Fort Hood in Texas attacked

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

I don't have much patience for such historical relativism and 'what ifs'. I heard similar claims that World War II in Europe would have never happened if only Poland was a bit 'nicer' and 'congenial' and allowed Hitler to build its corridor to Danzig (Gdansk), such a reasonable demand!. So in fact Poles were indirectly guilty of starting World War II.

Of course you don't. It's far easier to engage in such sophisticated analyses as, "them bad, us good. Us good because United States abbreviated U.S., spelling 'us,' making us awesome." US-A! US-A!

[edit:] P.S. It's not in any way a "what ifs" game, as you've opted to characterize it. Instead, it's looking at what was done in the past, and pondering the issue of, "we don't like people getting killed, especially when they're ours; I wonder if there's any lesson we can take away from this on the prevention of war and the preservation of peace."

I know, I know. Preferring peace to war means you probably have little tiny chesticles, enjoy soy lattes, drive a Prius instead of a diesel GMC (tell you what, man, tell you what), and play a wimpy sport like lacrosse rather than the sport of true athletes (baseball). But, there's something to be said for wasting neither life nor treasure on a conflict that doesn't need to be fought when helping to ensure that it's not fought costs you nothing and, in fact, puts you in a better position than you would otherwise be. [/edit]

 

[steingar]

Agreed. Things are usually complex and multifactorial. But such truths make for poor campaign slogans and poorer sayings for teabaggers to misspell on their little signs.

 

[olasek]

a conflict that doesn't need to be fought when helping to ensure that it's not fought costs you nothing and,

Spare me this PC BS. Tell this to so many nations that tried to defend themselves in World War II that in fact surrender was such a better option, so less 'costly'. Tell it to Czechs, Poles, English, Greek, Philippino, Chinese, Korean, etc. It makes me vomit when I read stuff like yours.

 

[Trapper John]

Spare me this PC BS.

Okay, then.

A priest, a rabbi and a polack walk into a bar...no, wait...

Two Polacks are building a house. One of them is putting on the siding. He picks up a nail, hammers it in. Picks up another nail, throws it away. Picks up a nail, hammers it in. Picks up another, throws it away. This goes on for a while, and finally his friend comes over and asks him why he is throwing half of the nails away. He replies, "Those ones were pointed on the wrong end." The buddy gets exasperated and says "You idiot, those are for the other side of the house!"


Trapper John

 

[Bob Noel]

Of course you don't. It's far easier to engage in such sophisticated analyses as, "them bad, us good. Us good because United States abbreviated U.S., spelling 'us,' making us awesome." US-A! US-A!

[edit:] P.S. It's not in any way a "what ifs" game, as you've opted to characterize it. Instead, it's looking at what was done in the past, and pondering the issue of, "we don't like people getting killed, especially when they're ours; I wonder if there's any lesson we can take away from this on the prevention of war and the preservation of peace."

I know, I know. Preferring peace to war means you probably have little tiny chesticles, enjoy soy lattes, drive a Prius instead of a diesel GMC (tell you what, man, tell you what), and play a wimpy sport like lacrosse rather than the sport of true athletes (baseball). But, there's something to be said for wasting neither life nor treasure on a conflict that doesn't need to be fought when helping to ensure that it's not fought costs you nothing and, in fact, puts you in a better position than you would otherwise be. [/edit]

What is sometimes overlooked is the cultural norm of the day. Don't evaluate actions and motives by today's culture. Don't evaluate other cultures by *our* morals/values today. Instead think about the
information available at the time, in Japan and here in the USA.
Think about the Japanese culture at the time. Think about
conflicts/invasions of the day. Who was invading who?

btw - sometimes not fighting a war isn't free. Did we not spend
a lot of money to make SAC's mission successful?

 

[rottydaddy]

And a mental health specialist.

"Who watches the watchmen?", indeed...

 

[thepetrostate]

Originally Posted by Obi Heed Kenobi
a conflict that doesn't need to be fought when helping to ensure that it's not fought costs you nothing and,

Spare me this PC BS. Tell this to so many nations that tried to defend themselves in World War II that in fact surrender was such a better option, so less 'costly'. Tell it to Czechs, Poles, English, Greek, Philippino, Chinese, Korean, etc. It makes me vomit when I read stuff like yours.

Yeah yeah I'm with you, let's shoot 'em where they stand, kill them all, rape, pillage then rape some more, they deserve it and creeps like Obi here with his little chesticles and peace luv dope philosophies need to stay the hell out of our way.

We're killing machines, man, and we got to do what we got to do. I got to go projectile vomit.

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

Spare me this PC BS. Tell this to so many nations that tried to defend themselves in World War II that in fact surrender was such a better option, so less 'costly'. Tell it to Czechs, Poles, English, Greek, Philippino, Chinese, Korean, etc. It makes me vomit when I read stuff like yours.

Of course it does. Primarily because you've never bothered reading about the history of the Second World War, as is obvious from your posts.

But, a substantial part of your nausea is also due to your seeming incapability, perhaps deliberate, perhaps not, of understanding what I wrote above.

 

[thepetrostate]

Agreed. Things are usually complex and multifactorial. But such truths make for poor campaign slogans and poorer sayings for teabaggers to misspell on their little signs.

I'll have you know I teabag and my signs are HYOOGE.

take that!

 

[thepetrostate]

"Who watches the Watchmen?"...

I tell you it was a better movie than Amelia.

 

[olasek]

Primarily because you've never bothered reading about the history of the Second World War, .. incapability, perhaps deliberate, perhaps not, of understanding what I wrote above.

Sure, heard it many times, got anything else equally illuminating? You were probably still wearing diapers when I was learning about World War II - on the other side of the Atlantic.

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

Sure, heard it many times, got anything else equally illuminating?

What would you like illumination upon? The merits of civil debate on the internet? How to tell someone they're stupid so subtly that they don't even notice it? Examining past conduct in an effort to do it better the next time? High altitude cooking (cakes can be a real bleep up here)? Burning dog poo and the human response?

That last one's wonderful. See, what you do is find a piece of nice dog poo (the dog in your avatar looks like she's got nice stinky ones, maybe even human-sized), put it in a bag, light the bag on fire on somebody's porch, ring the doorbell, and then watch from a safe distance (preferably behind a tree, just in case of a shotgun). The human response is, predictably and almost uniformly, to put it out by stepping on it (despite the wife's caution of "don't put it out with your boots, Ted"); only belatedly does the subject realize that there was poo in the bag!

You were probably still wearing diapers when I was learning about World War II - on the other side of the Atlantic.

I wasn't aware that the facts of history changed if you learned it in early 1981 in Yurp. But, maybe it did. The gov't didn't break the Ultra/Enigma secret until 1974 or so; they were probably still catching up in the '80's. Not too many big changes since then, though; at least, not in 'Murcan classes. Or, did you learn about it in 1981 Africa? I suppose that's on the other side of the Atlantic, too. I wouldn't want to be presumptuous!

 

[steingar]

I have naught but utter respect for those who went through WWII. They experienced things that would have likely shattered my consciousness, and kept on going with grit and determination. However, grit and determination do not make one an able historian.

 

[thepetrostate]

Sure, heard it many times, got anything else equally illuminating? You were probably still wearing diapers when I was learning about World War II - on the other side of the Atlantic.

Ack!

I knew it. You're not only a killing machine, a historian of which there is no equal, you're Oxford educated.

I hate you stuffy wuffies.

Sincerely,

John From Middle Tenn State U.

 

[dmccormack]

I wasn't aware that the facts of history changed if you learned it in early 1981 in Yurp. But, maybe it did. The gov't didn't break the Ultra/Enigma secret until 1974 or so; they were probably still catching up in the '80's. Not too many big changes since then, though; at least, not in 'Murcan classes. Or, did you learn about it in 1981 Africa? I suppose that's on the other side of the Atlantic, too. I wouldn't want to be presumptuous!

Personal attacks aside...

Hindsight is somewhat better than contemporary myopia, but -- as in all life -- we can only judge based on what people knew at the time.

My father was on a Destroyer Escort in the Pacific in 1945. He was glad the bomb was dropped, even though he was assigned to the occupation and was in Nagasaki in 46.

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

...

John From Middle Tenn State U.

I haven't heard that name in a while! First, a guy I coached with had a daughter that went there - she was a cutie (I was only 23-24 at the time, I was allowed to say it, even though he didn't appreciate it). Second, I knew a few people who went there when I was in grad school. Third, I vaguely remember hearing the name a few years back in something football-related - didn't they upset somebody a few seasons ago?

What's funny is that I never actually figured out where the school is....

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

Personal attacks aside...

Hindsight is somewhat better than contemporary myopia, but -- as in all life -- we can only judge based on what people knew at the time.

Oh, absolutely; I don't mean to suggest otherwise. You make your decisions on the information you have at hand - and hope that you've made the right one (and there's always more than one way to skin the proverbial cat).

The advantage of hindsight, however, is that it can be 20/20 - and that's no small advantage in trying to figure out what you did right and what you did wrong.

I don't view it so much as "judging" - it's not something where you're trying to assess blame. Instead, you're using the past to figure out what to do, or what not to do, in the future. For instance, it was beaten into our collective brain in World War I that flesh didn't stand up to machine guns - the Germans learned it, the Entente didn't. That's not assessing blame (although it's really easy to do in WWI/II) - it's a simple observation of, "seriously, guys, let's not do that again."

My father was on a Destroyer Escort in the Pacific in 1945. He was glad the bomb was dropped, even though he was assigned to the occupation and was in Nagasaki in 46.

I highly doubt that there are many Americans from ca. 1945 that would suggest otherwise, and neither would I (I wouldn't have hesitated, had the choice been mine). Lee said it best; and you do what you have to do to win.

If hindsight shows you that there was a better way, so be it - you keep that in mind the next time around. But it's not an issue of blame. It's an issue of learning and then applying what you've learned.

 

[alaskaflyer]

I haven't heard that name in a while! First, a guy I coached with had a daughter that went there - she was a cutie (I was only 23-24 at the time, I was allowed to say it, even though he didn't appreciate it). Second, I knew a few people who went there when I was in grad school. Third, I vaguely remember hearing the name a few years back in something football-related - didn't they upset somebody a few seasons ago?

What's funny is that I never actually figured out where the school is....

Murfreesboro south of Nashville. Used to have a decent aeronautics program.

 

[thepetrostate]

I haven't heard that name in a while! First, a guy I coached with had a daughter that went there - she was a cutie (I was only 23-24 at the time, I was allowed to say it, even though he didn't appreciate it). Second, I knew a few people who went there when I was in grad school. Third, I vaguely remember hearing the name a few years back in something football-related - didn't they upset somebody a few seasons ago?

Don't come swishy tailing over to me Liberal-Stinko-pig, peace luv dope, right arm and all that commie stuff.

What's funny is that I never actually figured out where the school is....

Texas....where all us killers are from.

 

[dmccormack]

If hindsight shows you that there was a better way, so be it - you keep that in mind the next time around. But it's not an issue of blame. It's an issue of learning and then applying what you've learned.

My undergraduate degree is History and it will always be my first interest (see my library for corroboration).

I don't think we can ever be "Objective" (the 20/20 thing) as the observer imposes his/her own particular interests, lenses, filters.

This doesn't mean we can never know The Truth.

But we should beware chronological conceit.

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

Don't come swishy tailing over to me Liberal-Stinko-pig, peace luv dope, right arm and all that commie stuff.


Texas....where all us killers are from.

M'eh; it was more of stiff-legged walk to do some business with your petunias.

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

My undergraduate degree is History and it will always be my first interest (see my library for corroboration).

I don't think we can ever be "Objective" (the 20/20 thing) as the observer imposes his/her own particular interests, lenses, filters.

This doesn't mean we can never know The Truth.

But we should beware chronological conceit.

Agreed as to all. But, it doesn't mean it isn't worthwhile to try. While I don't put much credence in the old cliche of "he who ignores history...," understanding the past is a window to the present.

 

[John Baker]

Or you could call it careful consideration before making a major decision.

Most people who know what their goal is, have little or no problem deciding on how to achieve it. An actual leader, if he knows what his goal is, has no problem whatsoever deciding on how to achieve it.

Taking little chicken steps to test the water is no way to lead a country or to win a war. Without a clear objective in mind, that is all about what anyone would, or could do.

Obama must decide what, exactly, he wants to accomplish in Afghanistan. If and/or when he ever figures that out, then deciding on what is needed will be no problem.

He has led us into a situation that is costing us in money and lives, while he wrings his hands, consults his magic eight ball, delivers us uplifting speeches, and continues on ahead, with no idea of where he is going.

His behavior is not careful consideration, it's confusion.

John

 

[timwinters]

 

[timwinters]

...

 

[John Baker]

I'm sorry you guys, I should just keep my Internet activity to mornings. It seems like the later in the day I post, the more radical I get.

I have always maintained that every president we get is always a little worse than the previous one, so far, it seems I am correct.

When Obama won the election, I was as excited as everyone else. Not anymore.

(Please note I posted this late in the day.)

(I should also add that the Special Olympics poster analogy is considerably worse than even my most radical rantings. I can not imagine what that kids parents or family would feel if they ever laid eyes on it. Very poor taste.)

John

 

[SkyHog]

I'm sorry you guys, I should just keep my Internet activity to mornings. It seems like the later in the day I post, the more radical I get.

I have always maintained that every president we get is always a little worse than the previous one, so far, it seems I am correct.

When Obama won the election, I was as excited as everyone else. Not anymore.

(Please note I posted this late in the day.)

(I should also add that the Special Olympics poster analogy is considerably worse than even my most radical rantings. I can not imagine what that kids parents or family would feel if they ever laid eyes on it. Very poor taste.)

John

They would be disgusted that someone on the internet would use their child, who has mental retardation, to execute a joke.

I worked in an office full of retarded people for slightly over a year. While I still use "retarded" in a derogatory fashion to describe things that are stupid, and I refer to people with those disabilities as being "retarded," my awareness of how they react to things is certainly heightened.

Just like Obama's HORRIBLE Special Olympics joke, I don't like those types of displays. They're retarded.

 

[timwinters]

(I should also add that the Special Olympics poster analogy is considerably worse than even my most radical rantings. I can not imagine what that kids parents or family would feel if they ever laid eyes on it. Very poor taste.)

Sure it's irreverent but it's one of the most hilariously accurate things I've ever seen posted on the internet and thought it was quite fitting here.

I guess if you find that post to be in poor taste and offensive then you should avoid almost all of today comedians including the "all american" Blue Collar Comedy Tour and especially Larry the Cable Guy's act. His retard references make this pale by comparison (and his turrets syndrom/sign language skit is a riot).

With that said, if I offended anyone with that post, I sincerely apologize.

 

[ScottM]

 

[Maxmosbey]

I agree. I'm not offended enough by Tim's poster to get my panties in a wad, but I have personal reasons to feel like I really don't want to participate in this thread any more. There is another one on the same topic in spin zone, so I'm headed over there.

 

[ScottM]

I agree. I'm not offended enough by Tim's poster to get my panties in a wad, but I have personal reasons to feel like I really don't want to participate in this thread any more. There is another one on the same topic in spin zone, so I'm headed over there.

It was not Tim's post alone that compelled me to make my comment. Indeed I was feeling that way about this thread long before then. At least the SZ version of this thread is being handled in a more mature manner.

 

[Tom-D]

That name says it all, doesn't it?

The thing that POs me more than any thing is, he is still on life support.

 

[Anthony]

We are at war. Why at least officers and maybe some non-comms aren't carrying a sidearm is beyond me. A Beretta M9 or better yet, a real gun a 1911 in .45 ACP. Somebody would have been able to put this terrorist down after he drew his guns.

This was a premeditated, act of terrorism. He didn't just snap like the psycho babble mainstream media wants you to believe.

 

[ScottM]

We are at war. Why at least officers and maybe some non-comms aren't carrying a sidearm is beyond me. A Beretta M9 or better yet, a real gun a 1911 in .45 ACP. Somebody would have been able to put this terrorist down after he drew his guns.

This was a premeditated, act of terrorism. He didn't just snap like the psycho babble mainstream media wants you to believe.

According to reports he was put down 3 minutes after the firing started.

Lt. Gen. Bob Cone said Friday that Munley and her partner responded within three minutes of reported gunfire.

Cone said Munley shot the gunman four times despite being shot herself.
"It was an amazing and an aggressive performance by this police officer," he said.

http://www.myfoxdfw.com/dpp/news/hero+cop+praised+online

This goes to show how fast these thing happen. There is no time to think at all, you go on training and instinct.

 

[ausrere]

According to reports he was put down 3 minutes after the firing started.

http://www.myfoxdfw.com/dpp/news/hero+cop+praised+online

This goes to show how fast these thing happen. There is no time to think at all, you go on training and instinct.

Her response time from disptach to arrival was probably 3 mins. There is going to be some time between first shots, call to 9-1-1 and then dispatch. So it's probably more like 5-7 mins from first shot to her arrival at the scene. It used to really irk me when we were called out by the media over long response times when we easily responded within 1-3 minutes of the call to dispatch. The media didn't take in to account the lag in time from incident to the call to 9-1-1 to be made.

 

[Areeda]

Her response time from disptach to arrival was probably 3 mins. There is going to be some time between first shots, call to 9-1-1 and then dispatch. So it's probably more like 5-7 mins from first shot to her arrival at the scene. It used to really irk me when we were called out by the media over long response times when we easily responded within 1-3 minutes of the call to dispatch. The media didn't take in to account the lag in time from incident to the call to 9-1-1 to be made.

OK Lisa,

Sounds like Light Speed vs Warp Speed. Amazing either way.

Joe

 

[ausrere]

OK Lisa,

Sounds like Light Speed vs Warp Speed. Amazing either way.

Joe

Oh I agree! I just wanted to point out he probably had a little more time shooting than people think. Not a lot probably, only a couple of minutes, but when bullets are flying two minutes is a heck of a long time!

 

[alaskaflyer]

Despite the fact that every O-2 isn't walking around with a shoulder holster as Anthony proposes (and I agree with you BTW in this case) military bases - even relatively "open" ones, are pretty heavily policed.

So what? The recent case in Seattle is perhaps illustrative, if not on point.

Even armed US soldiers in a constant state of combat readiness are being killed by terrorist with distressing regularity.

 

[ScottM]

Oh I agree! I just wanted to point out he probably had a little more time shooting than people think. Not a lot probably, only a couple of minutes, but when bullets are flying two minutes is a heck of a long time!

yep.

I was not trying to be critical of the officer. Tough situation, with only a minuscule amount of time to make a judgment and act. She did it right. Too bad she also got wounded. But I salute her.

 

[John Baker]

Sure it's irreverent but it's one of the most hilariously accurate things I've ever seen posted on the internet and thought it was quite fitting here.

I guess if you find that post to be in poor taste and offensive then you should avoid almost all of today comedians including the "all american" Blue Collar Comedy Tour and especially Larry the Cable Guy's act. His retard references make this pale by comparison (and his turrets syndrom/sign language skit is a riot).

With that said, if I offended anyone with that post, I sincerely apologize.

OK, this is the last of this stuff, after letting it rattle around in my semi empty head for a while, I have concluded that I'm the one who should be apologizing. Tim, there is nothing wrong with a little sick humor now and then. I was totally out of line for busting your chops over it. I also apologize to everyone else for screwing up this thread.

John