Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.
Actually,, that is a 4 way circuit... but they act and wire the same... Kinda.
Actually,, that is a 4 way circuit... but they act and wire the same... Kinda.
Garage Electrical Quandry.
- Thread starter AdamZ
- Start date
redtail
En-Route
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2011
- Messages
- 4,407
- Location
- 93 million miles from the sun
- Display Name
- Redtail
- Home Airfield
- FRG
Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.
Yep, my electrical teacher used to pull all kinds of tricks on us to get that point across
. 3-way, 4-way, dpst, etc.
Speaking of which, If you look at that schematic in post#22, the wiring is perfect but the picture of the 3-way switches, is wrong.
There is no ON/OFF on a 3-way.
Yep, my electrical teacher used to pull all kinds of tricks on us to get that point across
. 3-way, 4-way, dpst, etc.Speaking of which, If you look at that schematic in post#22, the wiring is perfect but the picture of the 3-way switches, is wrong.
There is no ON/OFF on a 3-way.
Alexb2000
En-Route
Matthew
Touchdown! Greaser!
Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.
Yeah - it was a mess. I don't know what started it all, but I could see where he had removed, swapped, reconnected, tried again, until he finally gave up.
Actually,, that is a 4 way circuit... but they act and wire the same... Kinda.
Yeah - it was a mess. I don't know what started it all, but I could see where he had removed, swapped, reconnected, tried again, until he finally gave up.
CJones
Final Approach
Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.
Sounds like the commercial from a few years ago where the guy is trying to figure out what this mysterious switch does, so he keeps flipping it on and off to see what lights turn on/off... Meanwhile his neighbor's garage door is opening/closing onto his car.
Sounds like the commercial from a few years ago where the guy is trying to figure out what this mysterious switch does, so he keeps flipping it on and off to see what lights turn on/off... Meanwhile his neighbor's garage door is opening/closing onto his car.
ron22
Cleared for Takeoff
SCCutler
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2005
- Messages
- 17,409
- Display Name
- Spike Cutler
- Home Airfield
- T82
Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.
So Adam - WHERE was the freakin' switch?
---
My house was a hum-dinger in 1951, lots of 4-way circuits. There's a switch panel in the bedroom at the very back of the house, has six switches. Bedroom socket (makes sense); backyard floodlight (OK, makes some sense); garage light (hmmm, less so); front room light (really?); front porch light (this is gettin' silly); and the itty-bitty spot over the dining table in the formal dining room (!). It was several months after we moved into the house before we figured that last one out.
We surmise that the original owners wanted to be able to light up the front of the house if they heard something.
So Adam - WHERE was the freakin' switch?
---
My house was a hum-dinger in 1951, lots of 4-way circuits. There's a switch panel in the bedroom at the very back of the house, has six switches. Bedroom socket (makes sense); backyard floodlight (OK, makes some sense); garage light (hmmm, less so); front room light (really?); front porch light (this is gettin' silly); and the itty-bitty spot over the dining table in the formal dining room (!). It was several months after we moved into the house before we figured that last one out.
We surmise that the original owners wanted to be able to light up the front of the house if they heard something.
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 11,346
- Location
- Lone Jack, MO
- Display Name
- Greg Bockelman
- Home Airfield
- KLXT KLRY 87MO
Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.
LMAO. That HAD to be the solution. Glad to be of service, Adam.
So, where was the hidden switch?
LMAO. That HAD to be the solution. Glad to be of service, Adam.
So, where was the hidden switch?
AdamZ
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2005
- Messages
- 14,872
- Location
- Montgomery County PA
- Display Name
- Adam Zucker
- Home Airfield
- KLOM
Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.
Well I have to tell you I was betting mice. Field mice become house mice where I live in the cooler months. The number of seed shells I sometimes find in my basement drop ceiling is quite impressive. I've had squirrels do close to $1000 in damage to the wiring in my cars. As a result I will not put any bird feeders near my house. My wife likes to put up that Indian Corn in the fall as decorations, drives me nuts.
Alex are you saying the White wire on the switch is on the wrong pole? Should it be swtiched with one of the other wires?
I'll have to check but I think that 3 way actually does have "on " " off" written on it.
Its in a useful place IF you don't put a board up over it to hang yard tools from!
When folks commented it was a three way switch AND I notice all the extra wires comming into the junction box where the fixture is I thought that had to be it.
Now I have to tell you that some of the stuff I've found in my house from wiring to framing to HVAC stuff makes me scratch my head. Actually it makes me go What THE....?
So I went back into the garage and played the whole " if I were putting in a second switch where would I put it routine. The garage is attached but there is no entry to the house but rather a door opposite the overhead door. It was near that door. The plate was covered over and there was only a gap in the wood wide enough for the switch stem itself. I had a lamp post put in and wiring run for a hot tub this summer and I suspect the workmen must have found it flipped it and in the interim the blub burnt out. I think the hidden one was some kind of master switch as the one I was working on would only work if the hidden one was on.
As for hot switches. Working on electical I take no chances. I get a work out as I am always running up and down from the breaker panel in the basement to turn it off and on as my wife an daughter refuse to hang out in my basement shop and flip swithches. LOL
Just saw this thread. Glad you figured it out Adam. I was thinking mice
.....
Well I have to tell you I was betting mice. Field mice become house mice where I live in the cooler months. The number of seed shells I sometimes find in my basement drop ceiling is quite impressive. I've had squirrels do close to $1000 in damage to the wiring in my cars. As a result I will not put any bird feeders near my house. My wife likes to put up that Indian Corn in the fall as decorations, drives me nuts.
Alex are you saying the White wire on the switch is on the wrong pole? Should it be swtiched with one of the other wires?
Yeah that got a few guys on the test.
It's really easy. Just look at the toggle itself. If it has ON/OFF written on it, it has to be double-pole switch (or single pole but that would only have two screws, not four).
3-way and 4-way switches have nothing written on the toggle, because they're always ON and OFF. No matter what position they're in, they always make one circuit while breaking another.
I'll have to check but I think that 3 way actually does have "on " " off" written on it.
Its in a useful place IF you don't put a board up over it to hang yard tools from!
When folks commented it was a three way switch AND I notice all the extra wires comming into the junction box where the fixture is I thought that had to be it.
Now I have to tell you that some of the stuff I've found in my house from wiring to framing to HVAC stuff makes me scratch my head. Actually it makes me go What THE....?
So I went back into the garage and played the whole " if I were putting in a second switch where would I put it routine. The garage is attached but there is no entry to the house but rather a door opposite the overhead door. It was near that door. The plate was covered over and there was only a gap in the wood wide enough for the switch stem itself. I had a lamp post put in and wiring run for a hot tub this summer and I suspect the workmen must have found it flipped it and in the interim the blub burnt out. I think the hidden one was some kind of master switch as the one I was working on would only work if the hidden one was on.
As for hot switches. Working on electical I take no chances. I get a work out as I am always running up and down from the breaker panel in the basement to turn it off and on as my wife an daughter refuse to hang out in my basement shop and flip swithches. LOL
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2008
- Messages
- 16,742
- Location
- DXO124009
- Display Name
- Light and Sporty Guy
- Home Airfield
- ONZ
Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.
Do not re-arrange wires on your switch. You have a circuit that is wired like this:
The issue is that the white wire at the left switch is connected to the black (hot) wire up at the light so the white wire is hot in the left switch box - it really should have some black tape around it to show that it is being used as a hot conductor. Different ways to wire three / 4 way circuits here.
If you have functioning three way switches in each spot, you should be able to switch the light on and off from either switch no matter how the other switch is set. If the light only works when your hidden switch (the one on the left in the above diagram) is set one way - something is wrong.
Do not re-arrange wires on your switch. You have a circuit that is wired like this:
The issue is that the white wire at the left switch is connected to the black (hot) wire up at the light so the white wire is hot in the left switch box - it really should have some black tape around it to show that it is being used as a hot conductor. Different ways to wire three / 4 way circuits here.
If you have functioning three way switches in each spot, you should be able to switch the light on and off from either switch no matter how the other switch is set. If the light only works when your hidden switch (the one on the left in the above diagram) is set one way - something is wrong.
Alexb2000
En-Route
Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.
Adam-
As mentioned above if everything is working then just put a stripe of black tape around the white wire about 1 inch from the screw terminals on both switches and leave it alone, it will be fine. Also turn off the breaker and test every connection for juice prior to working on anything in your house.
I was just making the point that the work you showed was non-standard and not code compliant. More a comment about "electricians" who do this kind of thing.
Adam-
As mentioned above if everything is working then just put a stripe of black tape around the white wire about 1 inch from the screw terminals on both switches and leave it alone, it will be fine. Also turn off the breaker and test every connection for juice prior to working on anything in your house.
I was just making the point that the work you showed was non-standard and not code compliant. More a comment about "electricians" who do this kind of thing.
redtail
En-Route
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2011
- Messages
- 4,407
- Location
- 93 million miles from the sun
- Display Name
- Redtail
- Home Airfield
- FRG
Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.
There should be no "master switch" in a properly wired 3-way or 4-way switch circuit. And you're right, electricians get lazy (or the person doing the wiring don't know any better), when it comes to using the white wire as a hot. You're supposed to put some colored tape around it. As long as it's not green tape, which signifies, ground.
Yep, I've seen it countless times
Do not re-arrange wires on your switch. You have a circuit that is wired like this:
The issue is that the white wire at the left switch is connected to the black (hot) wire up at the light so the white wire is hot in the left switch box - it really should have some black tape around it to show that it is being used as a hot conductor. Different ways to wire three / 4 way circuits here.
If you have functioning three way switches in each spot, you should be able to switch the light on and off from either switch no matter how the other switch is set. If the light only works when your hidden switch (the one on the left in the above diagram) is set one way - something is wrong.
There should be no "master switch" in a properly wired 3-way or 4-way switch circuit. And you're right, electricians get lazy (or the person doing the wiring don't know any better), when it comes to using the white wire as a hot. You're supposed to put some colored tape around it. As long as it's not green tape, which signifies, ground.
Yep, I've seen it countless times
Last edited:
redtail
En-Route
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2011
- Messages
- 4,407
- Location
- 93 million miles from the sun
- Display Name
- Redtail
- Home Airfield
- FRG
Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.
I rewired a kitchen one time and found they had the whole circuit backwards. Every outlet had the neutral and hot reversed!
Treat ALL wires as potentially hot until you test them
Could be like my house were all the 3/4 way switches switch the neutral not the hot
I rewired a kitchen one time and found they had the whole circuit backwards. Every outlet had the neutral and hot reversed!
Treat ALL wires as potentially hot until you test them
To the Op.... Who I think is the head mod.......
Can you change the spelling of ELECRTICAL... Please..
Can you change the spelling of ELECRTICAL... Please..
Last edited by a moderator:
redtail
En-Route
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2011
- Messages
- 4,407
- Location
- 93 million miles from the sun
- Display Name
- Redtail
- Home Airfield
- FRG
Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.
If it has on/off written on it, it couldn't be a 3-way. A 3-way switch is a single pole, double throw switch. One of the travelers will always be ON and the other OFF.
If your switch has ON/OFF written on it and it has more than two terminal screws, it has to be a double-pole, single throw switch. Usually just called a double pole switch.
Looks like someone replaced a 3-way switch in your garage with the wrong one, which would explain the "master switch" function.
Here's a double pole-switch, which is basically two, regular, single-pole switches connected to the same physical toggle, but isolated electrically. Usually used in 240v circuits where you have to kill both hot legs at the same time.
http://www.alfresco-heating.com/double-pole-single-throw-wall-switch-white-30-amps
If it has on/off written on it, it couldn't be a 3-way. A 3-way switch is a single pole, double throw switch. One of the travelers will always be ON and the other OFF.
If your switch has ON/OFF written on it and it has more than two terminal screws, it has to be a double-pole, single throw switch. Usually just called a double pole switch.
Looks like someone replaced a 3-way switch in your garage with the wrong one, which would explain the "master switch" function.
Here's a double pole-switch, which is basically two, regular, single-pole switches connected to the same physical toggle, but isolated electrically. Usually used in 240v circuits where you have to kill both hot legs at the same time.
http://www.alfresco-heating.com/double-pole-single-throw-wall-switch-white-30-amps
Last edited:
AdamZ
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2005
- Messages
- 14,872
- Location
- Montgomery County PA
- Display Name
- Adam Zucker
- Home Airfield
- KLOM
To the Op.... Who I think is the head mod.......
Can you change the spelling of ELECRTICAL... Please..
Don't know what your talking about
Head mod? Thanks for the promtion! Not sure why my salary increase didn't take effect LOL:wink2:
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2010
- Messages
- 6,581
- Display Name
- GeorgeC
Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.
Hmm! I have a switch in the garage that behaves that way. It's supposed to be a 3-way switch, but the light only works in one of the four switch configurations.
Hmm! I have a switch in the garage that behaves that way. It's supposed to be a 3-way switch, but the light only works in one of the four switch configurations.
That's a three way switch, unless it was lighted. Regular switches don't need three wires.
You have another switch that controls the light at the other door?
redtail
En-Route
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2011
- Messages
- 4,407
- Location
- 93 million miles from the sun
- Display Name
- Redtail
- Home Airfield
- FRG
Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.
It could be wired wrong. The hot leg could be attached to one of the travelers instead of the common. If that's the case, it would behave as a single pole switch (on/off).
The "common" terminal screw is usually painted black or dark shade, but I've seen some where you couldn't tell the difference. The only way would be to confirm each terminal via a continuity check.
Caution: if you're going to do that, turn off the power (confirm with voltage tester) and remove the switch from the circuit before checking continuity.
We usually check them live with a voltmeter, but I had to put in that little CYA disclaimer
It could be wired wrong. The hot leg could be attached to one of the travelers instead of the common. If that's the case, it would behave as a single pole switch (on/off).
The "common" terminal screw is usually painted black or dark shade, but I've seen some where you couldn't tell the difference. The only way would be to confirm each terminal via a continuity check.
Caution: if you're going to do that, turn off the power (confirm with voltage tester) and remove the switch from the circuit before checking continuity.
We usually check them live with a voltmeter, but I had to put in that little CYA disclaimer
Last edited:
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.
It's most likely that one of the switches has a bad contact or a wire is loose.
redtail
En-Route
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2011
- Messages
- 4,407
- Location
- 93 million miles from the sun
- Display Name
- Redtail
- Home Airfield
- FRG
Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.
That's true. Check for loose connections first.
Sometimes I overthink simple things, my wife tells me that all the time
That's true. Check for loose connections first.
Sometimes I overthink simple things, my wife tells me that all the time
3393RP
En-Route
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2012
- Messages
- 4,720
- Display Name
- 3393RP
Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.
Yep. Ten years ago we redid our house. I replaced every switch and receptacle with Decora style devices. To save a few bucks I bought Eagle stuff instead of Leviton, that was a mistake.
I have replaced several three way switches that have failed. When they go bad it's off to Home Depot for the Leviton stuff and a quick changeout.
You would think I'd have known better...
Yep. Ten years ago we redid our house. I replaced every switch and receptacle with Decora style devices. To save a few bucks I bought Eagle stuff instead of Leviton, that was a mistake.
I have replaced several three way switches that have failed. When they go bad it's off to Home Depot for the Leviton stuff and a quick changeout.
You would think I'd have known better...
jhausch
Cleared for Takeoff
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2008
- Messages
- 1,417
- Display Name
- jhausch
Yep. Ten years ago we redid our house. I replaced every switch and receptacle with Decora style devices. To save a few bucks I bought Eagle stuff instead of Leviton, that was a mistake.
I have replaced several three way switches that have failed. When they go bad it's off to Home Depot for the Leviton stuff and a quick changeout.
You would think I'd have known better...
True 'dat
Used "CHEETAH SPEED" on our new house. I've replaced probably (12) 3-ways.....