Garage Electrical Quandry.

AdamZ

AdamZ

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Adam Zucker
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So need a bit of Electricsl advice for the home not the plane which I don't have. LOL. Anyway, my house is about 50 yrs old. We've lived here just shy of 20 years. In my garage there is a light switch that controls a small fixture in the Middle of the garage ceiling. Recently it just stopped working. I thought eh it's the 20 yr old CFL bulb. I figured I got my $ worth out of that bulb andurchased another. But. It didn't work nor did an incandescent that I pulled out of a la in the house.

So I figure the switch that as been there for longer than I've lived here went bad, it's a rough duty being in that cold garage exposed to cold, heat and moisture. I take off the plate and use my handy dandy tester, and there is power to the switch AND it goes off when I Turn the switch off. The old switch, photo attached has black, red and white attached but the ground wire is not attached. I test the wires at the fixture and nada, zip, zilch. Photo of fixture attached as well.

I then install a new switch, Attach Black and white and the ground wire from the box to the green screw. Photo attached Still nothing at the fixture. Logic says something in between is screwed up. But I don't feel like ripping out all the drywall in the garage. Any ideas?

Photo is the new switch
 

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Ugh can only post one photo at a time on iPad. This is the old switch
 

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And this is the fixture
 

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Do you have mice or squirrels? If you have power coming out of the switch, but not at the fixture, something ain't right. You don't happen to have another switch in that circuit, do you? I've seen some creative wiring in garages.

Or maybe the fixture is bad.
 
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Matthew said:
Do you have mice or squirrels? If you have power coming out of the switch, but not at the fixture, something ain't right. You don't happen to have another switch in that circuit, do you? I've seen some creative wiring in garages.

Or maybe the fixture is bad.
Click to expand...

There is on outlet in the garage that is not switched and the electric door opener which all work fine. I was thinking mice.:dunno:
 
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Here is what we see in the south based on the age of the wiring.

The old school way was to take power to the fixture and drop a switch leg to the switch. The third wire on the switch "may" be for a 3-way switch...I can't be sure...

Is there power at the switch?
Is there another switch?
Doe the old switch work? i.e. Can you get continuity across the switch in the "on" position and open on the off position?
 
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Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.

Kelvin said:
Here is what we see in the south based on the age of the wiring.

The old school way was to take power to the fixture and drop a switch leg to the switch. The third wire on the switch "may" be for a 3-way switch...I can't be sure...

Is there power at the switch?
Click to expand...

Yup, there is power at the switch.
 
Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.

Cool...but power on the switch does no necessarily eliminate the old school wiring...

See if there is power on the fixture...at any point....if there is and the switch is off or out of the circuit..you have the old school wiring scheme...
 
Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.

Kelvin said:
The old school way was to take power to the fixture and drop a switch leg to the switch. The third wire on the switch "may" be for a 3-way switch...I can't be sure...
Click to expand...

That's why I was asking about another switch. It does look like a 3-way wiring, but it's been a long time since I've done that and I can't remember for sure.
 
Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.

Matthew said:
That's why I was asking about another switch. It does look like a 3-way wiring, but it's been a long time since I've done that and I can't remember for sure.
Click to expand...

I was following with you!

I have been bit a time or two in older spaces with the scheme...
 
Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.

Kelvin said:
Cool...but power on the switch does no necessarily eliminate the old school wiring...

See if there is power on the fixture...at any point....if there is and the switch is off or out of the circuit..you have the old school wiring scheme...
Click to expand...

Matthew said:
That's why I was asking about another switch. It does look like a 3-way wiring, but it's been a long time since I've done that and I can't remember for sure.
Click to expand...

Kelvin, the wiring at the fixture is not hot, no power.. I unscrewed it as I thought it might up just be a the fixture gave up the ghost, but wiring at fixture had no power. Matt only one switch.
 
Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.

AdamZ said:
Kelvin, the wiring at the fixture is not hot, no power.. I unscrewed it as I thought it might up just be a the fixture gave up the ghost, but wiring at fixture had no power. Matt only one switch.
Click to expand...

Adam...it "should be as simple as" (Lord knows I HATE that phrase :D)

Switching the power on with the switch leg and getting it to the fixture...past the fixture..it need to hit a neutral....that will complete the circuit.

Just had a aha moment...it looks like you may have a 3 way switch in the circuit and didn't need it...I could easily be wrong...

Meter the new switch to find out what makes and breaks...put the hot leg on one side of that and the wire to the light on the other...

See if you now have voltage at the fixture...if not then we need to look at the integrity of the wiring from the switch to the fixture then to the neutral beyond the fixture...

Check the resistance of the leg that goes up to the light fixture...should be very low...like as in 0.00 ohms...
 
Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.

Kelvin said:
Here is what we see in the south based on the age of the wiring.

The old school way was to take power to the fixture and drop a switch leg to the switch. The third wire on the switch "may" be for a 3-way switch...I can't be sure...

Is there power at the switch?
Is there another switch?
Doe the old switch work? i.e. Can you get continuity across the switch in the "on" position and open on the off position?
Click to expand...

This is certainly possible. Is there another light (outside)? A junction box somewhere nearby?


AdamZ said:
Kelvin, the wiring at the fixture is not hot, no power.. I unscrewed it as I thought it might up just be a the fixture gave up the ghost, but wiring at fixture had no power. Matt only one switch.
Click to expand...

This could prove interesting. Note that the wiring at the switch is red/white/black-green(?). The wiring at the fixture looks to be black/white. Do you have access from above the ceiling of the garage? I'm sure you have checked all the breakers. Any nearby juction boxes?

Gary
 
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Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.

AdamZ said:
And this is the fixture
Click to expand...

On further inspection... it looks like there are two sets of wires to the fixture. Can't quite make it out, but appears that a white AND a black leg are wire-nuted together.

Kelvin may be correct that the fixture is wired for two switches. One possibility is to take apart all the connections at the fixture and check which actually go to the present switch.

Gary
 
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Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.

I'm still thinking it's a 3-way switch. Maybe the other one got removed from the circuit over the years. You could replace it with another 3-way instead of the switch you just bought.. (Note - I am NOT an electrician!)
 
Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.

Before you replace anything else or demolish the ceiling looking for a junction box, you need to check all wires concerned, for continuity and shorts.
Make sure the whole mess is dead, by either removing what seems to be the "hot" leg from the switch or finding the breaker and turning it off. Remove any switch or fixture involved.
Then "ring out" the lines with a continuity tester. By shorting wires together, you can also ID all of them, which will help sort out how the whole mess is really wired. Color coding may deceive you if there is a junction box somewhere.
Be aware, also, that correct color coding is not always used, nor are splices, etc. always done right... I've seen some wacky electrical installs in my years doing renovations, and living all these years in an old factory building that has been worked on by some very questionable "electricians".
 
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Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.

rottydaddy said:
Before you replace anything else or demolish the ceiling looking for a junction box, you need to check all wires concerned, for continuity and shorts.
Make sure the whole mess is dead, by either removing what seems to be the "hot" leg from the switch or finding the breaker and turning it off. Remove any switch or fixture involved.
Then "ring out" the lines with a continuity tester. By shorting wires together, you can also ID all of them, which will help sort out how the whole mess is really wired. Color coding may deceive you if there is a junction box somewhere.
Click to expand...

:yeahthat:
 
Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.

Kelvin said:
:yeahthat:
Click to expand...
I knew YOU would get that. :wink2:
This simple process is vital when sorting out low-voltage messes, too... like when some idiot cuts back 100 or so freshly-pulled audio lines without moving the temporary labels back first... after, of course, damaging most of the lines by pulling them incorrectly.:rolleyes2:
 
Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.

rottydaddy said:
I knew YOU would get that. :wink2:

This simple process is vital when sorting out low-voltage messes, too... like when some idiot cuts back 100 or so freshly-pulled audio lines without moving the temporary labels back first... after, of course, damaging most of the lines by pulling them incorrectly.:rolleyes2:
Click to expand...

I would choke him till he pooped himself...:yikes::D:yikes:
Click to expand...



Adam, rotty has really said it much more succinctly than I have...doing this methodically is vital. We have power, we have a working switch...now we need to wire switch correctly and look carefully at the next stop for the power...the fixture...

If any of this fails...ringing out the lines is the next step...
 
Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.

Your old switch is a three way switch. Is there some other swtich somewhere that you never knew what it was for?

From the picture of the fixture, you have power coming into the box, then you have a white/black pair going to a switch somewhere. Given that you have red / white / black at the switch you took out, there is at least another box somewhere - possibly covered over, possibly it's that mystery switch - but that's where the black / white turns into black/red/white and there is a non-zero chance that is where you will find the problem.

I assume the black wire in your switch box is the one showing power?

It could be that the return to the light fixture is connected to the red and not the white - or you could stick in a three way switch wired the same way as the original to see what happens.

I mean, what could possibly go wrong? It's just like when your gear won't go down - it's the insurance companies house, eh? (just kidding)

Is there some logical place where the second three way switch could have been? Given that you are seeing the red/white/black at the switch you removed, the box with the probably missing connection would probably be closer to the fixture. But, you never really know - I've seen some strange things.

If it was wired properly and is wired like I assume, the pair of wires coming in the box at the "top" of the fixture as photographed should be the hot wire.
 
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Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.

It's a three way circuit, you need to buy a replacement three way switch.

Here's a schematic, it will help you sort out what wires go where on the new switch...I hope.

3-way-switch.jpg
 
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Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.

Adam in post 11 said there was only one switch. I wonder if there is another one that he forgot about or never found.
 
Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.

A buddy of mine moved into an old house. There was a doorbell button by the back door, on the inside. He couldn't figure out what it did - he'd press it now and then to try to find out what it did, but no luck. A couple months later, a neighbor asked him to stop pushing the button. Turns out, the two old guys who used to live next to each other wired it up to buzz next door in case of a medical emergency.

Who knows, maybe the missing switch is next door?
 
Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.

Unbelievable! Fixed. Found another switch that was hidden for 20 freaking years! Thanks everyone.
 
Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.

Like Cap'n Thorpe wrote, the switch in your picture is definitely a 3 way type and wired like a 3 way would be wired and that means you'll have to figure out where the wires from that switch go. Since you don't have a cable coming into the fixture with a red, white, and black wire (like the one at the switch) the cable from the switch is going somewhere else first.

You may be able to locate the missing switch box by thinking in terms of where it would make sense to locate a second switch. Is this an attached garage or a separate structure? If it's attached, it's possible the other switch location (with or without a switch) is inside the house. That's still possible even if the garage is detached but less likely if the light is inside the garage (vs an external flood). At any possible location, pull the cover and remove the switches so you can see if there are any candidates for the three wire cable in the box. If you find one, see if the wiring there makes any sense for a 3 way arrangement.

If you can't deduce the location for the other end of the cable attached to your switch, you may need to use a cable tracer. You can buy a cheap one from Home Depot for about $40 but I don't know if those are sensitive enough to work through sheetrock. One thing that does work well for this is an old door buzzer attached to a battery plus an AM transistor radio. Connect the buzzer to the battery and one side of the buzzer to one of the wires in the cable (with power off please) and you should be able to follow the path of the wire with the radio.
 
Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.

Late to the game......

As others posted.. it is a classic 3 way circuit.. Once you found the "other" switch then the riddle was solved......

Congrats on getting it working...:thumbsup:
 
Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.

Just saw this thread. Glad you figured it out Adam. I was thinking mice:lol:.

Anyhow, do you guys know how to instantly distinguish the difference between a 3-way (or 4-way) switch and a double-pole switch?

They threw that trick at us on our practical test years ago:lol:.
 
Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.

I would think the color of the screws..but I am up to learn something new!!!

redtail said:
Just saw this thread. Glad you figured it out Adam. I was thinking mice:lol:.

Anyhow, do you guys know how to instantly distinguish the difference between a 3-way (or 4-way) switch and a double-pole switch?

They threw that trick at us on our practical test years ago:lol:.
Click to expand...
 
I do it by the number of screws and location (s), ground screws excluded...however, i guess a 2pst could be confused for a 4 way...
 
Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.

A few weeks ago, I was troubleshooting my friend's lamp post in his front yard. He thought it was the photo cell, so he replaced it. It still wouldn't come on. Checked breaker and found a toggle switch wired in right after the breaker, it was good. Checked GFI on the side of house-it was good.

Then I checked continuity of the wires from the GFI to the lamp post and found an open circuit. When I pulled the wires out of the conduit, they were wet.
The hot wire was broken and charred and it looked like it may have been nicked during the initial pull. Rain made it's way into the conduit and corroded the wires over the years, at the weak point.

That was a lot of fun to solve, because I haven't messed with too many residential circuits in the last 25 years.

My friend had never heard of a continuity check. He said he was going to buy a good multimeter. I told him, just make sure the power is OFF before you start experimenting:yikes::rofl:
 
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Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.

That 3-way is wired back switching vs. the standard 3-way switch wiring. This is completely illegal today because you have a hot white wire that hasn't been re-coded. If you look at the switch picture the white is being used as a traveler vs. a neutral. Someone working on their garage electrical could shock the you know what out of themselves touching that white wire. Dangerous way to do it IMO.
 
Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.

Alexb2000 said:
That 3-way is wired back switching vs. the standard 3-way switch wiring. This is completely illegal today because you have a hot white wire that hasn't been re-coded. If you look at the switch picture the white is being used as a traveler vs. a neutral. Someone working on their garage electrical could shock the you know what out of themselves touching that white wire. Dangerous way to do it IMO.
Click to expand...

Yep. I hate it when I see that:mad2:. (no fault of the homeowner)

The correct thing to do, is tape that white wire at both ends to indentify it as a current carrying conductor!

After getting zapped a few times, you learn to treat all wires as potentially hot:yes:.
 
Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.

jhausch said:
I do it by the number of screws and location (s), ground screws excluded...however, i guess a 2pst could be confused for a 4 way...
Click to expand...

Yeah that got a few guys on the test:D.

It's really easy. Just look at the toggle itself. If it has ON/OFF written on it, it has to be double-pole switch (or single pole but that would only have two screws, not four).

3-way and 4-way switches have nothing written on the toggle, because they're always ON and OFF. No matter what position they're in, they always make one circuit while breaking another.
 
Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.

My MILs house had a hallway with one light in the middle, one switch in the middle, and switches at each end. 3 switches for one light. To turn on the light, you had to get the switches in just the right combination. I asked my wife how long that had been going on - "Since my dad did something with the wiring when I was a kid." I think it took me most of a weekend to get that sorted out.

3-ways are tricky until you get them figured out.
 
Re: Garage Elecrtical Quandry.

I might have missed it, but where was the other switch hidden? Is it in any useful place?
 
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