Game changer..what plane now?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by MotoFlier, Nov 17, 2015.

  1. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Both the Aztec and 310 are going to cost you the same per hour to operate, so the 310 will save you about 12% operating cost over the span of your mission, plus a 310 is way cooler than an Aztec.:lol:;) Seriously, my 310 was the only plane I've been in that got the FBO hottie out on the ramp to tell me I had a sexy plane.:D Personally I also prefer the IO-470 Continental to the Lycoming for multiple small preferences such as parts costs and general smoothness, but more importantly I like the Continental Fuel Injection better than the Bendix. Not only is hot starting a Continental a simple affair, it has an electric high boost pump setting that will keep the engine delivering power if the engine driven pump fails. The only thing you have to always remember is to not switch to your aux tanks until you have burned an hour out of your mains. Outside of that, the 310 has no nasty system surprises, and it runs a mechanical/electricical landing gear system rather than a hydraulic which I prefer. The key thing to inspect on the gear is the actuator torque tubes in the main gear wells. They develop a radial crack by the crank tabs, and when the crack finally splits, the gear doesn't lock down. There was a point where a good few of the twin Cessna fleet were grounded over this and the lack of replacement parts supply from Cessna, but it's my understanding that the issue has been rectified, and a higher quality part is available.
     
  2. Ted

    Ted The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted

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    MTBF on the hydraulic power pack in an Aztec is something north of 10,000 hours. 310s, not so lucky. The hydraulics on the Aztec are about the most reliable aircraft system I've ever known.

    The Aztec is cheaper than the 310 (I've done both, I know), and $/mile is about the same.

    Engine wise, I prefer the parallel valve 540s.
     
  3. ktup-flyer

    ktup-flyer En-Route

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    Barons are cool. You get those big rear doors too.
     

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  4. ktup-flyer

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  5. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Plus there are more deiced Aztecs, and there is also a pilot side door and float kit available.... As far as hydraulics go though, power packs are the expensive issue, but not the only.
     
  6. TEFLONSEAN

    TEFLONSEAN Line Up and Wait

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  7. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    And you will look the coolest in a Duke!
     
  8. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    I would definitely look good in a Duke.
     
  9. ktup-flyer

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    Dukes look droopy to me. Sad or something :lol: Maybe if it has the turbine conversion :yes:
     
  10. ktup-flyer

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    He needs a Velocity V Twin.
     
  11. MotoFlier

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    I like that and put it on the pro list but from my research the baron seems to be very expensive maintenance and AD wise when compared with the Aztec and 310.
     
  12. MotoFlier

    MotoFlier Line Up and Wait

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    Hilarious haha:lol::lol:
     
  13. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Maybe. When you are buying 40 year old planes that are this similar in weight and horsepower, condition of the individual plane plays a larger roll in cost of ownership than which model you choose. When looking at twins, the hierarchy of value still holds. All airframe repairs are completely negative, you will not recoup one dime of any airframe work done, plus it is expensive and very time consuming leaving your plane out of commission for up to years. Even when perfectly restored, having that work in the log detracts from the plane's market value. What I look for first and foremost is an immaculate airframe. The best indicator I have found of that is planes that have been hangared all their life.

    Next value center is avionics, avionics have a horrible monetary return on investment, but pay off in functionality. If you find several excellent condition airframes, choose through them for best avionics package because likely you'll pay 10¢-25¢ on the $1.00 for it already in the plane than installing it.

    After this I look at the engine & prop value. Props with no ADs on them have a $5000 a piece value over older props. If you want to replace them you're looking at $18-$21k for a pair. The greatest value on engines comes buying them around 75% TBO. The resale value on engine time is directly prorated from hour one to 75%TBO, where the value of the engine remains until the core value components get destroyed. So on an Aztec with 2000hr TBO, any hours you fly past 1500 are 'free' with regards to engine cost since they are fully depreciated.

    The Baron may have a bunch of AD's, but they don't really amount to much. That is not why I would not choose one for you, cabin size is.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2015
  14. ktup-flyer

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    Yea, it's a Beech. I'd imagine it's loud as hell, but is the 337 any good?
     
  15. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I own a B55 and if anything the annual maintenance is less than what some folks have told me they are paying for their 310s. There is a lot of variation depending on location, shop rate, how nice the airplane was when you bought it...etc, but a baby Baron is definitely not more expensive to operate or maintain.

    Can't say for certain, but I don't see how a 58 would cost appreciably more to maintain unless you are talking pressurized Baron. Engine overhauls are going to be more and fuel burn more, but that's about it the rest should be on par with the others.

    The advantage of the B58 is that it is faster than an Aztec or 310. It is the easiest to fly. And it has the back doors and club seating (but you give up baggage space for that).

    That said, for a family of 5, I wouldn't go B58 unless you really want the back doors and club seating. I think the Aztec/310 are the best fit for you.
     
  16. MotoFlier

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    whatever I was reading said the 58 needs the landing gear rebuilt every 400hrs and something about the undercarriage every 2000, also a bolt for the wings has to be magnafluxed every so many hours.
     
  17. MotoFlier

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    It seems like the best values i'm seeing so far are good airframe, mid time engines, and crap panels. I have a local shop that said they can install a basic IFR Aspen for around 15 so i'm just taking that into consideration with price.
    The planes I'm seeing with nice panels are way over priced regardless of engine time or paint/interior condition.
     
  18. Henning

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    All in all, the 470s in a 55 are better and cheaper to operate and maintain than 520s or 550s in a 58. The 55 has nicer flying characteristics in my opinion as well. The Aztec may look tougher, but I'll put my money on a 55 airframe taking more punishment on rough strips than an Aztec. If you ever have to drill apart that area of the wing, you realize how strong that assembly is. I drilled out a bunch of gear stuff out of a salvage wing I had bought to get the leading section off for a corrosion repair to sell another guy who was rebuilding a wing and it took me forever. In Aus the Barons and Bonanzas are used as bush planes in the outback. The Aztec has a bigger cabin and luggage areas for a family of five though, and in the end, that is where even the 58 Baron is going to fall short for him. Once you need that fifth seat, you really limit the utility of the Beech models as a family plane, especially with toddler loads. Unless of course you want a twin that burns cheap MoGas and get a Beech 18.:D
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2015
  19. ktup-flyer

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  20. Henning

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    Yeah, what you find is what you find, you can only sort through what is available. What will he do a basic G-500 for? With a 500 and a 420w and a Flight Stream 210 with an iPad to program the radio, you end up with a very competent package with a lot of screen real estate. I flew with both the Aspen and Garmin several times including IPCs before I bought, and by the time I figured in the cost of an MFD with the Aspen PFD, the difference in cost was not that great compared the much nicer view ability. I understand that Aspen has since changed their font, but that just makes it more densely cluttered. I'd did two IPCs in the same Commanche one with an Aspen and one with a Garmin. He kept the Aspen 3 weeks and traded for dual G-600s. It's really a personal thing, the Aspen is a good instrument and has all the features, and many people are very happy with them.

    I really wish Garmin would come out with a certified version of the of the G-3x, that s a sweet unit, and at least as experimental, it's at a reasonable price point.

    Oh, I saw a strange ad the other day for G-1000s that made it sound like a retrofit. Does anyone know anything about that? To my knowledge, the G-1000 has only been available to OEM installers.:dunno:
     
  21. MotoFlier

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  22. Henning

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  23. MotoFlier

    MotoFlier Line Up and Wait

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  24. Henning

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    You can get them with tricycle gear, it's called the Volpar conversion, and in the last models it was available that way from the factory. There is also one other gorgeous Tropic-something conversion out there with tri gear and a single tall swept tail in the middle and painted this nice turquoise on white with black stripes in a 50s style swoop stripe livery and with the 985s out on the wing just looks awesome.

    Unless you need to load a lot of heavy things like motorcycles, I would get the tricycle. The BE-18 is a marvelous flying airplane, a joy to handle and land even as a taildragger (typically you do wheel landings in an 18) and she is a tame yet responsive plane with no bad habits, then you unlock the tailwheel to taxi and it's like trying to herd 2 drunk chicks down the sidewalk.:lol: The tailwheel doesn't steer, it free casters, or it locks. You could label the tailwheel lock positions Jekyll and Hyde.
     
  25. Henning

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    Last edited: Nov 19, 2015
  26. Ted

    Ted The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted

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    340s aren't much harder to fly than 310s. But they cost a good sum more per hour to operate.

    A 58 Baron isn't more than a few knots faster than a 310 with 520s. The real question is 520s or 470s.
     
  27. MotoFlier

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    The search is over :D

    http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail/aircraft/Multi+Engine+Piston/1956/Beechcraft/H18/2161808.html
     
  28. MotoFlier

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    Does the Aztec or 310 have any weird cg or w/b issues? My CFI was telling me about a plane I think it was a single BO that he would fly and you had to keep at least 1/2 tanks of fuel with passengers or the W/B would go out and you would crash.

    I have no interest in anything larger than these i'm freaking out as it is lol
     
  29. ktup-flyer

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    Yes, lol. Lots of relatively nice ones for ~$200k. Probably not practical, though.



    Off topic--Did you ever race at 555mx/triple nickel in Grand Rivers when it was open?
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2015
  30. Henning

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  31. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Sure, it's not difficult to fly, in fact it flies pretty much like a 310 and used the same numbers for approach and landing, all the twin Cessnas are like that which is why the insurance likes to see 310 time when you get in any of the cabin class ones. However they cost about twice as much overall over a 470 powered 310.
     
  32. ktup-flyer

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  33. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Shame it's missing the DeIce gear. In KY having a twin for a family plane without DeIce gear doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Either you give up a lot f utility or a lot of safety, neither makes sense in an expensive family transportation purchase and commitment.

    The best way to assure you get your money's worth out of owning a plane is to fly it every opportunity that presents itself.
     
  34. MotoFlier

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    No, I have only been in KY a couple years I spent the most time in PA. Only tracks around here I have been to are Dunns, Echo valley, and Danial Boone. I had a pretty big get off a couple years ago that kinda slowed me down, injuries take longer to heal when you pass 30 lol. Now I ride mostly for fun, every now and than I feel froggie and go big :yes:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2015
  35. MotoFlier

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    That's a real nice one:yes: Iflytwins sold me on the full de-ice option I won't get a twin without it.
     
  36. Ted

    Ted The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted

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    Aztec = if it fits, it ships :D

    Seriously, not much you can do to throw that plane out of W&B, other than fill it with cement. And even then, it'd fly just fine.

    The 310 can get aft CG if you end up with a heavy load and low fuel. However with your family load, it shouldn't be an issue. Your loading would be similar to mine, and I have no problems.

    To be clear, I wouldn't recommend a 340 or bigger for a plane for you. You should cut your teeth on one of the simpler and more forgiving planes. Also, 340s on up are much easier to get out of W&B envelope, and are unhappy if you do so.
     
  37. docmirror

    docmirror Touchdown! Greaser!

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  38. Henning

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    The R adds nose baggage which is nice, but it also has the front gear drive alternators on the 520 which I don't like. A bad alternator bearing can cost you an engine, and it's happened.

    Every bloody plane has trade offs, pick the ones you want to live with and get the plane that serves you best. They all come with basically the same equipment packages and performance margins on a single engine for a given horsepower, and as long as you have 260 a side or better, you're doing ok, not great at gross, but if you keep your head out of your ass you're gonna land on a runway. The further below gross you can keep it, the safer you are on take off. That's why with a twin I don't much tanker around fuel. I take what I need and reserves and leave the rest on the ground. That is really the primary difference in day to day flight planning between singles and twins, figuring every fuel load rather than just topping up every time. If you are only going on a 1.5 hr trip then carrying 6 hours worth of fuel with the plane at or near gross doesn't make sense anymore. You carry 3 hrs of fuel and leave 540lbs on the ground and clear that horsepower requirement.
     
  39. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    My insurance broker wouldn't let me look at nose-gear BE-18s. He said something about 'friends don't let friends...':D
     
  40. Ted

    Ted The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted

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    I do agree with Henning about the gear driven alternators. Those have lots of expensive problems, I'm glad to have belt driven alternators in back.

    Another negative for Continentals is starter adapters vs the "automotive style" starters used on Lycomings.