 
Do not, not, not, not, not depend on, plan for, or otherwise expect to survive -- as a VFR pilot -- an "emergency" IFR approach with a 430W.

Not to encourage the behavior, but if you have a capable autopilot coupled to the GPS, I think survival would be 99.9999%. Survival of your pilot certificate however...
 
For someone without instrument training, I don't think the WAAS would make much difference over a non-WAAS 430/530 for survival in a weather emergency. It generally takes IR trainees 5-10 ILS's before they're tracking GS well, so having the vertical guidance needle probably won't make that much difference on their first experience with GS, no less their first experience with GS in the weather, and without prior tutelage. Heck, a good portion of my trainees can't remember whether an "up" needle means "fly up" or "you're above the GS so fly down" on their first attempt. Add the stress of a weather emergency and zero training, and they might do better without it just flying altitudes.
 
For someone without instrument training, I don't think the WAAS would make much difference over a non-WAAS 430/530 for survival in a weather emergency. It generally takes IR trainees 5-10 ILS's before they're tracking GS well, so having the vertical guidance needle probably won't make that much difference on their first experience with GS, no less their first experience with GS in the weather, and without prior tutelage. Heck, a good portion of my trainees can't remember whether an "up" needle means "fly up" or "you're above the GS so fly down" on their first attempt. Add the stress of a weather emergency and zero training, and they might do better without it just flying altitudes.

I thought the WAAS versions would fly the GPS "glideslopes" with the correct autopilot. :confused:
 
I thought the WAAS versions would fly the GPS "glideslopes" with the correct autopilot. :confused:
They will, if the right interfacing is also installed. My comments were primarily directed at hand-flying in that situation. Obviously, if the airplane has a 2-axis autopilot and the pilot knows how to use it to its fullest extent, then there's a big advantage in a weather emergency, and WAAS will increase the number of airport/runways to which you can fly a 2-axis coupled approach. But overall, I agree with John Collins -- if you can't do both, spend the money on training, rather than equipment. To misquote Freewheelin' Franklin, "Training will get you through times of no equipment better than equipment will get you through times of no training."
 
Yeah, I don't suggest using the A/P as a backup plan either. What if it goes TU ?
 
I thought the WAAS versions would fly the GPS "glideslopes" with the correct autopilot. :confused:
Yes they will, and with GPSS they'll do an even better job. But relying on that to pull your bacon out of the fire after getting into IMC as a VFR pilot would be foolhardy and extremely dangerous. I'm not saying one shouldn't try that if there were no other options, just that it shouldn't be a part of anyone's plan.
 
Yeah, I don't suggest using the A/P as a backup plan either. What if it goes TU ?
I seem to remember a doctor who flew his Bonanza out of Louisville years ago. No IR, but he flew IFR in the clouds all the time -- told everyone the autopilot took care of everything. One day, the autopilot failed at about 1500 feet on departure -- into a 400-foot ceiling. RIP*.

But they are out there -- just waiting for Darwin to catch up with them.



*That's "Rest in Pieces."
 
Yeah, I don't suggest using the A/P as a backup plan either. What if it goes TU ?

I would not count on the autopilot. Although it can be a life saver, it won't save your life if you don't know how to use it. I seriously doubt that VFR only pilots regularly practice approaches using their autopilot. Heck, there are a good number of IFR pilots who can't shoot an approach with their autopilot, why, because they have never been taught how to operate it and they don't routinely practice approaches using their autopilot.

WAAS does have vertical guidance (a glidepath - in most instances) and a two axis autopilot with GS tracking capability can automate much of the approach. But you don't need WAAS to fly an ILS with the same capability. Questions you might ask yourself, do I know when a WAAS approach has a glidepath, how low can I descend on the glidepath, how do you execute an ILS with your autopilot, how does this differ from a WAAS approach?

Then ask the following questions, is my life insurance current and adequate for my family and is my will up to date?
 
For someone without instrument training, I don't think the WAAS would make much difference over a non-WAAS 430/530 for survival in a weather emergency. It generally takes IR trainees 5-10 ILS's before they're tracking GS well, so having the vertical guidance needle probably won't make that much difference on their first experience with GS, no less their first experience with GS in the weather, and without prior tutelage. Heck, a good portion of my trainees can't remember whether an "up" needle means "fly up" or "you're above the GS so fly down" on their first attempt. Add the stress of a weather emergency and zero training, and they might do better without it just flying altitudes.


We are in complete agreement.

Astonishment may commence.
 
I haven't even found the advantages of the W under IFR. No WAAS approaches where I go.

The W's give you a glideslope even on non-WAAS GPS approaches, they can fly holds and procedure turns when coupled with the proper autopilot.

For a VFR pilot, I don't see the difference.

For a VFR pilot who eventually wants to be an IFR pilot, might as well do it at some point - But the IR is WAY WAY WAY more important than a W upgrade!
 
The W's give you a glideslope even on non-WAAS GPS approaches,
...but not, for LNAV+V, at the same level of accuracy as LPV approaches. Yes, it may be better than no GS, but there are limitations associated of which the non-IR pilot would probably not be aware.
 
Do not, not, not, not, not depend on, plan for, or otherwise expect to survive -- as a VFR pilot -- an "emergency" IFR approach with a 430W.
I certainly agree that one shouldn't depend on it, but it's reasonable to expect to survive an emergency IFR approach as a VFR pilot with an autopilot (even without an AP). Sure it wouldn't be fun, but it's perfectly doable if you're a reasonably proficient pilot.
 
I certainly agree that one shouldn't depend on it, but it's reasonable to expect to survive an emergency IFR approach as a VFR pilot with an autopilot (even without an AP). Sure it wouldn't be fun, but it's perfectly doable if you're a reasonably proficient pilot.
You mean "a reasonably proficient instrument pilot"? Because not many of the folks I've trained for IR over the last four years would have survived an emergency IFR approach, even with an autopilot, before they started the training.
 
You mean "a reasonably proficient instrument pilot"? Because not many of the folks I've trained for IR over the last four years would have survived an emergency IFR approach, even with an autopilot, before they started the training.
No, I mean a reasonably proficient VFR only pilot. We're talking about emergencies here, right? Obviously, I would never rely on doing this if I didn't have my IR, nor would it be legal.

But I think it's reasonable to expect a VFR pilot to be able to perform a successful IFR approach with a GPS and autopilot in an emergency. It's really not that hard.
 
No, I mean a reasonably proficient VFR only pilot. We're talking about emergencies here, right? Obviously, I would never rely on doing this if I didn't have my IR, nor would it be legal.

But I think it's reasonable to expect a VFR pilot to be able to perform a successful IFR approach with a GPS and autopilot in an emergency. It's really not that hard.

Especially if it's tracking the course just fine, and ATC is giving them step down altitudes. Ron must just get some bad students.
 
No, I mean a reasonably proficient VFR only pilot. We're talking about emergencies here, right? Obviously, I would never rely on doing this if I didn't have my IR, nor would it be legal.

But I think it's reasonable to expect a VFR pilot to be able to perform a successful IFR approach with a GPS and autopilot in an emergency. It's really not that hard.


Seriously? This is plain dumb. If a VFR-only pilot gets into IMC, do you think he/she is going to have the werewithal to engage to A/P and then load, arm, and manage an approach?

Puh-leeze.

This is akin to suggesting that a non-driver would be fine taking over on the freeway since the car has airbags.
 
Seriously? This is plain dumb. If a VFR-only pilot gets into IMC, do you think he/she is going to have the werewithal to engage to A/P and then load, arm, and manage an approach?

Puh-leeze.
Ummmm....yes? And you don't think this minimum level of training can be expected? The very first thing I would do is hit ONE button and engage the AP in wing level mode.

This is akin to suggesting that a non-driver would be fine taking over on the freeway since the car has airbags.
No, it's not akin to that. It's akin to expecting someone who's got a motorcycle license but has only driven a car for a few hours to take over. Which he'll probably be able to do.
 
Ummmm....yes? And you don't think this minimum level of training can be expected? The very first thing I would do is hit ONE button and engage the AP in wing level mode.

Felix,

I've been thinking this over and while I thought the way you do at first, I'm thinking that in reality Ron is probably right.

Those of us who participate in these forums are learning and flying much more than Joe Average Pilot, and are likely much better pilots for it.

Also, those of us who are instrument rated find that stuff easy, because for us, it is. But for your average VFR pilot, not so much.

Finally, I've heard that a good way to be really scared by the state of the average pilot is to become a CFI and start doing flight reviews. Plus, it doesn't take too many trips through the news and the NTSB reports to find that we're not nearly as good as we think we are, on average.
 
But I think it's reasonable to expect a VFR pilot to be able to perform a successful IFR approach with a GPS and autopilot in an emergency. It's really not that hard.
I think that's a matter of opinion. Mine's based on observation over the last four years of several dozen IR trainees with no instrument training beyond that required for PP. YMMV.
 
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Ron must just get some bad students.
No, they're usually very good students, and are fine instrument pilots once trained. However, going into the IR course, they've just not had any training on or practice in flying by instruments (I mean zero instrument time) beyond the 3 hours (or less, for some of the older ones) they got for their private many years ago, including quite a few flight reviews without any instrument work (another story entirely). And it shows.
 
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