Foreflight pre-departure clearance - is there a cheaper way?

[MarkH]

I need to renew Foreflight and I am considering upgrading to Performance Plus, but before I do I want to see if it's most appealing feature is available in any cheaper offering.

Is there any way to get IFR clearance in text for cheaper than Foreflight?

I am starting IFR training and I feel like this could reduce workload, but I don't want to pay $100/year for it if I do not have to.

Just for reference, this is what I am talking about:
https://foreflight.com/products/pdc/

 

[NordicDave]

I'm a Pro Plus subscriber, and fairly underwhelmed with Performance Plus. Many of the features are not as capable as claimed. I upgraded and then quickly downgraded back to Pro Plus. Using FF for VFR flight plan filing is spotty. About half the time VFR flight plans filed through FF, never make it to flight services. In two different flight services conservations, both reps confirmed this to be true. They handle a lot of calls from pilots to close flight plans only to discover the plans are not in the system. I hope the IFR process is better and more reliable.

Edit: Leidos flight service

 

[GeorgeC]

Maybe Leidos Flight Service?

 

[RussR]

Do you fly, or plan to fly, at one of the 70 major airports that PDC works at?

https://foreflight.com/support/pdc/#airports

If not, there is no benefit to this feature.

 

[NordicDave]

FF 3D view on approach to KSQL:

Google Earth approach to KSQL:

It's like FF is using the autogenerated visuals from X-Plane or something. Their best demo's show mountain passes when the auto generated trees and shrubs look more complete, but they don't have major landmarks.

Point being, I like FF just seem the latest upper tier capabilities are works in progress.

 

[NordicDave]

Do you fly, or plan to fly, at one of the 70 major airports that PDC works at?

https://foreflight.com/support/pdc/#airports

If not, there is no benefit to this feature.

Also must have a Satcom Direct subscription and can only get PDC clearance once every 18 hours per airport. Really seems Performance plus is focused at the Jet level.

 

[benyflyguy]

I'm a Pro Plus subscriber, and fairly underwhelmed with Performance Plus. Many of the features are not as capable as claimed. I upgraded and then quickly downgraded back to Pro Plus. Using FF for VFR flight plan filing is spotty. About half the time VFR flight plans filed through FF, never make it to flight services. In two different flight services conservations, both reps confirmed this to be true. They handle a lot of calls from pilots to close flight plans only to discover the plans are not in the system. I hope the IFR process is better and more reliable.

Edit: Leidos flight service

I have never had problems with IFR flight plan filing. They usually have it and will amend if necessary. Only time it doesn’t work is flying into DC3 airports. They have to be called in.

 

[Fancy]

Is there any way to get IFR clearance in text for cheaper than Foreflight?

Yeah, use a radio and write it down.

Seriously though, I dropped FF long ago in favor of fltplango. Doesn't have the gucchi features of FF but as far as Maps, filing, and approach plates...its money. And its free.

 

[murphey]

Gotta remember, Boeing really doesn't care much about GA. It's a tiny revenue stream, but if it went away, very few, if any, in Chicago would notice or even care.

Hence the rename of Jeppesen to Boeing Global Services. The market is the global jet world, not GA in US/Canada.
Hence the purchase of ForeFlight and the increased emphasis and development for the high end version.
Hence the many "purges" at Jeppesen over the past 10 years...who retired or got laid off? Mostly GA people.

 

[James331]

Flight aware?

Often it’ll show your routing if you’re not N number blocked

 

[MarkH]

Yeah, use a radio and write it down.

Seriously though, I dropped FF long ago in favor of fltplango. Doesn't have the gucchi features of FF but as far as Maps, filing, and approach plates...its money. And its free.

I plan on stepping away from FF once I finish my training, but all of the CFIs I have worked with use FF. For now, I am hoping to avoid learning a new app, while learning to fly the plane IFR.

Thanks everyone for the input. I overlooked that it was limited to airports that I go out of my way to avoid (I don't like high fuel prices), and I had no idea that the other features of Pro Plus were so lackluster. Thanks for saving me $100.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I need to renew Foreflight and I am considering upgrading to Performance Plus, but before I do I want to see if it's most appealing feature is available in any cheaper offering.

Is there any way to get IFR clearance in text for cheaper than Foreflight?

I am starting IFR training and I feel like this could reduce workload, but I don't want to pay $100/year for it if I do not have to.

Just for reference, this is what I am talking about:
https://foreflight.com/products/pdc/

Be sure you know what you think you're getting. PDC is only available at 70 airports nationwide:

Do you fly, or plan to fly, at one of the 70 major airports that PDC works at?

https://foreflight.com/support/pdc/#airports

If not, there is no benefit to this feature.

This. I use PDC all the time in the TBM because it's available at our home base, but I rarely use it elsewhere and did not register the Mooney for it because if you do register for PDC, every pilot who flies that airplane must also use PDC.

Also must have a Satcom Direct subscription and can only get PDC clearance once every 18 hours per airport. Really seems Performance plus is focused at the Jet level.

Satcom Direct is just who ForeFlight works through for PDC. You don't need an additional subscription to Satcom Direct, just your ForeFlight subscription. The one clearance per plane per airport per 18 hours thing is a limitation of the PDC system.

As for Performance Plus, I would agree that unless you're flying something with turbos or Jet-A powered, it's probably overkill. There are some cool features that would be useful for anyone, but they're certainly not things I would consider requirements.

Gotta remember, Boeing really doesn't care much about GA. It's a tiny revenue stream, but if it went away, very few, if any, in Chicago would notice or even care.

The people in Chicago don't notice much...

But ForeFlight is probably a bigger revenue stream than you think. They work with the military and a fair bit of commercial aviation as well. It's not ever going to rise to the level of Boeing's airliners or defense contracts, but it's not a throwaway.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Thanks everyone for the input. I overlooked that it was limited to airports that I go out of my way to avoid (I don't like high fuel prices), and I had no idea that the other features of Pro Plus were so lackluster. Thanks for saving me $100.

For clarity's sake, it's Performance Plus that you probably don't need. If you're going to be flying IFR, IMO the Pro Plus (the middle plan) is worth it.

 

[James331]

I plan on stepping away from FF once I finish my training, but all of the CFIs I have worked with use FF. For now, I am hoping to avoid learning a new app, while learning to fly the plane IFR.

Thanks everyone for the input. I overlooked that it was limited to airports that I go out of my way to avoid (I don't like high fuel prices), and I had no idea that the other features of Pro Plus were so lackluster. Thanks for saving me $100.

FF is the industry standard it is for a reason.

Personally I use FF pro plus (I like the log book) and that’s golden, I’ve used it working single pilot IFR in some nasty weather as well as backcountry.

Writing down a clearance, once you learn to just write it with a pen and paper and as it’s read, isn’t a big deal.

 

[Dave Arata]

For clarity's sake, it's Performance Plus that you probably don't need. If you're going to be flying IFR, IMO the Pro Plus (the middle plan) is worth it.

Agreed. As a newly minted instrument pilot, I really do like the georeferenced approach plates. While obviously not necessary, it does add situational awareness.

 

[NordicDave]

Satcom Direct is just who ForeFlight works through for PDC. You don't need an additional subscription to Satcom Direct, just your ForeFlight subscription. The one clearance per plane per airport per 18 hours thing is a limitation of the PDC system.

Thank you for clarifying. Appreciate the extra knowledge.

 

[MarkH]

For clarity's sake, it's Performance Plus that you probably don't need. If you're going to be flying IFR, IMO the Pro Plus (the middle plan) is worth it.

My mistake, I plan on getting the middle tier.

 

[murphey]

The people in Chicago don't notice much...

But ForeFlight is probably a bigger revenue stream than you think. They work with the military and a fair bit of commercial aviation as well. It's not ever going to rise to the level of Boeing's airliners or defense contracts, but it's not a throwaway.

Oh, I'm very familiar with the military and high end Part 91 customers. I'm talking about the little spam can side of GA. Note my original comment:
"'Hence the purchase of ForeFlight and the increased emphasis and development for the high end version."

I'm grandfathered on an early version of FF, and will never upgrade, no matter how many times the company tries to convince me the newer plans are so much better.

I'll be going to Garmin Pilot soon, with the new avionics. Not exactly looking forward to it after years of FF and WingX.

 

[steingar]

If you're really having trouble coughing up the 0.1 AMU for Foreflight, aviation might not be the most suitable activity for you.

 

[PaulS]

FF 3D view on approach to KSQL:

Google Earth approach to KSQL:

It's like FF is using the autogenerated visuals from X-Plane or something. Their best demo's show mountain passes when the auto generated trees and shrubs look more complete, but they don't have major landmarks.

Point being, I like FF just seem the latest upper tier capabilities are works in progress.

You are showing the enroute pics, if you click on the airport in the flight plan, you get a button, show 3d view, push that button and you get a better picture that can be aligned any way you like. Not perfect but still pretty damn good. I like it.

 

[sarangan]

If you're really having trouble coughing up the 0.1 AMU for Foreflight, aviation might not be the most suitable activity for you.

Its not just the cost of the subscription, but the iPad is also an expensive option and a burden (compared to androids). Paying for unnecessary features is a common theme in aviation. I've seen student pilots spend a lot of unnecessary money on flight bags, knee boards, sunglasses etc.. whereas something equally good could be obtained at a local Walmart store. I have been flying for 25 years. Trust me, there was life before foreflight.

 

[NordicDave]

You are showing the enroute pics, if you click on the airport in the flight plan, you get a button, show 3d view, push that button and you get a better picture that can be aligned any way you like. Not perfect but still pretty damn good. I like it.

Thanks for for the help.

 

[wayne]

I set-up my plane in FlightAware to send me emails for the flight plan. On a rare occasion I get something else, but generally it's what I get from Clearance. Now, it just has the path, but it preps me for what Clearance gives me.

I really wish WingX would catch back up on features. WingX and FF used to go back-and-forth on features, but that hasn't happened in years now.

 

[Mohamed Ahmed]

Using FF for VFR flight plan filing is spotty. About half the time VFR flight plans filed through FF, never make it to flight services.

Edit: Leidos flight service

I totally agree, filing VFR plan with ff never worked for me. I always use flight service sms and it always work great anywhere.


Thank you
Mohamed

 

[MBDiagMan]

I tried Garmin Pilot on a free subscription when buying my 345 and was just too familiar with FF. IT just wasn’t worth it to make the switch. Also it just didn’t seem to have all the features of FF. This was in early 2017 so I fully expect that it has more functionality now.

 

[James331]

You are showing the enroute pics, if you click on the airport in the flight plan, you get a button, show 3d view, push that button and you get a better picture that can be aligned any way you like. Not perfect but still pretty damn good. I like it.

View attachment 82517

Seems more whiz bang than real value, I mean it already has SV, which is kinda a gimmick already.

That should have been a free add on, but isn’t something I’d pay extra for IMO

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Oh, I'm very familiar with the military and high end Part 91 customers. I'm talking about the little spam can side of GA. Note my original comment:
"'Hence the purchase of ForeFlight and the increased emphasis and development for the high end version."

That was happening before the Boeing buyout though. And they're putting the splashiest new features on the high-end version so that they can get some people to move up, and to fulfill the needs of those who need those features, while paying for the extra development staff it took to make those features. Over time, some of them will trickle down to the lower plans. They did the same thing when they only had two subscription tiers.

I'll be going to Garmin Pilot soon, with the new avionics. Not exactly looking forward to it after years of FF and WingX.

No reason to switch away from ForeFlight just because you got new avionics - You'll have enough to learn! I've added Garmin Pilot to my iPad since our upgrade solely to handle the database updates on the Garmins. ForeFlight does everything else with your Garmin avionics that Garmin Pilot does - ADS-B traffic and weather from the GTX 345, sending flight plans back and forth to/from the GTN via the FlightStream 510, etc. And it's very nice to be able to do that with ForeFlight!

You'll have plenty of learning curve with the new avionics. No reason to make yourself learn a new EFB at the same time... Or ever.

I have been flying for 25 years. Trust me, there was life before foreflight.

The iPad+ForeFlight+ADS-B combo lets me complete a LOT more flights than I did before they existed, though, and it saves me money. And useful load, for that matter. The last big trip I took before the iPad, the charts/plates/AFDs for the one trip cost me $225 and filled two grocery bags. I do NOT miss that at all... I also don't miss having to call Flight Watch for weather updates and be told "there's a line of thunderstorms 20 miles north of some VOR you never heard of, moving east..." Yeah, that was pretty worthless compared to the abilities we have now. Flying is SO much more useful now that us little bugsmashers can get access to up-to-date weather info anywhere. ForeFlight was a game changer.

 

[John Collins]

I'm a Pro Plus subscriber, and fairly underwhelmed with Performance Plus. Many of the features are not as capable as claimed. I upgraded and then quickly downgraded back to Pro Plus. Using FF for VFR flight plan filing is spotty. About half the time VFR flight plans filed through FF, never make it to flight services. In two different flight services conservations, both reps confirmed this to be true. They handle a lot of calls from pilots to close flight plans only to discover the plans are not in the system. I hope the IFR process is better and more reliable.

Edit: Leidos flight service

Leidos has access to all the VFR flight plans filed by ForeFlight, as they are the only VFR processor for ForeFlight in the USA. What often causes an issue is the activation or close of the flight plan will not go thru from the device in the cockpit to the internet if a wifi device such as Stratus, Stratux, Sentry is connected at the time, even though there is a good cellular connection. The pilot does see an error message in this case. To activate or close the flight plan, make sure that wifi is not on. This is most easily controlled by using the Apple iOS control panel to temporarily turn off wifi, perform the activate or close, and then turn it back on to use the wifi connection to the ADS-B receiver in flight. If a flight plan is not activated thru the app or via radio/phone to FSS, Leidos will automatically discard the flight plan after two hours past the scheduled departure time. If you have questions, you can PM me.

 

[John Collins]

This. I use PDC all the time in the TBM because it's available at our home base, but I rarely use it elsewhere and did not register the Mooney for it because if you do register for PDC, every pilot who flies that airplane must also use PDC.

I registered both my ForeFlight call sign and my N number with PDC. I changed that to just the call sign. That way others could file using my N number if the wanted to.

 

[dans2992]

I wish they’d expand the list of PDC airports. Would seem that it could be a timesaver for everyone.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I registered both my ForeFlight call sign and my N number with PDC. I changed that to just the call sign. That way others could file using my N number if the wanted to.

I've been thinking about getting a callsign and doing exactly that. However, it's still pretty rare for me to visit a PDC airport with my own airplane - I'm based at KUES, which is not a PDC airport, though we still use MKE approach/departure... Is it possible to use PDC from a satellite airport to a PDC airport? (ie, UES/MKE)?

I wish they’d expand the list of PDC airports. Would seem that it could be a timesaver for everyone.

Definitely... There were some experiments with getting clearances electronically at an airport in Virginia a while back, but I don't know what came of that.

 

[John Collins]

I wish they’d expand the list of PDC airports. Would seem that it could be a timesaver for everyone.

The facility handling the PDC has to have the systems installed and needs facility training, as they are the ones who process the PDC. PDC was described by one FAA HQ person as a prototype system that never got past the test phase. It is only supported at 70+ airports by the FAA. It would be nice to be able to support it at more airports, even non towered airports.

 

[clarkmueller]

I’m based at an airport that has PDC, and it’s not uncommon that I fly to other airports that have it, so I thought it might be worth it to go Performance Plus and try it out. That was about a year ago, and it has definitely not been worth it.

I would guess that I probably flew at least 25 legs where I filed IFR during that time. I only remember two of those where I actually received the PDC text message. One at my home base, and one away from home. What isn’t so obvious about the system is that the controller still has to send you the PDC. So on one occasion I asked about why I never receive them, and that particular controller on that particular day commented that, “oh, I saw that you were a Centurion and I thought it was a mistake.” If you’re very much ahead of or behind your filed departure time, you also won’t be likely to get it.

I can definitely see the appeal for a new instrument pilot, but the truth is (at least by the time you complete the rating), copying and reading back an IFR clearance for a flight within range of a piston usually only takes about 30 seconds. Listening carefully and writing it down helps to internalize it. If you have any questions about the clearance, it’s very easy to ask the controller in the moment for clarification. And the whole conversation is recorded.

What I do find nice, however, is that you get D-ATIS with it as well. So if you are flying to airports that have D-ATIS (which I think is similar to if not the same as the list of PDC airports), that can certainly save some time. If you’re enroute and have cellular but not yet in range of your destination ATIS, it can be handy. ADS-B gives you the weather, but not the letter or most of the more interesting remarks. Not sure if this will be the reason I keep Performance Plus, but I do use it a lot.

 

[NordicDave]

Leidos has access to all the VFR flight plans filed by ForeFlight, as they are the only VFR processor for ForeFlight in the USA. What often causes an issue is the activation or close of the flight plan will not go thru from the device in the cockpit to the internet if a wifi device such as Stratus, Stratux, Sentry is connected at the time, even though there is a good cellular connection. The pilot does see an error message in this case. To activate or close the flight plan, make sure that wifi is not on. This is most easily controlled by using the Apple iOS control panel to temporarily turn off wifi, perform the activate or close, and then turn it back on to use the wifi connection to the ADS-B receiver in flight. If a flight plan is not activated thru the app or via radio/phone to FSS, Leidos will automatically discard the flight plan after two hours past the scheduled departure time. If you have questions, you can PM me.

Thanks John and that makes sense. In my last 2 instances, I was away from the plane when filing and on the Internet. Web access was working as was able to move my flight plan to the Map page and pack for the flight. Following this the flight plan was filed from ForeFlight. My only connection to ADS-B is bluetooth via a FS210 to my GTX-345. I have no wifi connections in the plane. Going forward will call Leidos to confirm.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I would guess that I probably flew at least 25 legs where I filed IFR during that time. I only remember two of those where I actually received the PDC text message. One at my home base, and one away from home. What isn’t so obvious about the system is that the controller still has to send you the PDC. So on one occasion I asked about why I never receive them, and that particular controller on that particular day commented that, “oh, I saw that you were a Centurion and I thought it was a mistake.”

Yeah, they do still have to send it. Maybe if you'd asked that question early on and had the controller pass the word that you really do have PDC, it would have worked better! We use PDC in the TBMs all the time, and the controllers send it every time without us asking. In fact, they get annoyed when we get a new plane and there's a lag of a few days before it gets registered in the system - They keep trying to send it, and they tell us on Clearance Delivery that they sent it, and send it again before we explain that it's not actually enabled yet.

What I do find nice, however, is that you get D-ATIS with it as well. So if you are flying to airports that have D-ATIS (which I think is similar to if not the same as the list of PDC airports), that can certainly save some time. If you’re enroute and have cellular but not yet in range of your destination ATIS, it can be handy. ADS-B gives you the weather, but not the letter or most of the more interesting remarks. Not sure if this will be the reason I keep Performance Plus, but I do use it a lot.

I sure wish we could get D-ATIS on the boxes in the cockpit. (ie, via ADS-B). I hate that infernal robotic voice on the frequency, it's annoying, difficult to understand and too slow.

 

[trenton]

WingX and FF used to go back-and-forth on features, but that hasn't happened in years now.

Maybe the Boeing oversight will slow FF's pace of innovation.

 

[John Collins]

Maybe the Boeing oversight will slow FF's pace of innovation.

ForeFlight releases updates on roughly a monthly velocity for the last few years. They used to release when a significant feature was being made available, now what is available for the monthly release and is tested is what that is released. The monthly velocity has not changed since the Boeing acquisition.

 

[John Collins]

Thanks John and that makes sense. In my last 2 instances, I was away from the plane when filing and on the Internet. Web access was working as was able to move my flight plan to the Map page and pack for the flight. Following this the flight plan was filed from ForeFlight. My only connection to ADS-B is bluetooth via a FS210 to my GTX-345. I have no wifi connections in the plane. Going forward will call Leidos to confirm.

If you PM me, I can research those two failures and find out what happened.

 

[Groundpounder]

I doubt we'll see any expansion of PDC with CPDLC becoming more and more prevalent.

 

[John Collins]

I would guess that I probably flew at least 25 legs where I filed IFR during that time. I only remember two of those where I actually received the PDC text message. One at my home base, and one away from home. What isn’t so obvious about the system is that the controller still has to send you the PDC. So on one occasion I asked about why I never receive them, and that particular controller on that particular day commented that, “oh, I saw that you were a Centurion and I thought it was a mistake.” If you’re very much ahead of or behind your filed departure time, you also won’t be likely to get it.

If you or anyone with a piston aircraft PM me with the details when you were at a PDC airport and did not receive PDC because the controller did not handle it as PDC, I can get that reported to the FAA. This is a training issue at the facility and I have gotten this corrected. I reported this as an issue at the last FAA Instrument Procedures Group meeting and have contacts that will help with these kind of issues. DFW is one of the airports that does not send PDC for piston aircraft. The more data I can get, the better.