FSDO Question(s) after an incident

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Green Pilot

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Relatively new pilot here. Went on my first real cross country flight a few weeks ago. I made a stupid mistake that caused an emergency that ended up with an off airport landing. Fortunately no one hurt and the plane is fine. Spoke to NTSB that night and continued on. Just got contacted by the local FSDO where this occurred and they want to talk. Not surprised. Anything I should know before having that conversation? Is it adversarial as it can be when trying to get an SI? I'm willing to take my lumps but just want to be informed about the process. Any insight appreciated.
 
It is rarely adversarial, nothing like med branch. Kind of depends on what the mistake is though (not recommended to outline it here yet). A common outcome is a 709 ride where you get extra training.

Fill out a NASA report ASAP.
 
If the incident was caused by pilot error, get with a CFI ASAP and schedule ground/flight time to discuss/train how to prevent it from recurring in the future. This will demonstrate that you acknowledge the error and are taking proactive means to prevent it from happening again. That will go a long way in helping your cause.


edit- yes, and file a report as per above.
 
My experience in a couple of such encounters (one was hydroplaning, the other a runway incursion) with the FAA is that they were just looking to ensure that I wasn’t deficient enough to be unsafe. As @robin ardoin noted, getting on the training schedule to address it helps. I’m going to go out on a limb here, and guess that fuel management was the stupid mistake. Please do not confirm or deny that here, but it’s a pretty secure limb. Lots of people do it, and the FAA is all about preventing future occurrences.

Green Pilot said:
Spoke to NTSB that night and continued on.
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Not exceptionally relevant at this point, but did you initiate that or did someone else cause you to speak to them? Might be worth a review of NTSB Part 830 to determine whether your occurrence was in fact required to be reported and/or are you the one who should be talking to them. With your experience it’ll make it a much less theoretical review of that portion of regs.
 
jbarrass said:
It is rarely adversarial, nothing like med branch. Kind of depends on what the mistake is though (not recommended to outline it here yet). A common outcome is a 709 ride where you get extra training.

Fill out a NASA report ASAP.
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Too late. The NASA report has to filed within 10 days for any protection.

Green Pilot said:
Went on my first real cross country flight a few weeks ago.
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I had an incipient engine failure progressing toward likely fire for which I declared an emergency and ended up putting it down on a restricted agricultural strip. I filed a NASA report the same day (no help to you here but keep in mind for the future) with a full break-down of what happened, what my thought processes were, and my lessons-learned. The Fresno FDSO contacted me the day after the incident and could not have been nicer. Their primary concern was that everyone was safe. They asked me to fill out a fairly simple form regarding my own information (hours, medical, etc.) and the aircraft (most recent annual, pitot-static check, and ELT), along with a brief narrative (which I basically copy-pasted from the NASA report). They quickly determined that I had done everything correctly and had no further concerns.

The only fly in the ointment was that my pitot-static check had recently expired, which was my fault as the owner for not keeping a sharper eye on periodicities. They arranged to meet me at my local airport as part of the Compliance Program, and ensured I had a copy of the PBOR before we talked. Naturally, I got my pitot-static check done right away, which the local shop expedited for me once they knew the situation. I sat down with two reps to review the pitot-static regulation and have a brief (literally, like five minutes) discussion. Completely non-adversarial and very much as promised for the Compliance Program. No ding on my record.

Great advice above, especially about getting *logged* CFI training in what you screwed up (fuel is a reasonable guess). The FAA is made up of humans who will usually meet you halfway. If you clam up and lawyer up, expect the full treatment. On the other hand, if you mea culpa, show that you've identified and learned from the mistake, and especially how you will ensure it doesn't happen again, I suspect you'll be ok.
 
If it happened to be at or near a large airport that doesn't have much GA, be prepared for the possibility of some questions that really make no sense. They usually are just trying to get the info and complete a report (dot the Is & cross the Ts) but sometimes they start filling out the forms for the Air Carriers and a lot of the fields on those forms have nothing to do with us. I had that happen once on the phone after I lost a cylinder and went into JFK It took a couple of comments to "politely" get the guy to understand we were talking GA and he was asking questions that were not relevant. (Which I could remember what they were, but it was one of those "huh, what?" moments.)

And as always, be aware of the questions and do not offer more info than is needed. As others have said, very unlikely they are out to get you, but if you happen to get that one guy... Be prepared to "not feel well" and ask to reschedule. Then regroup with an aviation attorney.
 
Green Pilot said:
Relatively new pilot here. Went on my first real cross country flight a few weeks ago. I made a stupid mistake that caused an emergency that ended up with an off airport landing. Fortunately no one hurt and the plane is fine. Spoke to NTSB that night and continued on. Just got contacted by the local FSDO where this occurred and they want to talk. Not surprised. Anything I should know before having that conversation? Is it adversarial as it can be when trying to get an SI? I'm willing to take my lumps but just want to be informed about the process. Any insight appreciated.
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Not every stupid mistake is an FAR violation - some are. If you ran out of fuel, that is an FAR violation unless you did something stupid like leave a fuel cap off. A precautionary landing in a field due to low fuel is not a violation. You also may violate any Part 91 regulation as required in an emergency.

If you were forced to land because of WX, there may several violations, but you made the correct decision not to continue the flight.

Also, if you called the NTSB, you obviously don’t know the 830 regulations.

Attitude makes a big difference when dealing with the FAA. Tell the truth and be truly sorry the event happened,
 
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Thank you all for the excellent replies and advice. To answer someone's question, local law enforcement brought the NTSB in to the situation. I've made an appointment with my CFI for a ground lesson Wednesday to go over what happened and let him smack me upside the head. Someone mentioned that there is a time limit on submitting an ASRS report, at least from a "protection" standpoint, but I went ahead and submitted one anyways because it seems like the right thing to do. And I've asked the FSDO contact to meet Friday as I'll be working from home that day so it will afford me more privacy and freedom to discuss the incident.
 
ateamer said:
ASRS reports are not primarily for getting out of trouble. They are for communicating problems and solutions to other pilots so that we can get better.
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True, but which aspect do you think is more likely to motivate a pilot to file one?
 
Clip4 said:
Attitude makes a big difference when dealing with the FAA. Tell the truth and be truly sorry the event happened,
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This^

At an airport I worked at in the past, we had two Bonanzas land gear up within a month of each other. First guy got out, confessed he was a bonehead and forgot the gear. His interaction with the FAA was about 5-10 minutes over the phone, case closed. Second guy got out, pointing at the gear handle being down and swearing up and down he had a green light. The FAA spent the better part of a week between sweating him in a conference room and inspecting his aircraft looking for ANY evidence the gear system didn't work. He ended up with a 709 ride and a lot of headaches.

The more interesting part for the airport was the interaction with the local law that showed up to investigate the accident...but that's another story.
 
M20K said:
And as always, be aware of the questions and do not offer more info than is needed. As others have said, very unlikely they are out to get you, but if you happen to get that one guy... Be prepared to "not feel well" and ask to reschedule. Then regroup with an aviation attorney.
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If you have access and time, it's not a bad to speak with the attorney first. Not talking about itching for a fight, just being able to consult with someone who has experience dealing with these things and can guide you. Probably the biggest surprised look I get when I do enforcement seminars is when I say that in most of the cases I handled over the past dozen years or so, the FAA didn't even know I was involved.

Echoing an earlier comment
robin ardoin said:
get with a CFI ASAP and schedule ground/flight time to discuss/train how to prevent it from recurring in the future.
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That was probably my most common advice. Best example is the client who busted a presidential TFR during the 2016 campaign season. Everyone told him he was screwed and told him to call me. I sent him to his favorite CFI with instructions to get and log ground on the importance of obtaining a pre-flight briefing, even if all you are going to do is touch & goes at the home base. Handed it in when the FAA came a-calling and the whole thing went away.

Of course, in this world, YRMV, which is why local advice is a good thing.
 
midlifeflyer said:
If you have access and time, it's not a bad to speak with the attorney first. Not talking about itching for a fight, just being able to consult with someone who has experience dealing with these things and can guide you. Probably the biggest surprised look I get when I do enforcement seminars is when I say that in most of the cases I handled over the past dozen years or so, the FAA didn't even know I was involved.

Echoing an earlier comment

That was probably my most common advice. Best example is the client who busted a presidential TFR during the 2016 campaign season. Everyone told him he was screwed and told him to call me. I sent him to his favorite CFI with instructions to get and log ground on the importance of obtaining a pre-flight briefing, even if all you are going to do is touch & goes at the home base. Handed it in when the FAA came a-calling and the whole thing went away.

Of course, in this world, YRMV, which is why local advice is a good thing.
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Just adding to midlife flyer's good comments, it's often wise to consult with someone who's been involved with the system before (i.e. aviation lawyer) for perspective/counsel at least. Most often the FSDO safety folks are pretty fair but you generally "don't know what you don't know".

It's a separate decision to hire an attorney to represent you in front of the FAA/NTSB. If there are 3rd party injuries or damage, having an attorney is usually a great idea.

But when it's not, advice and counsel is often still a good idea.
 
I've had two complete engine failures over the years. They've been non-events as far as the FAA has been concerned. The first one there was a fatal accident one county over so when they found out that I made it back to the runway and no one was injured, that was the end of it. The other time, they asked for a copy of the last page of my logbook and the FR endorsement and the last page of the aircraft log. That was pretty much the end of that.
 
ateamer said:
ASRS reports are not primarily for getting out of trouble. They are for communicating problems and solutions to other pilots so that we can get better.
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BS that's exactly what they are for in the real world.
 
bonefishpete said:
Ok what are they for? And why did airline pilots carry them around with them.

Did you ever file one?
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See post 12.

Yes, a few times when I saw a problem with ATC or a procedure.

“The NASA Aviation Safety Reporting System(ASRS) has been a defining part of aviation safety culture since 1976 and has collected and analyzed over 2 million safety reports to date. These reports describe unsafe occurrences, near-misses or close calls, hazardous situations, and descriptions of best practices.“

So according to you there have been over 2 million reports because pilots thought they were in trouble with the FAA?

The reason the FAA and NASA placed the protection for the pilot in these reports was to insure they were getting good data and to encourage pilots to report. Much like today’s SMS and Just Culture.
 
bonefishpete said:
BS that's exactly what they are for in the real world.
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Not really. "get out of jail free" is a nice slogan which, thankfully, gets people to use it, but in the real world I've seen for the past 15+ years:
• When successfully used, the program only waives the penalty, not the violation. IOW, if you are concerned about having a violation on your record and having to say "yes" on an insurance or job application, it won't help. OTOH, if you have a job flying, at least you'll be able to do it because you won't have the suspension.​
• Inadvertent, innocent violations are typically handled at the Compliance Program level, where the NASA report is not a factor. It doesn't even come up in the conversation. The fact that you did WINGS program stuff is more important.​
• More serious events - those seen as intentional or repeated? If there was an accident, the partial immunity doesn't apply. Without an accident, it might not help you much as the FAA Attorneys may claim that your act wasn't inadvertent. I guess you could go through the expensive process of an appeal on that one, but I'm thinking you are not looking for that result. And even then the program doesn't protect you from a 709.​
 
bonefishpete said:
Ok what are they for? And why did airline pilots carry them around with them.
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midlifeflyer said:
Not really. "get out of jail free" is a nice slogan which, thankfully, gets people to use it, but in the real world I've seen for the past 15+ years:
• When successfully used, the program only waives the penalty, not the violation. IOW, if you are concerned about having a violation on your record and having to say "yes" on an insurance or job application, it won't help. OTOH, if you have a job flying, at least you'll be able to do it because you won't have the suspension.​
• Inadvertent, innocent violations are typically handled at the Compliance Program level, where the NASA report is not a factor. It doesn't even come up in the conversation. The fact that you did WINGS program stuff is more important.​
• More serious events - those seen as intentional or repeated? If there was an accident, the partial immunity doesn't apply. Without an accident, it might not help you much as the FAA Attorneys may claim that your act wasn't inadvertent. I guess you could go through the expensive process of an appeal on that one, but I'm thinking you are not looking for that result. And even then the program doesn't protect you from a 709.​
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This they can’t ground you without cause.
They don’t cover deliberate acts.
I’ve filed one. Never heard a word but could of gone south.

I believe student pilots should be aware of them in flight training.
 
bonefishpete said:
BS that's exactly what they are for in the real world.
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The FAA is not required to accept your submission as a get out of jail free card. They use 7 criteria to determine if they will. They may proceed a a full enforement, place a violation on your pilot record and not levy a suspension or civil penalty or let you go with a warning (which still is maintained on your pilot record).

If they proceed with a violation, you have to report it at the next insurance application and for renters insurance and you are barred for 3 years. If you are an owner, you can at least expect a significant premium increase.

 
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Clip4 said:
The FAA is not required to accept your submission as a get out of jail free card. They use 7 criteria to determine if they will. They may proceed a a full enforement, place a violation on your pilot record and not levy a suspension or civil penalty or let you go with a warning (which still is maintained on your pilot record).

If they proceed with a violation, you have to report it at the next insurance application and for renters insurance and you are barred for 3 years. If you are an owner, you can at least expect a significant premium increase.

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AOPA:
When: The FAA will not impose a civil penalty or certificate suspension for an inadvertent violation if the person proves that he or she made a report within 10 days of knowing of the violation—with certain limits outlined in Advisory Circular 00-46E.

True but you can appeal any action in front of a Judge with appropriate counsel aiding you. Just another tool in the box.
 
bonefishpete said:
AOPA:
When: The FAA will not impose a civil penalty or certificate suspension for an inadvertent violation if the person proves that he or she made a report within 10 days of knowing of the violation—with certain limits outlined in Advisory Circular 00-46E.

True but you can appeal any action in front of a Judge with appropriate counsel aiding you. Just another tool in the box.
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Yea, because that is a sure thing. What if the Judge rules the FAA was wrong, the violation was intentional?
 
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Here is an email I received from the FAASafety.gov back in 2023. Notice the webinar title.
1781277428023.png
You have asked us to notify you when a webinar is scheduled that meets your criteria. The following webinar may be of interest to you:

"Your Aviation Safety Get Out Of Jail Free Card"
Topic: Filing An ASRS or NASA Report
On Saturday, May 13, 2023 at 09:00 Central Daylight Time (07:00 PDT; 08:00 MDT; 10:00 EDT; 04:00 HST; 06:00 AKDT; 07:00 Arizona; 14:00 GMT)
 
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Just to button this incident up. Had a meeting with the FAA last Friday. They were able to counsel me on my errors and give me some things to think about going forward. They sent me some suggested online Wings courses. No further action is going to be taken and the case is now closed. Thanks again for all the great advice.
 
Green Pilot said:
Just to button this incident up. Had a meeting with the FAA last Friday. They were able to counsel me on my errors and give me some things to think about going forward. They sent me some suggested online Wings courses. No further action is going to be taken and the case is now closed. Thanks again for all the great advice.
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So no thumbscrews, bamboo under the fingernails, or waterboarding?
 
Green Pilot said:
Just to button this incident up. Had a meeting with the FAA last Friday. They were able to counsel me on my errors and give me some things to think about going forward. They sent me some suggested online Wings courses. No further action is going to be taken and the case is now closed. Thanks again for all the great advice.
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Not asking for details, but anything to share with the group regarding lessons-learned? One of the best aspects of aviation is the community effort to constantly learn from the experiences of others. Appreciate anything you choose to share, especially human-factors related.
 
Green Pilot said:
Just to button this incident up. Had a meeting with the FAA last Friday. They were able to counsel me on my errors and give me some things to think about going forward. They sent me some suggested online Wings courses. No further action is going to be taken and the case is now closed. Thanks again for all the great advice.
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Great news.

If you need one of us to take the Wings courses for you, just post your login info and we'll be glad to help.
:devil:
 
midlifeflyer said:
Nah. This sounds like a typical handling under the compliance program.
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I'll admit I haven't seen the process in action since 2015 when we sold the flight school, and my expectations are from that era. Hence the pleasant surprise.

We'd have students in similar situations -- lunch an airplane, no injuries, still got the sit-down and the 709 ride with an ASI.

I hope it's FAA philosophy, and not "we just don't have the manpower" that creates this outcome. A win regardless.
 
schmookeeg said:
I hope it's FAA philosophy, and not "we just don't have the manpower" that creates this outcome. A win regardless.
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My take:

I saw it taking place. I saw it developing before it became official policy. I’ve always thought it wasn’t a “kinder gentler” origin. The Pilots Bill of Rights meant ASIs had to keep enforcement files - extra work - on their desk longer. So they founds ways of moving them along quicker.

What ultimately happened is, it worked. for both pilots and the FAA. It even freed up the legal group to get extra mean on the deviations they wanted to pursue.

709s are a bit different. They are not considered enforcement actions, although I definitely saw them used as punishment. But the Compliance Attitude works in both directions. An ASI who has seen success with a “gentler” touch is going to apply it elsewhere.

Obviously, that’s not universal. But I’ve seen gear-up landings with no 709 - and that was pretty much a staple. I’ve seen oral 709s.
 
No idea, but you should probably consult with an aviation attorney or AOPA or whoever you can get ahold quickly before saying anything to the feds.
 
FrequentPilot said:
No idea, but you should probably consult with an aviation attorney or AOPA or whoever you can get ahold quickly before saying anything to the feds.
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Guess you missed this post:

Green Pilot said:
Just to button this incident up. Had a meeting with the FAA last Friday. They were able to counsel me on my errors and give me some things to think about going forward. They sent me some suggested online Wings courses. No further action is going to be taken and the case is now closed. Thanks again for all the great advice.
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