FSS confusion

Richard

Richard

Final Approach
Joined
Feb 27, 2005
Messages
9,076
Location
West Coast Resistance
Display Name
Display name:
Ack...city life
The other day the briefer asked if I was familiar with the "Security NOTAM" for my destination aprt (Class D). I said I wasn't so he proceeded to tell me the app freqs to coordinate my arrival. I repeated this would be a VFR flight. He said makes no difference, that ALL arrivals should follow contact arrival procedures, just like IFR arrivals. The briefer had no further information. I also repeated the 4 letter aprt identifier and then said the full name of the aprt. He said he had the correct aprt.

Today I was at the FSDO for other stuff and since most of the staff are pilots I decided I should ask if they knew anything about the "Security NOTAM". They all said they had no knowledge of such a NOTAM.

I had to go to the aprt so I visited the aprt ops manager. He said the same thing; no knowledge of the NOTAM. He put me in touch with the tower so I asked the twr if they knew of any "Security NOTAM" and then I asked what their VFR arrival procedures are.

The twr said he didn't know of any such NOTAM and he said his VFR arrival procedures were just like any other Class D aprt. He also said that his best source for NOTAM information is via e-mail from AOPA. That is, quite often he won't know of any NOTAM until the AOPA e-mail arrives every Friday morning.

The twr guy is also a pilot and he said he has recieved several inquiries like mine but now is worried that he has confused pilots in the area. He told me Lockheed has a website for pilots to provide feedback on use of the system but he didn't know it's address. I'll have to search it.

Thank you, FSS.
 
What airport was this Richard? Is there Military operations on the field or something?
The "security Notam" to me is the same one we all get every time we call FSS.
 
according to FSS when i talked to them on friday, the "security NOTAM" (stay away from power plants, dams, refineries) was being withdrawn today. this was Fort Dodge, IA.
 
tonycondon said:
according to FSS when i talked to them on friday, the "security NOTAM" (stay away from power plants, dams, refineries) was being withdrawn today. this was Fort Dodge, IA.
Click to expand...

that would stink. my number 1 thing to have fun with the briefers is when they ask me if I have it. I usually respond no as it is a meaningless NOTAM. They express puzzlement at that and I then ask them if they know where the sporting events are that I should stay away from? Their response is "No" of course. So I ask how am I supposed to know about them. They then tell me something dumb like I should get the newspaper and look up the games. Where would I get a local paper that would state that? So then I aks them excatly where the stadiums are and they do not know either. So it is a lot of fun and I get it on tape that they could not tell but I asked. Just in case you know ;);)
 
Yabut, just because the briefer does not know doesn't mean you, pilot, should not know. It's your ticket they're after.
 
markb5900 said:
What airport was this Richard? Is there Military operations on the field or something?
The "security Notam" to me is the same one we all get every time we call FSS.
Click to expand...
KDVT. Briefer wants me to contact Luke AFB even if I'm coming in from the NE. There are no power plants or sports stadiums around here except way to the west of my route. But to overfly those I better be already talking to app.
 
Richard said:
Yabut, just because the briefer does not know doesn't mean you, pilot, should not know. It's your ticket they're after.
Click to expand...

I know, but the reality is how do you find where some of these things are? You ask FSS, they don't know, then you look at the charts and they are not shown, etc. It sets up the example that you made the best effort. So if you are busted it will help with the defense. Of course you probably will not ever get a violation as no one is aware of when some of these blanket TFR are in affect nor where they are.
 
Richard. Could it be that the MOAs were hot and they wanted all aircraft to be talking with Luke? That area is/can be busy with millitary training.
 
Michael said:
Richard. Could it be that the MOAs were hot and they wanted all aircraft to be talking with Luke? That area is/can be busy with millitary training.
Click to expand...
That's a good point. But my route is no where near the MOAs. Even so, I would think the briefer would be able to supply that information when I was pressing him for the rest of the story.

Maybe I should contact the controlling or using agency.
 
smigaldi said:
I know, but the reality is how do you find where some of these things are? .
Click to expand...

Either fly greater than 3000 agl or use those MK2 eyeballs. any open stadium big enough to be capable of holding 30,000 or more should be visible from a adequate distance.

this place might help
http://airspace.nifc.gov/mapping/nifc/index.cfm
 
Last edited:
FSS is going through a digestion period. OTOH, they are tasked with asking if you are familiar with the general security NOTAM; OTOH, each FSS seems to be going about it in a different manner. For instance, at Leesburg when last out there, they asked if you were familiar with Information Alpha. Of course, you had to listen to all the banal cr*p before you knew what Alpha was. At Fort Worth last week it was information Bravo, once again, you had to listen to almost a minute long recording to figure out it was the same tripe. At another place, up in Ada, O.K. it was the national security notam. So, one cannot go from one place to another and know the same information is applicable. The briefers don't like it any more than us. One guy up in Greenbay had me on the phone there for 15 minutes telling me how dumb all this is--I was IFR and filing in Class A airspace.

Hopefully, it will get straightened out by being standardized in some manner; otherwise, it's just garbage in garbage out.

Best,

Dave
 
cherokeeflyboy said:
Either fly greater than 3000 agl or use those MK2 eyeballs. any open stadium big enough to be capable of holding 30,000 or more should be visible from a adequate distance.

this place might help
http://airspace.nifc.gov/mapping/nifc/index.cfm
Click to expand...

Yeah....I beg to differ. We have a Division 1 NCAA Open Football Stadium here in Albuquerque. Try to see it from the air. It ain't happening. I've lived here most of my life and when flying over, I usually don't see it until I'm over it....

Not good.
 
roger nick, ames also has a football stadium that will seat 50000. It is surrounded by other athletic complexes and university buildings. while i know exactly where it is at, just off the departure of one of our runways, i can easily see how a person unfamiliar would not see it until too late.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
FSS is going through a digestion period. OTOH, they are tasked with asking if you are familiar with the general security NOTAM; OTOH, each FSS seems to be going about it in a different manner. For instance, at Leesburg when last out there, they asked if you were familiar with Information Alpha. Of course, you had to listen to all the banal cr*p before you knew what Alpha was. At Fort Worth last week it was information Bravo, once again, you had to listen to almost a minute long recording to figure out it was the same tripe. At another place, up in Ada, O.K. it was the national security notam. So, one cannot go from one place to another and know the same information is applicable. The briefers don't like it any more than us. One guy up in Greenbay had me on the phone there for 15 minutes telling me how dumb all this is--I was IFR and filing in Class A airspace.

Hopefully, it will get straightened out by being standardized in some manner; otherwise, it's just garbage in garbage out.
Click to expand...

When I called Jonesborough from Gastons the first time I got the "advise you have information Bravo" message. Thw next time I got the old intro. I had the same inconsistency calling Kankakee from home. Probably it depends on which FSS my call got sent to. Now that they can and will route calls all over the country, who knows? The questions is why don't they have the same system on all FSSs and all phone systems?
 
Michael said:
Richard. Could it be that the MOAs were hot and they wanted all aircraft to be talking with Luke? That area is/can be busy with millitary training.
Click to expand...

Then the briefer should have simply listed the active MOAs. It sounds like this particular briefer was confused and spreading the confusion around.
 
cherokeeflyboy said:
Either fly greater than 3000 agl or use those MK2 eyeballs. any open stadium big enough to be capable of holding 30,000 or more should be visible from a adequate distance.

this place might help
http://airspace.nifc.gov/mapping/nifc/index.cfm
Click to expand...
If they are out in the open country maybe, but they are darn tough to spot in any populated area especially if the visiblity is less than 10 NM. Sure if you know about where to look, you could probably spot most big stadiums from 3-5 miles away provided you were high enough, but I seriously doubt that most of us could detect a stadium from 3 NM and 1000 AGL without a good idea where to look. And then you'd have to be able to determine whether or not it was actually in use before getting too close.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
FSS is going through a digestion period. OTOH, they are tasked with asking if you are familiar with the general security NOTAM; OTOH, each FSS seems to be going about it in a different manner. For instance, at Leesburg when last out there, they asked if you were familiar with Information Alpha. Of course, you had to listen to all the banal cr*p before you knew what Alpha was. At Fort Worth last week it was information Bravo, once again, you had to listen to almost a minute long recording to figure out it was the same tripe. At another place, up in Ada, O.K. it was the national security notam. So, one cannot go from one place to another and know the same information is applicable. The briefers don't like it any more than us. One guy up in Greenbay had me on the phone there for 15 minutes telling me how dumb all this is--I was IFR and filing in Class A airspace.

Hopefully, it will get straightened out by being standardized in some manner; otherwise, it's just garbage in garbage out.

Best,

Dave
Click to expand...

What I don't understand is why the FSS doesn't list any specific TFRs (not the general security NOTAM) in their TIBS. When I want to take a local flight the TIBS is really all the information I need except for the stupid potential presidential TFR etc. Because of that I have to talk to a briefer which eliminates the usefulness of the TIBS.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
FSS is going through a digestion period. OTOH, they are tasked with asking if you are familiar with the general security NOTAM; OTOH, each FSS seems to be going about it in a different manner. For instance, at Leesburg when last out there, they asked if you were familiar with Information Alpha. Of course, you had to listen to all the banal cr*p before you knew what Alpha was.
Click to expand...
And Williamsport FSS has upped the ante! We're now up to information charlie which supercedes bravo. Sheesh.
 
lancefisher said:
If they are out in the open country maybe, but they are darn tough to spot in any populated area especially if the visiblity is less than 10 NM. Sure if you know about where to look, you could probably spot most big stadiums from 3-5 miles away provided you were high enough, but I seriously doubt that most of us could detect a stadium from 3 NM and 1000 AGL without a good idea where to look. And then you'd have to be able to determine whether or not it was actually in use before getting too close.
Click to expand...

And then a straight in approach to rwy 5 at PUW puts you almost straight over the top of Martin Stadium, where WSU plays football. Of course, that's a moot point to me as I'm in the stadium for all home games. :D
 
ug i hate stadium TFRs. Im fascinated as to why my glider (useful load of 210 lbs which is equal to me + parachute) is prohibited from flying during this time. With most of our flying on the weekends and games on saturdays, Iowa State's stadium 1 mile from the airport shuts us down. Apparently we are quite a security threat.
 
RotaryWingBob said:
And Williamsport FSS has upped the ante! We're now up to information charlie which supercedes bravo. Sheesh.
Click to expand...

When did you call them??? Sunday it was still Bravo. Guess I get to listen to it agian!

Missa
 
Missa said:
When did you call them??? Sunday it was still Bravo. Guess I get to listen to it agian!

Missa
Click to expand...
Today. And you're right, they told me bravo when I called Sunday morning.
 
RotaryWingBob said:
Today. And you're right, they told me bravo when I called Sunday morning.
Click to expand...

Bob, they change it every so often so you can't skip over the message knowing you know what it is!! (Now, where did I leave my aluminum foil hat--heck, it's gotta be 'round here somewhere<g>)

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Bob, they change it every so often so you can't skip over the message knowing you know what it is!! (Now, where did I leave my aluminum foil hat--heck, it's gotta be 'round here somewhere<g>)

Best,

Dave
Click to expand...
It's worse than ATIS -- they don't even tell you the altimeter setting :D
 
RotaryWingBob said:
Today. And you're right, they told me bravo when I called Sunday morning.
Click to expand...

I called it today and it said charlie and that it was cancling the VFR and IFR but the overflight still existed. And that was information Charlie. Yea! easy.

Missa
 
tonycondon said:
ug i hate stadium TFRs. Im fascinated as to why my glider (useful load of 210 lbs which is equal to me + parachute) is prohibited from flying during this time. With most of our flying on the weekends and games on saturdays, Iowa State's stadium 1 mile from the airport shuts us down. Apparently we are quite a security threat.
Click to expand...
Maybe they are afraid you will drop a soda bottle on them
 
haha scott, i saw those guys on the Today show. I guess it works with pretty much any soda, they chose diet so it isnt so sticky. the method was to drill a very small hole in the top of the bottle, tie 5 mentoes on fishing line, run the line out the hole, and clip it with one of those overgrown paperclip things. then to set it off you just remove the clip and the pressure builds and exits the little hole. presto!

*going to buy mentos and diet coke...*
 
tonycondon said:
haha scott, i saw those guys on the Today show. I guess it works with pretty much any soda, they chose diet so it isnt so sticky. the method was to drill a very small hole in the top of the bottle, tie 5 mentoes on fishing line, run the line out the hole, and clip it with one of those overgrown paperclip things. then to set it off you just remove the clip and the pressure builds and exits the little hole. presto!

*going to buy mentos and diet coke...*
Click to expand...

It was a bit of a thread hijack but I love that gag soo much that I could not let the post pass with a shameless plug. :hairraise:
 
lancefisher said:
And the "new" information is...?
Click to expand...

CHARLIE!!!

Gotta update the recording every once and while to make people go and listen to it. Just look at as postulating about the security NOTAM.

There probably is not anything different in it than what was in Bravo. Bravao was the same as alpha. But now someone can say on their review or weekly report "I updated the security NOTAM recording" :D
 
Ron Levy said:
FYI -- Security Information CHARLIE is now current -- BRAVO is dead.
Click to expand...

Ron,

Do all FSS have the same letter now? GRB had Bravo forever and after I'd gotten used to it, some other folks started talking about how their FSS had a "new" thing about security NOTAMs when we'd had it for months.

Then, after having Bravo, we had to "tell the briefer you have the security-related notams" and then went BACK to Bravo. :dunno:

Update: Just called GRB, and they have Charlie now. They also tell you what was changed from Bravo, which is nice.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top