France is freaking far away!

ApacheBob

Cleared for Takeoff
Joined
Jul 7, 2006
Messages
1,088
Location
Chicago
Display Name

Display name:
ApacheBob
So I was looking at flying to Saint-Pierre/Miquelon by Newfoundland. That is like 1400 miles from Chicago!
Phoenix is only 1250 nm.
And there is a 62 nm stretch over the Atlantic. Eeeek!
I am sorry...I will try to sound more like a manly man now.:)
But the trip will need a detour over Cleveland. I doubt that flying over Canada (the shortcut) will cost much for Canadian ATC fees.
But I flew to a place near Ottawa, Canada five years ago, and there are large stretches of nothing but lakes and bears on the Canadian side of the border. So I would take the scenic (USA side of border) run to hopefully keep closer to more emergency airports and leveler off-airport landing sites.
Maybe a July or August trip?
That is a whole lot of 100LL. Maybe if I could split the costs with some POA zealots?B)
ApacheBob
 
The bill for flyng through Canada (it a quarterly bill so it will get you back also if done in the same quarter) is $19.26
 
You're thinking about it all wrong. It's only 700 nm per engine. Normally I would volunteer my services but it's France you're talking about. A man has to know his limitations.
 
That's the close part of France. I'm writing this from the outskirts of Paris. Long ride, even in a big kerosene burner. BTW, Delta isn't much better than Lufthansa in the legroom department when sitting in coach.
 
Normally I would volunteer my services but it's France you're talking about. A man has to know his limitations.

Exactly.
Now if you were talking UK or pretty much anywhere but France.....

Funny i just gave a quote to some guy to ship a guitar to France. 100 bucks basically. Its yours if you want to deliver it while your there :)
 
So I was looking at flying to Saint-Pierre/Miquelon by Newfoundland. That is like 1400 miles from Chicago!
Phoenix is only 1250 nm.
And there is a 62 nm stretch over the Atlantic. Eeeek!
I am sorry...I will try to sound more like a manly man now.:)
But the trip will need a detour over Cleveland. I doubt that flying over Canada (the shortcut) will cost much for Canadian ATC fees.
But I flew to a place near Ottawa, Canada five years ago, and there are large stretches of nothing but lakes and bears on the Canadian side of the border. So I would take the scenic (USA side of border) run to hopefully keep closer to more emergency airports and leveler off-airport landing sites.
Maybe a July or August trip?
That is a whole lot of 100LL. Maybe if I could split the costs with some POA zealots?B)
ApacheBob

Bob, you fly the north side of the St. Lawrence river up to the Straits of Belles Isles (opposite St. Anthony) it's less than 10 miles across. Go high enough and you could glide to either side. Here were my stops (about 2 1/2 hrs apart) DPA->Sarnia (customs) -> Oshawa, ON (pick up brother) -> Trois Rivieres (overnight) -> Sept Isles -> St. Anthony, NF -> Gander.

Here's a link to the pictures. http://www.barryandjackie.smugmug.com/gallery/737863

I was 15 hrs in one day coming back to Toronto. Left Gander at 6:00am local, arrived Toronto 7:30pm local (1 1/2 hr time differential).
 
Bob, you fly the north side of the St. Lawrence river up to the Straits of Belles Isles (opposite St. Anthony) it's less than 10 miles across. Go high enough and you could glide to either side. Here were my stops (about 2 1/2 hrs apart) DPA->Sarnia (customs) -> Oshawa, ON (pick up brother) -> Trois Rivieres (overnight) -> Sept Isles -> St. Anthony, NF -> Gander.

Here's a link to the pictures. http://www.barryandjackie.smugmug.com/gallery/737863

I was 15 hrs in one day coming back to Toronto. Left Gander at 6:00am local, arrived Toronto 7:30pm local (1 1/2 hr time differential).

Great photos!:blueplane:
ApacheBob
 
ah so its like the cheaters way to go to france :)
 
Bob, you fly the north side of the St. Lawrence river up to the Straits of Belles Isles (opposite St. Anthony) it's less than 10 miles across. Go high enough and you could glide to either side. Here were my stops (about 2 1/2 hrs apart) DPA->Sarnia (customs) -> Oshawa, ON (pick up brother) -> Trois Rivieres (overnight) -> Sept Isles -> St. Anthony, NF -> Gander.

Here's a link to the pictures. http://www.barryandjackie.smugmug.com/gallery/737863

I was 15 hrs in one day coming back to Toronto. Left Gander at 6:00am local, arrived Toronto 7:30pm local (1 1/2 hr time differential).
I think I mentioned my planned route in another thread. We're considering coming up from the south because we want to do Bar Harbor. We could then head around to pick up your route, but it takes us significantly out of our way. In the twin, I'd have no problems doing the 57NM across the bay, but it's something I will definitely be thinking about in the 182.

I've done longer overwater in that plane, but that was the Bahamas, where the water is slightly warmer! Who knows, maybe Leslie and I will take the opportunity to get instruction in the 310 and get our multi ratings! (Of course then we'd still be on a single engine over the water, because most training for the multi is done with only one working! :yes:)
 
ah so its like the cheaters way to go to france :)
Even that part of Canada seems like France. I've been to Havre St. Pierre which is a little town near Sept Isles, and I don't think anyone spoke English. At all. It was an uncontrolled field and there were a couple other planes in the area who were giving their position reports in French. :eek: Even getting fueled at the FBO was a challenge as I remember.
 
I can speak a little. Once I start talking, they beg me to stop and then they admit they speak English.
Voulez-vous?:blowingkisses:
ApacheBob
 
I think I mentioned my planned route in another thread. We're considering coming up from the south because we want to do Bar Harbor. We could then head around to pick up your route, but it takes us significantly out of our way. In the twin, I'd have no problems doing the 57NM across the bay, but it's something I will definitely be thinking about in the 182.

I've done longer overwater in that plane, but that was the Bahamas, where the water is slightly warmer! Who knows, maybe Leslie and I will take the opportunity to get instruction in the 310 and get our multi ratings! (Of course then we'd still be on a single engine over the water, because most training for the multi is done with only one working! :yes:)

So...get the multi-rating and split the gas cost with me and let's go!:blueplane:
ApacheBob
 
I think I mentioned my planned route in another thread. We're considering coming up from the south because we want to do Bar Harbor. We could then head around to pick up your route, but it takes us significantly out of our way. In the twin, I'd have no problems doing the 57NM across the bay, but it's something I will definitely be thinking about in the 182.

I've done longer overwater in that plane, but that was the Bahamas, where the water is slightly warmer! Who knows, maybe Leslie and I will take the opportunity to get instruction in the 310 and get our multi ratings! (Of course then we'd still be on a single engine over the water, because most training for the multi is done with only one working! :yes:)

A couple of things to remember if you decide to cross the "big water" route:

1) For flights over water beyond gliding distance the Cdn Govt REQUIRES you to have survival equipment on board (I'll try and find the reference and post it). The water up there is cold (it's the Labrador Current). I think immersion suits, which must be worn, and a life raft are required but I'll check.

2) Avgas is difficult to find - according to the June, 2006, CFS, the ONLY airports in Nfld which have it are St. Anthony, Springdale, Gander and St. John's. Stephenville and Deer Lake do not! Plan your route accordingly.
 
this sounds like a lot of fun! too bad I don't have my PPL yet.

Neither do I. I got a certificate, but never a license. Probably never will get a pilot's license.
 
I can speak a little. Once I start talking, they beg me to stop and then they admit they speak English.
Voulez-vous?:blowingkisses:
ApacheBob

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

You know what the most important phrase to know in French is?

"I'm so sorry I don't speak your beautiful language."

That's all you really need to know. :rofl:
 
I can speak a little. Once I start talking, they beg me to stop and then they admit they speak English.
Voulez-vous?:blowingkisses:
ApacheBob

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

You know what the most important phrase to know in French is?

"I'm so sorry I don't speak your beautiful language."

That's all you really need to know. :rofl:
 
I think I mentioned my planned route in another thread. We're considering coming up from the south because we want to do Bar Harbor. We could then head around to pick up your route, but it takes us significantly out of our way. In the twin, I'd have no problems doing the 57NM across the bay, but it's something I will definitely be thinking about in the 182.

I've done longer overwater in that plane, but that was the Bahamas, where the water is slightly warmer! Who knows, maybe Leslie and I will take the opportunity to get instruction in the 310 and get our multi ratings! (Of course then we'd still be on a single engine over the water, because most training for the multi is done with only one working! :yes:)


Let's look up the gliding range of the 182:
Somewhere around 11 NM at 8000, maybe 14 NM at 10,000.

So, for no wind conditions, you have 57 NM - 22 NM for 35 NM when your out of gliding range of land.

35 NM is maybe 20 min or less in a 182, at 8000 feet.

So, for your worst case scenario, you have a 20 minute window for a catastrophic engine failure (complete failure, not a partial power loss) where you'll go swimming. Every minute gets you at least 2 NM closer to shore.

Your risk decision should be based on:
The likelihood of being completely surprised during that window (no rising oil temp, no roughness, etc) and having a failure.
The impact of the failure - in winter, you're gonna die, almost certainly, unless you fly in a gumby suit. In summer, with good life jackets, you'll probably be OK, since you'll have time to call mayday and there are generally pleasure craft out for you to ditch nearby.

So you have your risk and impact. What can you do to mitigate the risks and impact?

Engine Monitor, Good Maintenance, close attention to detail, will all lower your risk, since you'll probably catch a problem early enough to abort the crossing.

A life raft, PLB (406 MHz), and survival gear would reduce the impact. Having family on board may increase the impact.


Of course, nobody can define what your "accept/deny" level of residual risk will be. This was just more of an example of how formal risk analysis is done, in the hope that others will make their own evaluations thoughtfully. Risk management is one of my hot buttons as an engineering and security professional, and I see way too many people applying "rules of thumb" they learned from their instructors or peers without really thinking about it.

For the record, I'd make that flight solo year-round, in one of the rental 182s I fly. I'd cross at 10,000 (reducing the window by a couple of minutes). I have a high degree of confidence in the maintenance performed by my rental organization, and the airplane has the G1000 with good engine monitoring capabilities, as well as that big moving map that will show the nearest land point. Taking oxygen might let me fly even higher, but there's a point where increased altitude reduces aircraft performance to the point where the window gets longer as you climb.
To reduce the impact I'd be sure to be IFR so I'd be in contact with ATC, I'd have a PLB, and I might also consider wearing a Mustang suit. I also have sufficient life insurance (with no GA exclusion) so that I don't worry about what my family would do without me, financially at least.

With my family on board, I would not make this flight except on a warm summer day where the water temps were as high as possible, and I'd add a raft to the on-board equipment.

This is the same decision I make when I decide whether to go over or around the lake on the way to OSH in summers. Generally if I'm solo I go over, if I'm with family I go around.

Best wishes,
 
A couple of things to remember if you decide to cross the "big water" route:

1) For flights over water beyond gliding distance the Cdn Govt REQUIRES you to have survival equipment on board (I'll try and find the reference and post it). The water up there is cold (it's the Labrador Current). I think immersion suits, which must be worn, and a life raft are required but I'll check.

CAR 602.62
(1) No person shall conduct a take-off or landing on water in an
(2) aircraft or operate an aircraft over water beyond a point where the aircraft could reach shore in the event of an engine failure, unless a life preserver, individual floatation device or personal flotation device is carried for each person on board.
(3) No person shall operate a land aeroplane, gyroplane, helicopter or airship at more than 50 nautical miles from shore unless a life preserver is carried for each person on board.
...

CAR 602.63
(1) No person shall operate over water a single-engined aeroplane, or a multi-engined aeroplane that is unable to maintain flight with any engine failed, at more than 100 nautical miles, or the distance that can be covered in 30 minutes of flight at the cruising speed filed in the flight plan or flight itinerary, whichever distance is the lesser, from a suitable emergency landing site unless life rafts are carried on board and are sufficient in total rated capacity to accomodate all of the persons on board.
...
The above is excerpted from the "Flying in Canada -- The AOPA/COPA Guide to Cross-Border Operations." Haven't found anything about survival suits. That's not to say they wouldn't be a very good idea.


2) Avgas is difficult to find - according to the June, 2006, CFS, the ONLY airports in Nfld which have it are St. Anthony, Springdale, Gander and St. John's. Stephenville and Deer Lake do not! Plan your route accordingly.
So far, the only source I've had for fuel info has been the online airport info in AOPA's (Jeppesen's) RTFP. It seems to include info on Canada and Greenland, but not Iceland or further east.

Speaking to Tim's points about risk management, I haven't gotten near the point yet where I have enough information to do a proper risk assessment. This is still in the dreaming stage, though I suspect I'll find a way to make it happen at some point. Among other things, we'd need to evaluate the survivability of the water as opposed to the terrain in the area and whether there would be a good chance of survival in that terrain that would offset the increased time flying in the desolate area. If we go, it'll be with my wife in the plane with me, making the decisions together, and we don't have kids.
 
Well if there's a land route, I guarantee you that your survival chances (assuming you stay in contact with ATC and have a PLB) go WAY up if you land on terra firma, even if it's deserted. And you can carry a lot of land survival gear for the same space/weight as even the smallest life raft.

So if you have a choice, it's not so much single vs multi (which was the premise I was addressing) as it is time saved vs risk. The same process is used, but it's more of a risk/cost decision versus a go/no-go decision.

I think my decision for solo flight would be the same, but I'd take my family over land, unless the route added so much distance that fuel would be a concern.

Best wishes,
 
I spent a night in St. Pierre & Miquelon. It really is a peice of france. They all drive Peugots, spend Euros, eat fine food and drink lots of wine. The kids were all perfectly dressed. Other than the starkly beautiful surroundings, you'd think you were in a small French town. It was very cool.

Chris
 
So, if I am reading this correctly, Grant, I am good to go in an Apache over the 60 miles of Atlantic?
I am not sure that I would opt to do it, but the mighty Apache can hold altitude on one engine.:blueplane:
ApacheBob
 
So, if I am reading this correctly, Grant, I am good to go in an Apache over the 60 miles of Atlantic?
I am not sure that I would opt to do it, but the mighty Apache can hold altitude on one engine.:blueplane:
ApacheBob
Yes. Actually, I'm good to go in the single, as long as I have a life preserver, individual floatation device or personal flotation device. Of course, there's legal and there's safe.
 
So far, the only source I've had for fuel info has been the online airport info in AOPA's (Jeppesen's) RTFP. It seems to include info on Canada and Greenland, but not Iceland or further east.

I have the June, 2006, Canada Flight Supplement however it is still a good idea to phone and check (I'm doing that next time).The CFS stated Lourdes-de-Blanc Sablon had 100LL. Landed there and was told they hadn't been selling it fot twomonths. Had to backtrack to St. Anthony. That was August, 2005, and I note the 2006 CFS still reports it as having 100LL!
 
Well, I'm fluent in French (I have a master's in the language) and would LOVE to fly to France from Pittsburgh. :) I shudder to think of the clearance though <grins>

Barry
CP-ASEL
AGI
CFI-wannabe
 
Back
Top