GA and concealed carry laws

[redcloud]

Got a Question!

Before you answer:

I am of a socially centrist, fiscally conservative political bent.
I am not a gun nut, but enjoy the shooting sports and nearly all types of hunting.
I earned the right to have a "concealed carry permit" in my home state of Ohio and personally feel it is a constitutional right to bear arms responsibly.
I love my Country and support its Government enthusiastically.

Having said that: Are there any laws affecting or any proscriptions against carrying a personal protection firearm in one's aircraft other than the subtle differences between each states concealed carry laws?

Sincerely submitted,

Scott

 

[mgkdrgn]

"subtle differences between each states concealed carry laws?"

Subtle differences?

I would wager that as long as you remain in the air, 'taint nobody gonna come up and search you. However, once your wheels squalk on the pavement it's gonna be a completely different ballgame. You'll be governed by what ever laws are in place where ever you happen to be.

Got a Question!

Before you answer:

I am of a socially centrist, fiscally conservative political bent.
I am not a gun nut, but enjoy the shooting sports and nearly all types of hunting.
I earned the right to have a "concealed carry permit" in my home state of Ohio and personally feel it is a constitutional right to bear arms responsibly.
I love my Country and support its Government enthusiastically.

Having said that: Are there any laws affecting or any proscriptions against carrying a personal protection firearm in one's aircraft other than the subtle differences between each states concealed carry laws?

Sincerely submitted,

Scott

 

[Dave Siciliano]

There is an internet site that tries to let you know what states allow what: something like conealedcarry.com See if you can do a search and find it. It seems, you are O.K. in most places if it's locked in a box out of reach and ammunition is kept locked up separately. From there, it goes all over the board from being able to carry to only being able to go to a range.

Dave

 

[poadeleted20]

Are there any laws affecting or any proscriptions against carrying a personal protection firearm in one's aircraft other than the subtle differences between each states concealed carry laws?

No. But keep in mind that what may be legal in the state from which you departed and in the state in which you intended to land may send you to jail in the state between them when circumstances required you to land in that third state, especially if it's an air carrier airport.

Since I cannot conceive of anyone other than a law enforcement officer acting as a prisoner transfer custodian needing a concealed weapon in flight, I most strongly recommend securing it unloaded in a locked container in the baggage compartment before departure, and not putting it back in your belt until you land where you know it's legal. Anything else could get you in seriously deep trouble, and mixing firearms violations with airplanes is one way to get on TSA's bad pilots list (14 CFR 1544.229 paragraphs (d)(7) and (d)(20)).

 

[fgcason]

There is an internet site that tries to let you know what states allow what: something like conealedcarry.com See if you can do a search and find it.

www.packing.org

 

[Richard]

Got a Question!

Before you answer:

I am of a socially centrist, fiscally conservative political bent.
I am not a gun nut, but enjoy the shooting sports and nearly all types of hunting.
I earned the right to have a "concealed carry permit" in my home state of Ohio and personally feel it is a constitutional right to bear arms responsibly.
I love my Country and support its Government enthusiastically.

Having said that: Are there any laws affecting or any proscriptions against carrying a personal protection firearm in one's aircraft other than the subtle differences between each states concealed carry laws?

Sincerely submitted,

Scott

Scott, this is off subject to your request but I have spent some time thinking about the 'disclaimer' which prefaces your question. My response to that is it is your right as an American citizen to carry. Don't you dare let others, who may choose not to carry for themselves, usurp your right. IOW, that disclaimer is not required and anyone who doesn't like it, too bad.

 

[Paul Allen]

Scott,
Check out this site http://www.ohioccw.org. They sell a book with the info your looking for. It has the laws for every state. Make sure you stay out of any commercial passenger airport, I'm sure you already know that. Hopefully we will see the Ohio law cleaned up early next year.

 

[redcloud]

Thanx for the replies.

As for the preemptive disclaimer, Richard is right, I just thought it might be helpful in order to dissuade unhelpful and politically zealous persons from a reactive post. It is surely a shame that I felt compelled to do it, but if one is a little conservative one has to measure their words while a liberal person can say nearly anything hurtful or not.

Also, since I don't know any of you personally yet, I thought it would help you understand more about me personally.

Scott

 

[Maverick]

Thanx for the replies.

As for the preemptive disclaimer, Richard is right, I just thought it might be helpful in order to dissuade unhelpful and politically zealous persons from a reactive post. It is surely a shame that I felt compelled to do it, but if one is a little conservative one has to measure their words while a liberal person can say nearly anything hurtful or not.

Also, since I don't know any of you personally yet, I thought it would help you understand more about me personally.

Scott

In regard to your disclaimer, I'll say that I am not a gun nut either. I also feel that in a perfect world there would be no guns. But this is far from a perfect world and, since I live in a shall issue state, I too have a CCW permit.

I have also thought about your question, not just now but also in the past. The laws vary from state to state and many states have reciprocity agreements. But there are also a number that do not and since this seems to be rather fluid it's always recommended that you check the laws in each state you'll visit just prior to going. Web sites are a good tool but not the definitive answer, it's always best to check with officials of the state you'll be visiting.

Jeannie

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Scott:

I have a concealed carry permit in Texas; so, you're not the only one to consider this issue. Problem is, state laws vary so much you really don't have the right to a concealed weapon in many states, and may not know what rights you do have.

As a matter of fact, the latest issue of AOPA points out that in California and New York it's illegal to to possess two sticks of wood attached by a rope!! Therefore, if you land in California, you might need to deny any ownership of the chocks under your wheels!! (AOPA page 57; Nov. 2005 which cites CA Para. 12020)

Dave

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Can't one just unconceal the weapon if in doubt about a particular state law ?

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Dave:

The safe harbor seems to be to have the gun locked in a box with the ammo in a separate place. That's much different than being able to carry concealed.

Yes, you could unconceal, but it would be too late if you were in someplace and got checked. Wouldn't be too inconspicuous to be carrying around a locked box and separate ammo everyplace you went in case you might be checked.

 

[mgkdrgn]

Mebbe ... but there ARE places where even posession is illegal. And others only if registered ... with them.

Can't one just unconceal the weapon if in doubt about a particular state law ?

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Can't one just unconceal the weapon if in doubt about a particular state law ?

Last time I cared (thankfully 14 years ago) California law held (and probably still does) that a weapon (loaded or not) within a passenger vehicle (within reach of the driver or not) and not in a locked container (the glove box or center console do not qualify) is a concealed weapon.

I'm sure other people's republic states will have similar laws.

 

[Anthony]

Dave:

The safe harbor seems to be to have the gun locked in a box with the ammo in a separate place. That's much different than being able to carry concealed.

Yes, you could unconceal, but it would be too late if you were in someplace and got checked. Wouldn't be too inconspicuous to be carrying around a locked box and separate ammo everyplace you went in case you might be checked.

In general this is true. However, in jurisdictions like NYC and Washington, D.C. it is illegal to posses a firearm even locked and seperated from ammo. I stay out of D.C. and NYC unless I'm travelling on business, which means airlines, so no CCW anyway.

The Packing.Org site Frank posted is and excellent place to start.

Oh, almost forgot. I have a CCW permit for Colorado. I live in Colorado and recently learned, even with a CCW permit, I can not carry a knife concealed with a blade over 3.5 inches in length. A knife with a blade over 3.5 inches is illegal to carry concealed in CO. That means IF I carry a survival kit to my plane in which a knife with a 5 inch blade sits concealed, I am breaking the law. Yet, I can have a pistol concealed on my person and because of my CCW am perfectly legal.

Laws don't have to make sense and often don't and vary greatly from state to state. Be careful, your gun may be fine, but your pen knife could get you arrested.

 

[Richard]

Dave:

The safe harbor seems to be to have the gun locked in a box with the ammo in a separate place. That's much different than being able to carry concealed.

Yes, you could unconceal, but it would be too late if you were in someplace and got checked. Wouldn't be too inconspicuous to be carrying around a locked box and separate ammo everyplace you went in case you might be checked.

But even with the gun in a locked box if you were carrying the gun AND the ammo on your person (even in a separate locked box) it would constitute a loaded firearm in some states.

 

[fgcason]

But even with the gun in a locked box if you were carrying the gun AND the ammo on your person (even in a separate locked box) it would constitute a loaded firearm in some states.

Huh?
You're not making any sense at all with that statement. Mind clarifying that a bit? I do not understand at all.
How does no bullet in gun with gun and bullet locked up separately in different boxes = bullet in gun?

 

[wesleyj]

actually you will find that most states, have full reciprocity with ohio., making your permit to carry as valid in other states as it is at home.


i have had a hangun permit for over 40 years, have been asked for it 4 times, never had a problem anywhere.

 

[Richard]

Huh?
You're not making any sense at all with that statement. Mind clarifying that a bit? I do not understand at all.
How does no bullet in gun with gun and bullet locked up separately in different boxes = bullet in gun?

Penal Code 12001

• (j) For purposes of Section 12023, a firearm shall be deemed to be "loaded" whenever both the firearm and the unexpended ammunition capable of being discharged from the firearm are in the immediate possession of the same person.

Penal Code 12023

• (a)Every person who carries a loaded firearm with the intent to commit a felony is guilty of armed criminal action.
• (b) Armed criminal action is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or in the state prison.

Frank, I withdraw my previous comment, I did not see the "intent to commit".

 

[fgcason]

I withdraw my previous comment, I did not see the "intent to commit".

Ok. Thanks. That makes at least a little more sense to me...sort of anyway. For a moment I thought you were effectively saying that every single person that ever touched a gun while holding a bullet was suddenly a felon per the law and most of the country was probably destined for the slammer.

Intent to commit or not, that definition is stretching loaded way beyond sensible limits. Excluding weapons safety procedures, if it's not in the gun, it's not loaded, period. IMNSHO, there are too many conflicting rules simultaneously in effect that mislead and set a trap for honest people just because they're being honest. That's all another thread for another day though.

 

[Richard]

Ok. Thanks. That makes at least a little more sense to me...sort of anyway. For a moment I thought you were effectively saying that every single person that ever touched a gun while holding a bullet was suddenly a felon per the law and most of the country was probably destined for the slammer.

Intent to commit or not, that definition is stretching loaded way beyond sensible limits. Excluding weapons safety procedures, if it's not in the gun, it's not loaded, period. IMNSHO, there are too many conflicting rules simultaneously in effect that mislead and set a trap for honest people just because they're being honest. That's all another thread for another day though.

You got that right! I clicked on my home state on the link and it took several readings before I was able to answer my question if it was permissable that I can even own a firearm. I know I can (and do) own but the language the laws are written in just makes me do a double or even triple take. I agree, that definition of 'loaded' is beyond sensical.

And I especially find it challenging to understand the reasoning behind why it's easier to carry a firearm than a knife with a 3.5" blade. It's almost as if the law was written with a specific person or incident in mind.

 

[Maverick]

Can't one just unconceal the weapon if in doubt about a particular state law ?

That doesn't work either. I've been told that carrying the weapon in plain sight can be construed as brandishing and that can land someone in jail. During the required CCW training we were told that, in Michigan, the permit gives us authorization to carry a concealed pistol period and that it MUST be concealed. Not an unconcealed weapon, not a knife and not any other form of weapon. In fact the permit is titled "Michigan Concealed Pistol License" and not a concealed weapons permit. The funny part is that a licensee can carry as many pistols as they want as long as they are all concealed. Another benefit is that a person with a concealed pistol license can buy a handgun without first obtaining a purchase permit from their local police department. They are still required to register the weapon with their police department before they can carry it.

In addition the Michigan law outlines a number of places that are considered pistol free zones. Some refer to those as criminal empowerment zones. In addition to those, businesses can also post a ban on concealed weapons if they so choose and it effectively becomes another pistol free zone under the law.

Michigan law also requires a person, when stopped by a law enforcement officer, to immediately inform the officer that they have a carry permit and that they have a pistol if they are carrying. Failure to do so will result in revocation of the permit as well and fines and jail time. This is not a bad thing because many people feel that this tells the officer right up front that this person is an upstanding citizen due to the background check that is done before the license to carry is granted.

Even with reciprocity a person must follow the law of the state they are in and not just the state that issued their permit. I think extreme care should be taken to know and understand the laws in any state a person is planning to visit before deciding to carry in that state.

Jeannie

 

[Missa]

... But this is far from a perfect world and, since I live in a shall issue state, I too have a CCW permit...

Jeannie

Wow, I would have never guess it... you have more facets then a princess cut diamond!

Missa

 

[Anthony]

That doesn't work either. I've been told that carrying the weapon in plain sight can be construed as brandishing and that can land someone in jail. During the required CCW training we were told that, in Michigan, the permit gives us authorization to carry a concealed pistol period and that it MUST be concealed. Not an unconcealed weapon, not a knife and not any other form of weapon.

Well, here in Colorado and PA for that matter (I have CCW's for both states), "Open Carry" is legal. If I want to walk around with a holstered weapon in plain sight of everyone I can. That is not brandishing. If I am concealing a pistol under my jacket, then open my jacket showing it to someone, that is considered brandishing and is illegal.

Now is Open Carry smart or practical? NO. It makes people nervous and advertises to potential bad guys that you are armed. If there is an incident, guess who they are going to take out first? If they know you have a gun, you are a target.

Wow, I would have never guess it... you have more facets then a princess cut diamond!

Are you next Missa? CCW I mean.

Serioulsy, if I were a woman, I would be armed 24/7.

 

[Maverick]

Wow, I would have never guess it... you have more facets then a princess cut diamond!

Missa

Well, since I don't engage in risky behavior I seldom feel a need to carry. There are times though when I'm traveling the roads alone and at night that I feel a bit safer having a means of protecting myself.

 

[Missa]

Are you next Missa? CCW I mean.

Serioulsy, if I were a woman, I would be armed 24/7.

I've never been a good enough shot with a pistol. Give me a rifle now and I can hit the mark... but it's hard to get a rifle for a CCW.

I don't travel in bad areas that often anyway.

I'm armed enough for when it would count most. Nothing material is worth lossing life or limb for and in a gun battle the winner is never clear. If someone was threatning me physically, sooner or later he would have to let his gaurd down, and then he would wish he never tried it with me. I don't look like much but I can kick a$$ when needed.

Missa

 

[poadeleted20]

Just to make sure we're all on the same page, may I remind folks of the original question:

Are there any laws affecting or any proscriptions against carrying a personal protection firearm in one's aircraft?

To which my answer...

No. But ... I most strongly recommend securing it unloaded in a locked container in the baggage compartment...

...remains the same.

 

[Anthony]

I don't look like much but I can kick a$$ when needed.

I don't look like much either, but I can run away really well.

 

[Dakota Duce]

Got a Question!

Are there any laws affecting or any proscriptions against carrying a personal protection firearm in one's aircraft other than the subtle differences between each states concealed carry laws?

Scott

I am unable to answer the question of having a firearm in your aircraft, but.. might I give you one bit of advice.

DO NOT.. I repeat, DO NOT have ANY type of handgun on your person, or in your aircraft while in New York State, unless you have a New York State "License to Carry Pistol"!

I don't care what any other state law says, New York State is very clear. If you do NOT have a NYS "License", you legally can NOT even possess a handgun. The bottom line is this..

NO License.. NO Handgun.

End of story!

Dakota Duce

"May All Your Flights Be Of Good Weather!"

 

[Paul Allen]

I am unable to answer the question of having a firearm in your aircraft, but.. might I give you one bit of advice.

DO NOT.. I repeat, DO NOT have ANY type of handgun on your person, or in your aircraft while in New York State, unless you have a New York State "License to Carry Pistol"!

I don't care what any other state law says, New York State is very clear. If you do NOT have a NYS "License", you legally can NOT even possess a handgun. The bottom line is this..

NO License.. NO Handgun.

End of story!

Dakota Duce

"May All Your Flights Be Of Good Weather!"

Another good reason not to live in New York.

 

[ausrere]

I don't care what any other state law says, New York State is very clear. If you do NOT have a NYS "License", you legally can NOT even possess a handgun. The bottom line is this..

NO License.. NO Handgun.

End of story!

Dakota Duce

Well... unless you are a police officer. At least now, wasn't always the case. I've yet to carry outside my state though.

 

[etsisk]

Well... unless you are a police officer. At least now, wasn't always the case. I've yet to carry outside my state though.

I'm not sure that NYC won't cause you trouble, even though you are LEO. When I was still a cop one of my Police Law Institute instructors was ex-NYC prosecutor and he was pretty firm about how seriously they take gun possession up there! Now, with the new fed'l law, who knows?

Be safe . . .

 

[poadeleted20]

Well... unless you are a police officer.

A NY-based or federal LEO -- NY law doesn't take kindly to gun-toting strangers, even those with badges.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

I'm not sure that NYC won't cause you trouble, even though you are LEO. When I was still a cop one of my Police Law Institute instructors was ex-NYC prosecutor and he was pretty firm about how seriously they take gun possession up there! Now, with the new fed'l law, who knows?

Be safe . . .

I missed it.
What is this new federal law ?

 

[Bill]

A NY-based or federal LEO -- NY law doesn't take kindly to gun-toting strangers, even those with badges.

NY doesn't take kindly to much at all. Glad I got out of that hell hole of a state.

 

[Anthony]

NY doesn't take kindly to much at all. Glad I got out of that hell hole of a state.

Neither does California, Mass, New Jersey and all the other northeastern states other than PA or NH. When I used to fly in that theater of operation, I NEVER carried a firearm in the plane.

 

[ausrere]

I missed it.
What is this new federal law ?

Last year the new Federal Law Enforcement Safety act was passed which allows LEO's from any state to carry in any state:

http://www.leaa.org/218/218text.html
http://www.leaa.org/218/218release0722.html

There are some restrictions, but it covers active and retired law enforcement officers.

 

[mgkdrgn]

Doesn't have to make sense ... just has to be the law.

Huh?
You're not making any sense at all with that statement. Mind clarifying that a bit? I do not understand at all.
How does no bullet in gun with gun and bullet locked up separately in different boxes = bullet in gun?

 

[Paul Allen]

NY doesn't take kindly to much at all. Glad I got out of that hell hole of a state.

You got that right.

 

[CowboyPilot]

A NY-based or federal LEO -- NY law doesn't take kindly to gun-toting strangers, even those with badges.

Neither does Massachusetts.

My DEA partner and I both got jacked up at Logan Int by some overzealous Masshole state troopers even though we A, had federal badges that were bigger and carried more clout than their state badges, B, we had our pink papers acknowledging that we were flying armed on the airline we arrived with, and C, we had orders from DOJ to be in Massachusetts to serve arrest warrants on several unscrupulous, federal felony-prone upstanding Massachusetts citizens (No, none of them were named Kennedy).

The whole "issue" with the Masshole state cops was that we didn't "call and notify them that we were going to be arriving in their state armed." Justice Department went ape you-know-what over that.

I kid you not. That was the crux of their problem. That we--two undercover feds--didn't call them and notify them that we were coming to their state.

I never liked Massachusetts before I went there and have despised it ever since. When we fly to New Hampshire to see some in-laws, I make it a point to never land in Massachusetts (be danged if I'm gonna spend one red cent in that craphole of a state) and even at my advanced age, to act juveline and flip them the finger from whatever altitude we're at.

We check out the reciprocity laws when we travel, but even so, I always fly armed because being ex-LEO, I never know if/when I may run into someone I arrested/put in prison or their family/friends. The world is not becoming a nicer, friendlier place to live.

Separating gun from ammunition is like taking the gas out of my car and leaving it in five-gallon cans--only pouring it in the car when I'm ready or need to drive.

If you fly/land at an "international" airport, you can be subject to random search procedures at will--especially in today's age with this idiotic "Patriot Act" in place. Another reason we rarely, rarely fly into big, controlled fields. Better than 95% of our XC flights are to uncontrolled fields.

Second thing is do not give any airport authority or law enforcement personnel any reason whatsoever to have probable cause to search your airplane--even in today's age of drug running and terrorism. If they insist, YOU insist on a search warrant, and while they're getting it, you start making calls. First to a lawyer--if you don't have one, start calling the ACLU types (I'm not too keen on ACLU either, but I'm even less keen on having my Second, Fourth and Fifth Amendments bent over a barrel. Second call is to the local TV station and tell them you're getting jacked up by the police for no reason and if they want a hellva story, come on out to the airport.

Cops hate video cameras--hate them even more when there's a reporter on the other side of them.

Bottom line: Be smart, know your rights, know where you're at, where you're going, and be as inconspicuous as humanly possible. Sad state of affairs that this is how it has to be, but this is how it is this day and age.

-JD