Foreflight Failure In Flight

MBDiagMan

MBDiagMan

Final Approach
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NorthEast Texas
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Doc
I have read and posted in several threads recently regarding ded reckoning/pilotage as opposed to depending on a GPS.

My position in these discussions has generally been that I fly with Foreflight, but keep a chart at the ready.

Yesterday, I experienced Foreflight failure at a really bad time. I was underneath the second to the outer ring of the DFW Bravo airspace near an angled corner of one of the shelves. I was not on Flight Following at the time (another mistake) and I was headed toward a corner of the Bravo that would have put me inside.

Luckily I have made this trip several times and knew a chart landmark that was right at that corner. I concentrated on looking ahead and using a football field in the landmarked community to know where to fly to stay out of trouble.

When it quit on the IPad, it went back to the main screen and the Foreflight Icon was shaking and had an X inside. After a few seconds, the other two icons on the same screen were doing the same thing.

I rebooted the IPad and got it all back working okay, but by that time I was away from the edge of Bravo and could easily navigate the rest of my trip with finger on chart. The IPad and Foreflight worked fine for the rest of the trip which included a stop to meet a Cessna 140 buddy for a hamburger. I got weather updated at the hamburger stop and made it back to my home field way outside Bravo with no problems.

I might have had trouble with the IPad, but the chart was still working.
 
I do not consider iPad as primary or secondary nav, it's back up to secondary.
 
I had my first lockup today, but a friend was poking the screen and I think it got overloaded by the rapidity of the jabs and the requests to zoom in and out.
I exited the program, hit the mechanical button twice, press and hold the program icons at the bottom which are wiggling with x's to shut them down and restarted FF, probably took 15 seconds and I was back up.
200kts x 15 seconds = maybe a mile?
 
The wiggling (some with X) icons is the icon edit mode. I don't think it was related to the application crashing. Normally you start this by holding any icon down for a second or two.
 
That's never happened to me. Is this a recent occurrence, with the latest version perhaps? I've been using FF since it came out and used it on the original iPad, iPad2 and now the iPad3. I've had it quit on me, but I just restart it and all is well, no lockups requiring a hard reboot as has been described here.

Not that it would be a showstopper, as others have said I don't use it for primary nav.
 
That wasn't a foreflight failure. It was operator error. As Ron said, the wiggling icons is the indication that the iPad has been put into the mode that allows moving of the app icons and/or deletion of the apps. Glad you had enough situational awareness to keep you out of trouble.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnXoGnUU6uI
 
Mine is usually pretty solid once it is locked onto the gps puck thing. Sometimes it won't initially lock onto it. I have to shut down foreflight by holding the icon until it jiggles thing then hitting the red close button. Every time that I bring foreflight up again it will lock right on and be good from thereafter. I'm overall pretty happy with it. I have canceled my paper chart subscription.
 
It helps to really know how the iPad works. Two taps on the screen and you'd have been back in the app without needing to reboot.
 
IPad is my chart source. No issues in flight.
Using FF
 
I did my first WingX flight today, and I think I like the way it has extended runways with big numbers on the ends and the terrain that pops in with yellow and red if you are lower than surrounding dirt.
I was able to pop between FF and Wingx and utilize the best of both. between the two it is covering the things I like about Garmin's 296/495 that I have running.
Interestingly it took the two Garmin units quite a long time to lock in today and the Ipad with it's internal GPS was up right at boot. Confusing since the G495 locks in right away usually.

:devil:
Now I would really feel comfortable if the Loran was still working -- getting a little nervous only having 2 vors 2 garmins and Ipad ADF and paper charts.
:dunno:
:D:D :rofl::popcorn:
 
Now I would really feel comfortable if the Loran was still working -- getting a little nervous only having 2 vors 2 garmins and Ipad ADF and paper charts.
Click to expand...

Well, the Loran was a very functional nav tool which was completely independent of all other systems. I was sad to see that administration make thousands of wonderfully useful nav devices suddenly and permanently inop. If they keep getting rid of ndb's, and then vor's go, we will have all our eggs in one gps basket. I guess they needed that money for "more important things".
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Well, the Loran was a very functional nav tool which was completely independent of all other systems. I was sad to see that administration make thousands of wonderfully useful nav devices suddenly and permanently inop. If they keep getting rid of ndb's, and then vor's go, we will have all our eggs in one gps basket. I guess they needed that money for "more important things".
Click to expand...

Yup... there are tens of millions of illegal aliens to feed, give free medical, housing, legal services and free schooling etc... to..:mad2::mad2::confused:
 
Henning said:
I do not consider iPad as primary or secondary nav, it's back up to secondary.
Click to expand...


Well, I was considering the chart as primary and my knowing where I was on the chart and where I needed to go to stay out of the Bravo, I guess you could say that my primary worked.

I don't know what could be considered categories for navigation. I assume pilotage/ded reckoning would be a category, VOR's would be a category and GPS would be a category.

I bought a Garmin Pilot III, but it turned out to be so small, I haven't even put it in the plane yet. I can't afford a 430 or some such, so it appears it will be charts, clocks, VOR's, handheld GPS's and IPads for me.
 
flyingron said:
The wiggling (some with X) icons is the icon edit mode. I don't think it was related to the application crashing. Normally you start this by holding any icon down for a second or two.
Click to expand...


Thanks for the information. I tried to tap the Icon to no avail. What do you do to get out of this mode and back to your app?
 
jason said:
That wasn't a foreflight failure. It was operator error. As Ron said, the wiggling icons is the indication that the iPad has been put into the mode that allows moving of the app icons and/or deletion of the apps. Glad you had enough situational awareness to keep you out of trouble.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnXoGnUU6uI
Click to expand...


Thanks a bunch Jason!

The only thing I can imagine that caused it after reading here and watching the video is that my headset cord touched the screen, minimized the app and then touched an icon. If that is what happened, figure the odds.
 
Jaybird180 said:
IPad is my chart source. No issues in flight.
Using FF
Click to expand...


A hangar neighbor of mine has a CFI who is a bizjet pilot. This bizjet pilot told me that they just got FF in all their planes and no longer have paper. Maybe I'm just an old curmudgeon, but that sounds a little scary to me.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Well, the Loran was a very functional nav tool which was completely independent of all other systems. I was sad to see that administration make thousands of wonderfully useful nav devices suddenly and permanently inop. If they keep getting rid of ndb's, and then vor's go, we will have all our eggs in one gps basket. I guess they needed that money for "more important things".
Click to expand...


I'm sure those "things" are more important to "somebody." I wonder if there will ever be any blood on their hands due to such decisions.
 
Here's a tip: don't rely on equipment you don't know how to operate 100%.
 
Captain said:
Here's a tip: don't rely on equipment you don't know how to operate 100%.
Click to expand...


I didn't. Knowing the area, knowing where I was at the time, being on the correct heading and having chart at hand is why I was able to fly my way out of the situation without penetrating Bravo or any other problems. FF is a convenience for me, not a necessity.
 
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flyingron said:
Push the big round button at the bottom.
Click to expand...


Well that button is on the side the way I use it, but pushing it did NOT bring the application back up. The rectangle button on the side (would have been at the top in your orientation) allowed me to reboot and it worked. As I said in the OP, that got it back on the air and it acquired position immediately and worked flawlessly thereafter.
 
MBDiagMan said:
A hangar neighbor of mine has a CFI who is a bizjet pilot. This bizjet pilot told me that they just got FF in all their planes and no longer have paper. Maybe I'm just an old curmudgeon, but that sounds a little scary to me.
Click to expand...


My understanding from talking with a friend who flies charter is that they can eliminate paper only if they have TWO iPads.
 
Gubbins said:
My understanding from talking with a friend who flies charter is that they can eliminate paper only if they have TWO iPads.
Click to expand...
The FAA guidance for Part 91 ops recommends a back-up. The FAA guidance for Part 135 and 121 requires a backup. The backup can be also electronic. (I buy a 1-month subscription of an Android-based efb for my phone as a backup when I do a cross country out of my "local" area.)

Part 91 Guidance: http://tinyurl.com/3pcug22
Part 135 and 121 Guidance: http://tinyurl.com/494lcn7
 
Gubbins said:
My understanding from talking with a friend who flies charter is that they can eliminate paper only if they have TWO iPads.
Click to expand...


That makes sense and that is probably the situation for this guy. I know that he flies with a co-pilot.
 
patrick wentworth said:
I did my first WingX flight today, and I think I like the way it has extended runways with big numbers on the ends and the terrain that pops in with yellow and red if you are lower than surrounding dirt.
Click to expand...


WingX terrain is a very nice feature - it's why I use it over FF.

+1 on the extended runways as well.
 
My company is in the process right now of getting iPads approved. We have to have two iPads, each one must be at least 30% battery, and the cabin inverter may not be deferred (ie, the outlets work). We also have to use a leg strap and can't charge it during critical phases of flight. For some reason our POI won't let us display our 'ship position' with an airplane symbol. They feel our pilots might try to navigate based on the iPad. So a dot or car or pizza symbol is okay...anything but an airplane makes it safe.

FAA...go figure.
 
Hmm, I guess I need to replace the cute little blue high wing with a blue dot. I don't want to be unsafe.:lol:
 
MBDiagMan said:
Well that button is on the side the way I use it, but pushing it did NOT bring the application back up. The rectangle button on the side (would have been at the top in your orientation) allowed me to reboot and it worked. As I said in the OP, that got it back on the air and it acquired position immediately and worked flawlessly thereafter.
Click to expand...

Pushing the button on the front (home button) won't bring the application back, but it will stop the application icons from wiggling with the "x." At that point, you can tap on the application icon to bring it back.

I've had ForeFlight crash very rarely, but in every case I have been able to bring it back within a few seconds. Never needed a reboot of the iPad.

By the way, to my knowledge, the only way to get to the "wiggling icon" screen is to tap and hold an application icon. A crashed application will not put you there.


JKG
 
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MBDiagMan said:
Thanks for the information. I tried to tap the Icon to no avail. What do you do to get out of this mode and back to your app?
Click to expand...

You have to get the little red x so that the foreflight icon disappears then press the physical button to get the jiggling to stop. Then just press the foreflight icon again to get it to start again.
 
Henning said:
I do not consider iPad as primary or secondary nav, it's back up to secondary.
Click to expand...

On my recent cross country I had a sectional, a TAC, an iPad, a panel GPS, the passenger had his aviation GPS handheld, and both our phones have GPS. Didn't look at anything (just flew the coast) until I glanced at the iPad wondering when to turn inland for my destination. Once I turned inland I simply looked for the airport. Going home, I got a heading before takeoff, planned an altitude higher since it was night, and just got up to 5500, flew roughly that heading give or take a 10 degrees, then flew home. So I had lots of tools on board, referenece iPad, but had others at the ready. And I made an appointment to learn how to use the darned panel Garmin. I really should learn, geez.
 
MBDiagMan said:
A hangar neighbor of mine has a CFI who is a bizjet pilot. This bizjet pilot told me that they just got FF in all their planes and no longer have paper. Maybe I'm just an old curmudgeon, but that sounds a little scary to me.
Click to expand...

So terrifying that United Airlines did it...

http://m.prnewswire.com/news-releas...aperless-flight-deck-with-ipad-128240343.html

And the USAF...

http://mobile.informationweek.com/80256/show/3a14a26cd98ea4416f107f6225718f6d/

Don't be scared. ;)
 
Henning said:
Garmin has tutorials and simulators for download on their website. You'll work it out eventually.
Click to expand...

I know, I know, I even got a video from them (for the one in the 150). Haven't watched it yet, looks super lame and boring.
 
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