Foreflight sells to private equity

Garmin nav database for my 430W is over $200 cheaper/yr than Jepp. Wish I would have known this sooner than YESTERDAY

/adamsandler
 
schmookeeg said:
Confirmed! :) Android was my original reason for going GP -- I wanted "the option" to move to a high-end android tablet, which was never a thing. Some of the samsungs came close, but were still sorta lame vs. the ipad.

I had GP on my android phone as a backup. When I cracked my iPad at the start of a long XC, I learned that the android GP doesn't do any meaningful ADS-B in connectivity, or at least, none of the devices I had thoughtfully brought along. So it was not very useful in-flight.

That discovery actually got me to switch to iOS. GP works great on an iphone.
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I think that was a marketing decision, not driven by technical capabilities of either platform.

Garmin wanted to steal FF users. Many of those users were anchored to FF by their Stratus or Sentry. All are iOS users, so they added support to GP on iPhone.

But ... adding support for other ADS-B devices to GP on Android would not steal any more FF users, and it might wind up being a net negative for Garmin revenue since they would sell less GDLs. So GP Android stayed Garmin only for portables.
 
FF has had a strong presence at AirVenture — in the Boeing pavilion. I wonder if FF will be at AV this year? If Boeing reallocates the space due to the sale, FF will need to locate space at the last minute. Since it appears Boeing sold their GA related products, will Boeing even be at AV this year? If Boeing bails on AV, who will take up the slack. If Boeing and FF are present at AV, it could lead to some awkward conversations. Will be interesting to see how this plays out.
 
wsquare said:
FF has had a strong presence at AirVenture — in the Boeing pavilion. I wonder if FF will be at AV this year? If Boeing reallocates the space due to the sale, FF will need to locate space at the last minute. Since it appears Boeing sold their GA related products, will Boeing even be at AV this year? If Boeing bails on AV, who will take up the slack. If Boeing and FF are present at AV, it could lead to some awkward conversations. Will be interesting to see how this plays out.
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The deal is "expected to close by the end of the year" so I would imagine that it will still be business as usual with ForeFlight at Boeing's building for this year.

That said, I wonder if they'll even have a presence next year.
 
Don’t forget that the military & foreign airlines are very big customers of Jeppesen and Foreflight.
Very big.
 
This can not be good for us Foreflight users. I tried to add the runway analysis to my account last week and it took four days.
 
Not saying it would be effortless, but the basic functionality of a gps position on a moving map is probably something that Grok could write in seconds with the correct description. I’d expect some competition to come out of this because FF passed what most pilots need years ago.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
The deal is "expected to close by the end of the year" so I would imagine that it will still be business as usual with ForeFlight at Boeing's building for this year.

That said, I wonder if they'll even have a presence next year.
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I'm concerned about that too. They sponsor the free youth admission. No idea what they actually pay for that, or if eaa would actually start charging again, but that might change my July plans. Hard to imagine Boeing pulling out, but ford had a huge presence a few years ago and pulled out completely.
 
wsquare said:
FF has had a strong presence at AirVenture — in the Boeing pavilion. I wonder if FF will be at AV this year?
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Sales like this are usually contingent on post-announcement financial performance meeting certain benchmarks. I think it would be unwise for Boeing to do anything but the usual as that would introduce an unknown risk to performance.

Dumber things have happened though and post acquisition (next year) may be contingent on existing contractual obligations. Without knowing the details, that’s hard to guess at.
 
wsquare said:
FF has had a strong presence at AirVenture — in the Boeing pavilion. I wonder if FF will be at AV this year? If Boeing reallocates the space due to the sale, FF will need to locate space at the last minute. Since it appears Boeing sold their GA related products, will Boeing even be at AV this year? If Boeing bails on AV, who will take up the slack. If Boeing and FF are present at AV, it could lead to some awkward conversations. Will be interesting to see how this plays out.
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Oshkosh is GA focused, specifically homebuilt focused, but it's much more than GA. If Boeing wasn't at the biggest airshow in the world just because commercial aviation isn't the focus, it would be a bad signal to the aviation world. Anyone who is serious cannot discount the show.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Ten years ago, yeah. Now it's just something people repeat on the Internet.
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Not sure I'd go that far. I can't speak to the Android tablet experience, nor the iPhone experience, but GP on my Pixel has historically been substantially jankier than on my iPad. I grant that some of that is likely due to form-factor and I think the most recent version of Android GP is actually much closer to the iPad in terms of functionality.

I say all this as a guy who has long disliked Apple products for a number of reasons and owns an iPad exclusively because the GP experience is so much better (it also let me fool around with FF, which I didn't really care for).
 
AvNavCom said:
Not sure I'd go that far. I can't speak to the Android tablet experience, nor the iPhone experience, but GP on my Pixel has historically been substantially jankier than on my iPad. I grant that some of that is likely due to form-factor and I think the most recent version of Android GP is actually much closer to the iPad in terms of functionality.

I say all this as a guy who has long disliked Apple products for a number of reasons and owns an iPad exclusively because the GP experience is so much better (it also let me fool around with FF, which I didn't really care for).
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I'm writing this on a pretty high end samsung tablet. Garmin pilot generally fails to start at least three times before it gets going. It doesn't crash as much as it used to. Garmin's only solution is to re-install. That fixes it for a few days. When i tell them that, they fall back on the "there's too many different Android implementations" excuse. It works when it works though. There's a few features missing vs the ios version, but not that I really need.

Recently fis-b weather hasn't been working on my iPad. I suppose I'll have to re-install that too.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Ten years ago, yeah. Now it's just something people repeat on the Internet.
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Perspective. I ran GP, FF, and iFly on an iPhone and Android (GP, iFly) table back in January, because I was challenged by a member here on everything I was missing out on using iFly with a GTN650 in the cockpit.

Well, there was no 2-way flight plan transfer since we don’t have a flightstream. My ultimate conclusion is that on iOS, GP and FF have achieved parity.

On android, GP has not ability to load a procedure to a flight plan, so even if we had a flightstream, I’d still need to be on @ppple to get full use.

With the military discount, I get 15 months of iFly for significantly less than 12 months of GP. I will admit the GP UI is more refined than iFly, but GP doesn’t offer a web-based tool for flight planning and sync w/EFB like you get with FF and iFly.
 
EdFred said:
Garmin nav database for my 430W is over $200 cheaper/yr than Jepp. Wish I would have known this sooner than YESTERDAY

/adamsandler
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My biggest gripe with avidyne. No other options but Jepp
 
TCABM said:
Perspective. I ran GP, FF, and iFly on an iPhone and Android (GP, iFly) table back in January, because I was challenged by a member here on everything I was missing out on using iFly with a GTN650 in the cockpit.

Well, there was no 2-way flight plan transfer since we don’t have a flightstream. My ultimate conclusion is that on iOS, GP and FF have achieved parity.

On android, GP has not ability to load a procedure to a flight plan, so even if we had a flightstream, I’d still need to be on @ppple to get full use.

With the military discount, I get 15 months of iFly for significantly less than 12 months of GP. I will admit the GP UI is more refined than iFly, but GP doesn’t offer a web-based tool for flight planning and sync w/EFB like you get with FF and iFly.
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I really liked iFly. The thing that killed it for me was buying an all Garmin plane and iFly's inability to accept ADSB data from Garmin sources. They had been saying for years they were going to do it, but never did. I haven't checked recently...I assume they still can't?

Turns out that now I'd say database concierge is the "killer app" that would keep me with pilot. Pretty convenient to not have to track the database cycle and remember to take a card to the airport. It just takes care of itself.
 
Jim K said:
I really liked iFly. The thing that killed it for me was buying an all Garmin plane and iFly's inability to accept ADSB data from Garmin sources. They had been saying for years they were going to do it, but never did. I haven't checked recently...I assume they still can't?
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Still can’t. I don’t think G is going to share their ADS-B schema w/iFly; the only begrudgingly did it for ForeFlight.
 
I was on GP for several years. I could never find an Android tablet that ran worth a damn. Eventually bought an iPad mini. But my android phones ran GP just as well as the mini.

Finally ditched GP when a firmware update bricked my GDL-50 and Garmin just shrugged.

5 years ago I switched to iFly and built a Stratus. I complain about that combo because iFly froze up on me in the air twice, once in a tense situation. But that was 3 years ago and I have not had problems since.

Recently I came close to switching back to GP because I wanted an Aera. Garmin portables play poorly with non-G devices, so there really wasn't a viable option to going GP and buying another GDL.

Changed my mind yesterday when I figured out how to push serial GPS from my iFly on Android using a $25 Bluetooth adapter. Now I have what I wanted Aera to do: display Nav data on my AV-30's and EDM. iFly FTW.

FF has never been an option because iPhone is not an option. My business is totally immersed in the Google Enterprise platform.
 
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bflynn said:
Not saying it would be effortless, but the basic functionality of a gps position on a moving map is probably something that Grok could write in seconds with the correct description. I’d expect some competition to come out of this because FF passed what most pilots need years ago.
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There are already plenty of good alternatives to FF out there. iFly is one of them. FF is dominant not because it is insanely better or less expensive, but because ubiquity breeds ubiquity.
 
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yeah, oddly GP works fine on every cheapo android phone I've had. It seems to be a different app though. Or at least a different UI.
 
Private equity only cares about profit. So we will probably see price increase and less quality.
 
Jim K said:
yeah, oddly GP works fine on every cheapo android phone I've had. It seems to be a different app though. Or at least a different UI.
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I think the wide variety of screen sizes and aspect ratios on Android tablets throws GP for a loop. I don't know the underlying API, but I suspect the size options for Android phones are more standardized.

I've got the GP demo on my pixel phone right now. It runs just fine.

I kept my old pixel phone as a dedicated nav device. I leave it mounted in the plane. I do my planning on my new phone, then carry it as a backup in flight.
 
Since 2010, [Garmin] has been legally incorporated in Schaffhausen, Switzerland
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For those who think this move places Garmin as a better choice, I'm curious what the argument is that holds a Kansas company which found reason to decamp for Switzerland is somehow LESS profit-motivated than private equity ownership. :confused2:
 
Every business is driven by profit. Anyone who thinks otherwise has never owned or run a business.

That's not a bad thing. Profit drives companies to make better products and/or sell at better prices than their competitors, because that is the only way to win in the market.

Private equity is no more inherently bad or good than any other ownership scheme. Where PE breaks down is the new owners tend to lack the specific market experience of previous owners, and they lack the public corporate governance to constrain them from doing dumb stuff. So as often as not, they screw it up.
 
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Couldnt disagree more. Private equity is and always has been a mechanism for stripping companies of their value, screwing over the other stakeholders and cashing out and leaving wreckage. (and rigging the system so u only pay carried interest taxes.) capitalism is good when it motivates innovation and improvements thru the profit motive. but its all runaway monopolies which have no government regulation and exist to screw the captive customer. u tell me what possible justification there is for having to own six different chargers and adapters to charge your apple product except pure unfettered greed. Of course i don’t condone luigi mangiones actions but most of us can empathize with the rage that drove him over the edge.
 
DJTorrente said:
For those who think this move places Garmin as a better choice, I'm curious what the argument is that holds a Kansas company which found reason to decamp for Switzerland is somehow LESS profit-motivated than private equity ownership. :confused2:
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Formerly a Cayman corp. It’s a Swiss corp but aviation customer support is in the US. I really don’t think there’s a very big Swiss footprint, maybe30-35 people. Jeppesen has 3 large European office for many years, before Boeing bought them. And it’s why Jeppesen and FFwere rolled into the new company Boeing Global Services, marketing to the world, not just the US.
 
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Llewtrah381 said:
The other benefit to me of Avare is that it takes ADS-B from non-Garmin sources.
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Many EFBs do this. I use Stratux for ADS-B in and it work's fine. I live near-ish ATL and I have Stratux running 24/7 just to see whats overhead.

FF has massive vendor tie in, which is great if you want to be locked in to one vendor.
 
172andyou said:
Oh, my sweet summer child...
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Without profit there is no tomorrow for a business. In the few short years I owned an ISP the technology went from 33.6/X2/K.Flex/V.90/cable modem.

Without profit you are not advancing. Most sole props are great SME's, but horrible at business. Myself included. I think back at how many stupid business decision I made running my business. Bringing in outside help like PE or VC is great way get that business leadership... until it isn't.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Every business is driven by profit. Anyone who thinks otherwise has never owned or run a business.

That's not a bad thing. Profit drives companies to make better products and/or sell at better prices than their competitors, because that is the only way to win in the market.

Private equity is no more inherently bad or good than any other ownership scheme. Where PE breaks down is the new owners tend to lack the specific market experience of previous owners, and they lack the public corporate governance to constrain them from doing dumb stuff. So as often as not, they screw it up.
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Only when they aren't in a monopoly/oligopoly.

Look at FedEx And UPS. Neither one of them are really trying to outdo the other. UPS announces in December that they are raising rates by 5%. 1 week later FedEx announces the same thing. Why would they keep their prices down/ It's a free 5% bump in revenue.

Now, when you have 20 options, yes, absolutely that happens. But not when you can count the number of competitors on 1 hand.
 
EdFred said:
Only when they aren't in a monopoly/oligopoly.

Look at FedEx And UPS. Neither one of them are really trying to outdo the other. UPS announces in December that they are raising rates by 5%. 1 week later FedEx announces the same thing. Why would they keep their prices down/ It's a free 5% bump in revenue.

Now, when you have 20 options, yes, absolutely that happens. But not when you can count the number of competitors on 1 hand.
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What a terrible example. Package delivery is one of the most competitive markets in the world right now.

At least 3 competitors is generally considered the definition of a non-monopoly. In the US we have FedEx, UPS, USPS, and DHL. Not to mention Amazon and Walmart for drop shipping.

Why didn't they raise their prices 30%?
 
pfarber said:
Many EFBs do this. I use Stratux for ADS-B in and it work's fine. I live near-ish ATL and I have Stratux running 24/7 just to see whats overhead.

FF has massive vendor tie in, which is great if you want to be locked in to one vendor.
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ADS-B and GPS signals are not vendor-specific. As lot of us use Stratux, the specs are open to the public. GPS signals are more complex (and include very sophisticated encryption) but still available.
 
DJTorrente said:
For those who think this move places Garmin as a better choice, I'm curious what the argument is that holds a Kansas company which found reason to decamp for Switzerland is somehow LESS profit-motivated than private equity ownership. :confused2:
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I don't think the problem is profit motivation; it's the method and timelines. Specifically, Garmin presumably has a long-term business plan and an interest in a sustainable model over time. Sure, they're caught in the same numbers-must-go-up-every-quarter trap in which every public enterprise has been trapped since the Supremes ruled that increasing shareholder profits is the primary responsibility of every business, but they at least have motivation to reinvest some of those profits in new and improved products to maintain and increase market share.

In contrast, PE (at least my understanding of it) tends to have a very, very short-term perspective, seeking to maximize near-future profit potential with little thought to long-term sustainability. This manifests as rapid price increases, gutting of personnel, focus on short-term productivity at the expense of long-term investments in people and equipment, and--in some cases--loading the business with new debt. The goal of PE seems invariably to be a sale or a bankruptcy following the extraction of maximum value.
 
wellknow said:
Couldnt disagree more. Private equity is and always has been a mechanism for stripping companies of their value, screwing over the other stakeholders and cashing out and leaving wreckage. (and rigging the system so u only pay carried interest taxes.) capitalism is good when it motivates innovation and improvements thru the profit motive. but its all runaway monopolies which have no government regulation and exist to screw the captive customer. u tell me what possible justification there is for having to own six different chargers and adapters to charge your apple product except pure unfettered greed. Of course i don’t condone luigi mangiones actions but most of us can empathize with the rage that drove him over the edge.
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Do you have any personal experience running a business and making business decisions, or did you get all that from the OWS website?

Take the charger example. Do you really think the change from lightning to USB-C was an insidious plot by Apple to sell more 5 dollar cables? If so, that's hilarious.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Take the charger example. Do you really think the change from lightning to USB-C was an insidious plot by Apple to sell more 5 dollar cables? If so, that's hilarious.
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No, EU law in 2022 forced Apple into adopting a USB standard charge/communication port instead of forcing customers to buy expensive proprietary charge cables.
 
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