For those keeping count

charheep

charheep

Cleared for Takeoff
Joined
Feb 5, 2013
Messages
1,422
Location
Aurora, IL
Display Name
Display name:
charheep
So far, in my plane buying struggles-

2 planes had extremely old unresolved liens
1 plane failed pre-buy (wouldnt even start)
2 owners backed out of selling after accepting an offer. One owner did this 3 times..
1 owner stopped returned my emails and texts completely, after sending him a signed contract with a price we agreed on together.
2 planes had missing logs, even after the point blank question and affirmative response of "complete logs?"
3 sellers (brokers) wanted about 15k too much. Even after showing them valid and reasonable evaluations, they wouldnt really budge. Those planes are still for sale today at basically the same high price, but now have sat for over a year. Planes get more or less expensive when sitting??
2 planes priced a little high based on the ad. As we dug into the logs, pictures and calls, the truth comes out, and they finally agree its not worth what they priced it at, and were willing to accept almost 50% off the ad price just to sell. I dont want a bargain basement handyman special plane.

Not to mention the numerous dredges that brokers (mainly) are trying to pass off as decent planes.

Here is a thought, you list and price a plane honestly and fairly, and I will pay you an honest and fair price. Even would be willing to pay above a honest and fair price. Missing logs, holes in the wings, havent started in a year and wont start, dont really want to sell, or hasnt had an annual in 3 years, then put that into the ad and price accordingly. Yes, all those have happened to me on separate planes.

This is brought about by doing a title search on the latest victim plane and finding a huge lien from 1959 against it. Everyone is hopeful it will be fixed, it will just take time. Me? Not so hopeful based on past performance.

I feel bad for the guy I have hired to help me. He charged me a flat fee to find me a plane and help me through the purchase. I dont think he knew of my bad luck and horrible timing.

I have the money ready, I have a guy that will call you within a day or less to start the conversation, I can hire a guy to do a pre-buy once the contract is signed, I am a valid eager customer. What am I missing?

/Rant off
 
What are you missing? I'd say nothing. You're being thorough and doing your due dilegence. Good for you. You'll find one eventually but I understand the frustration.
 
From your luck I may want to make sure your never in a plane with me :p
 
My experience is pretty close to that.
  • Log review showed double the hours advertised on the plane (the broker ignored the tach swap and continued to after I pointed it out to him after reviewing the logs)
  • Two planes failed pre-buy (at about $1K each out of my pocket) and one was 500 miles away (wrinkled wings that he had no idea about...)
  • Lots and lots of planes with undisclosed damage history (oh really, I had no idea...)
  • I have run into missing logs at least twice, even though I have asked the question directly over the phone
  • Many planes that had been sitting for years and brokers weren't disclosing, but a log review made it obvious
There is a lot of old junk out there and a lot of people trying to pass it off. It is amazing what 20 minutes with the logs will get you.
 
If you are looking for a cherry plane at market price, you will have a lot of frustration.

Good luck,

Tim
 
tspear said:
If you are looking for a cherry plane at market price, you will have a lot of frustration.

Good luck,

Tim
Click to expand...
I was willing to pay a fair/premium price. The absolute dishonesty is what blows me away. You spend time and money traveling to see a plane (good luck getting scanned logs on these older planes) and when you get there, you find out the plane was completely misrepresented. Buyer beware definitely applies to airplanes. When I sold my Cherokee, I was completely honest. It was also well maintained (like my life depended on it, go figure). On the pre-buys, it amazed me how much deferred maintenance there was. The first one fell out because there were cracks in the wing walk (and a bunch of other deferred stuff). My mechanic said the cracks were an airworthy item and the seller disputed that and apparently already knew about the issue. The second one fell out because the top wing skins were actually wrinkled (you could visibly see it) from a hard landing or turbulence or something. Again, tons of deferred maintenance. Everybody wants top dollar, so there is no way to tell by the asking price.
 
You think it is bad trying to buy a plane, try selling one! Hundreds of pictures e-mailed, all the time scanning logs, trying to coordinate schedules for inspections and test flights, hundreds of unanswered e-mails. People saying they are interested and then never showing up, offers that are 25% of asking price, nitpicking every little thing as justification for low ball offers. The madness goes both ways!
 
Grum.Man said:
You think it is bad trying to buy a plane, try selling one! Hundreds of pictures e-mailed, all the time scanning logs, trying to coordinate schedules for inspections and test flights, hundreds of unanswered e-mails. People saying they are interested and then never showing up, offers that are 25% of asking price, nitpicking every little thing as justification for low ball offers. The madness goes both ways!
Click to expand...

Probably even more frustrating I'd say.
 
On a positive note you will eventually find your perfect plane or the buyer for your plane. It just takes commitment and patience.
 
charheep said:
So far, in my plane buying struggles-

2 planes had extremely old unresolved liens
1 plane failed pre-buy (wouldnt even start)
2 owners backed out of selling after accepting an offer. One owner did this 3 times..
1 owner stopped returned my emails and texts completely, after sending him a signed contract with a price we agreed on together.
2 planes had missing logs, even after the point blank question and affirmative response of "complete logs?"
3 sellers (brokers) wanted about 15k too much. Even after showing them valid and reasonable evaluations, they wouldnt really budge. Those planes are still for sale today at basically the same high price, but now have sat for over a year. Planes get more or less expensive when sitting??
2 planes priced a little high based on the ad. As we dug into the logs, pictures and calls, the truth comes out, and they finally agree its not worth what they priced it at, and were willing to accept almost 50% off the ad price just to sell. I dont want a bargain basement handyman special plane.

Not to mention the numerous dredges that brokers (mainly) are trying to pass off as decent planes.

Here is a thought, you list and price a plane honestly and fairly, and I will pay you an honest and fair price. Even would be willing to pay above a honest and fair price. Missing logs, holes in the wings, havent started in a year and wont start, dont really want to sell, or hasnt had an annual in 3 years, then put that into the ad and price accordingly. Yes, all those have happened to me on separate planes.

This is brought about by doing a title search on the latest victim plane and finding a huge lien from 1959 against it. Everyone is hopeful it will be fixed, it will just take time. Me? Not so hopeful based on past performance.

I feel bad for the guy I have hired to help me. He charged me a flat fee to find me a plane and help me through the purchase. I dont think he knew of my bad luck and horrible timing.

I have the money ready, I have a guy that will call you within a day or less to start the conversation, I can hire a guy to do a pre-buy once the contract is signed, I am a valid eager customer. What am I missing?

/Rant off
Click to expand...
What are you looking for?
 
Grum.Man said:
You think it is bad trying to buy a plane, try selling one! Hundreds of pictures e-mailed, all the time scanning logs, trying to coordinate schedules for inspections and test flights, hundreds of unanswered e-mails. People saying they are interested and then never showing up, offers that are 25% of asking price, nitpicking every little thing as justification for low ball offers. The madness goes both ways!
Click to expand...

c'mon, I wasn't that bad!
 
Sounds like we have an answer for the "why do people buy new airplanes" thread -- flaky sellers.
 
tspear said:
If you are looking for a cherry plane at market price, you will have a lot of frustration.

Good luck,

Tim
Click to expand...

Agreed. My observation is that many of the problems associated with purchasing an airplane go away when you have cash and are willing to buy an airplane that is near top of its market. Trying to buy at the bottom or lower end of the middle of the market will often cause problems similar to what the OP is experiencing.

Grum.Man said:
You think it is bad trying to buy a plane, try selling one! Hundreds of pictures e-mailed, all the time scanning logs, trying to coordinate schedules for inspections and test flights, hundreds of unanswered e-mails. People saying they are interested and then never showing up, offers that are 25% of asking price, nitpicking every little thing as justification for low ball offers. The madness goes both ways!
Click to expand...

My experience has been that there are many dreamers and very few qualified airplane buyers. Especially with the cheap airplanes. Unfortunately, many of those dreamers don't have any problems wasting your time.
 
I'm a bad boy.
I will, if given the opportunity, mess with sellers.
Case in point: A totally clapped out Aeronca I looked at this summer.
I drove a couple of hours to look at it, climbed all over it, even though it looked like a puddle of yellow vomit, and failed the "log book test" (missing logs), and the "fabric test" (I drummed on the fuselage with my fingers and poked a hole in it), and a bunch of other things that totally disqualified the plane from flying, ever.
When I was done I told him I'd pay full asking and $1000.00 more than the asking if need be, to get the plane. I'd send him a check as soon as I got home.
By the time I got home there was a message on my machine. He had decided not to sell.
A month later, I see the same plane for sale again. Only he wants $10,000.00 more for it.
I'll wait a couple more months and call him to see if he has any takers.
 
I've been around several airplane deals (usually I'm the guy sent to fly it home). There hasn't been a single one that lived up to the ad for it.

One was a Cessna Cardinal RG that had the past few annuals at a reputable Cessna shop. It was a flying bomb (fuel leaks and electrical problems). The amount of "deferred maintenance" from a shop with a reputation was a real eye opener. That plane required $11k of 2002 money to bring into conformance.

To be fair the rest have been good planes, just not what was advertised. I've had nose wheel struts go flat, turn coordinators stop working because of poor wiring connections, vacuum pump failure - actually all on one plane. That plane was still a good deal though because it had a fantastic panel with HSI and IFR certified GPS.

I bought a plane after looking at ads and dreaming (but not wasting seller's time). As I got closer to having the cash on hand I inquired about a few. I was in the market for an old tail dragger but kept my options open.

One seller had an engine that didn't belong on the plane. One turned out to have been sitting 15 years (not mentioned in the ad). That plane might have been a good deal anyway but the travel time to look it over made that a real gamble.

I decided I would rather pay more for a plane that is closer if it saves me multiple trips to look at it, inspect it and ferry it home. In the end I realized what I really wanted was a plane that belonged to a long term friend of mine, even though it wasn't officially for sale.

I've had the plane since May and it has been zero squawks all the way.
 
rpadula said:
Sounds like we have an answer for the "why do people buy new airplanes" thread -- flaky sellers.
Click to expand...

I would absolutely have bought a new plane if I could have to simply avoid the mess that is trying to buy a plane... but the budget didn't allow that.

On the other hand, all my cars except 1 have been purchased new. The one that wasn't was still bought from a dealer as a beater commuter so I didn't much care as I planned to drive it into the ground and it worked fine for that.
 
chartbundle said:
I would absolutely have bought a new plane if I could have to simply avoid the mess that is trying to buy a plane... but the budget didn't allow that.
Click to expand...

Who's to say that manufacturers haven't engaged in sketchy sales practices ;)
 
I am searching for that 'special plane' now too.
(@Grum.Man followed my investigation of the Questair Venture which I love...but cannot make work right now)

I am on Lancairs now.
-one was advertised as "shows like new" interior and paint, etc but when I spent $1500 for airline travel/car/hotel to see it, I decided it was not like new in any regard, and was in a corrosive environment, not flown much ie a dozen hours in the last 2 years (not revealed til I arrived), despite a 20K reduction in price, I had to decline because I knew the engine was likely a ticking amu time bomb, not to mention the messy interior and exterior problems.
-another, I was offered 60K off if I bought it Right Now. Hmmm.
-one was absolutely drool-worthy beautiful but I ruled out because of inside info on build quality.
-another, the owner said he had to change the ad to indicate it was a 1/10 on P&I because people had traveled to see it and it was nothing like advertised originally.
-another said in the ad, "40 since OH". I'm not sure what the consensus is on the meaning of that phrase but I found, by investigating the logs, that it had never had the bottom end onerhauled but did have a cylinder change 40hrs ago; Overhauled, not new cylinders were put on an engine with over 1000 hours and the bottom end had been apart, three times for various reasons but only repaired, never overhauled.
I know when I am selling a plane I will have stories from 'the other side'.
 
It all sounds familiar. Took me almost a year to find the right one when I bought my last airplane. The ones who list, but really don't want to sell (even though they aren't flying it either) are the worst. Unbelievable how many time wasters of that sort are out there.

Do, in reverse, what good sales people are taught. In this case learn to qualify the seller up front.

[edit added: One thing I started doing is pick a city not too far away from the prospective plane's home base; typically not much more than an hour flight. During the first phone inquiry I'll tell the seller I plan to do the pre-purchase at xxxxx in that city and I will pay his fuel to ferry it there for me. The guys who really do not want to sell almost always balk at that. Weeds most of them out before wasting more time on them]
 
Last edited:
Wow- didn't have anywhere near these issues either time I bought an airplane.

First one was obviously a flying project. Turned into a bit more of a project than I figured, but was still airworthy from day one.

Second one was how I might do the next one: get to know a little about the owner before he/she sells. Basically buy one you have ridden in before and thought "nice airplane".

As for the logs - I've yet to buy an airplane younger than I am- and the logs were "complete". But I'm not quite sure everything was logged.

But, yea. There is a lot of really bad expectations out there.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
...I am on Lancairs now...
Click to expand...

Seems like a great choice; I am assuming you are looking at two seaters, not a IVP or Evolution. :D
- faster on less fuel;
- likely a newer, lower time airframe;
- good looking on the ramp, just like a nice Viking;
- cheaper to maintain as an E/AB;
- retains some semblance of that familiar Vike feeling in the still cosy cabin;
- termite proof.
 
Last edited:
charheep said:
So far, in my plane buying struggles-

2 planes had extremely old unresolved liens
1 plane failed pre-buy (wouldnt even start)
2 owners backed out of selling after accepting an offer. One owner did this 3 times..
1 owner stopped returned my emails and texts completely, after sending him a signed contract with a price we agreed on together.
2 planes had missing logs, even after the point blank question and affirmative response of "complete logs?"
3 sellers (brokers) wanted about 15k too much. Even after showing them valid and reasonable evaluations, they wouldnt really budge. Those planes are still for sale today at basically the same high price, but now have sat for over a year. Planes get more or less expensive when sitting??
2 planes priced a little high based on the ad. As we dug into the logs, pictures and calls, the truth comes out, and they finally agree its not worth what they priced it at, and were willing to accept almost 50% off the ad price just to sell. I dont want a bargain basement handyman special plane.

Not to mention the numerous dredges that brokers (mainly) are trying to pass off as decent planes.

Here is a thought, you list and price a plane honestly and fairly, and I will pay you an honest and fair price. Even would be willing to pay above a honest and fair price. Missing logs, holes in the wings, havent started in a year and wont start, dont really want to sell, or hasnt had an annual in 3 years, then put that into the ad and price accordingly. Yes, all those have happened to me on separate planes.

This is brought about by doing a title search on the latest victim plane and finding a huge lien from 1959 against it. Everyone is hopeful it will be fixed, it will just take time. Me? Not so hopeful based on past performance.

I feel bad for the guy I have hired to help me. He charged me a flat fee to find me a plane and help me through the purchase. I dont think he knew of my bad luck and horrible timing.

I have the money ready, I have a guy that will call you within a day or less to start the conversation, I can hire a guy to do a pre-buy once the contract is signed, I am a valid eager customer. What am I missing?

/Rant off
Click to expand...
Been there. I came away from the experience saying used car salesman are choirboys compared to a lot of the airplane crowd.
 
I bought a '55 chevy pickup because it was advertised as a "100 dollar truck that drives like a 200 dollar truck".. It had an Oldsmobile 350 engine in it, and one rear tire was egg shaped.
 
tspear said:
If you are looking for a cherry plane at market price, you will have a lot of frustration.

Good luck,

Tim
Click to expand...
Many buyers want new aircraft at used prices, and will never find a buy.
Most try to find a reason not to buy, and always do.
FEW find a good aircraft at the good price.
I've yet to find a middle of the market aircraft, at a middle of the market price, that did not have discrepancies.
 
2 minutes after the buy the aircraft becomes a project.
 
Last edited:
My experience has been completely different. I had no difficulty buying my first aircraft, though that was at the turn of the century. My Mooney was clearly as advertised, and I definitely bought at the high end. I think I paid a premium because I was trading my Cherokee, and I didn't want to have to sell another aircraft.

All that said I couldn't believe the dogs that were for sale. Hangar queens and projects abounded. One was ultra inexpensive because it was violently in need of paint. I smelled something wrong about another, and decided not to look. I later discovered that someone else had taken the bait and almost passed out from the fumes. Mine was the only one I saw in person without a fuel leak.
 
OP, what are you looking for? C172, unique plane, in between?
 
Here is how you buy an airplane that's been flying, reasonably maintained:
Go to the airport and wait for a plane you like to buy, after owner gets out: chat him up a little about the airplane, he'll be honest because he's not selling it, yet...if you like it, give him a generous offer.
Helps if you find out when the type club of your desired airplane is having their group $100 hamburger run. Then it's a target rich environment.
 
I am not looking to steal a plane, or offer someone 1/2 off for a good plane. I hope I didnt make it seem that way. If a plane is worth 100 bucks, and based on sales of similar planes are about 100 bucks, then I dont have a problem paying around that price. Thats not the issue. When the plane is advertised for 100 bucks, and you start the process of calling or seeing the plane in person, and the logs are missing, the starter and battery just happened to fail that morning(thanks for scheduling a pre-buy where the plane wont start and has really sat for a long time, guess I didnt realize it has sat for a year..), there is visible corrosion, or any other red flag comes out, then you dont have a 100 dollar plane. Post it as a 70 dollar plane with the issues anyone will see on first inspection and dont try to fool someone.

A 40-60 year old plane will have issues, but you can find ones that have been taken care of. Please list the major ones or convey them on the initial call. "Slight" hail damage that magically turns into deep dents in the control surfaces is not an oversight when you finally get picures. Its a hope that someone will buy the plane unseen.

I have no illusions that sellers can put up pages of shady or shifty buyers as well, and I hope I dont ever become a seller.

I have bought and sold houses, cars, motorcycles, guns and have seriously looked at purchasing boats and RV's in my lifetime, and have not had the hassle put together than I have trying to buy a plane.

Again, this is just a rant, and more of a reflection on my bad luck than anything else. :)

Some people asked, I am looking for (with a greatly simplified reason for each):
under $80k
(in order-ish of preference)
vtail Love the looks and the seating. Hate the one door policy
Mooney F model Love the fuel burn for speed, still has one door
177RG 2 doors, decent speed for fuel burn, but these are priced like gold and there is some corrosion issues with the spar going around (I think thats correct)
182 2 doors, bigger gph versus speed, everyone knows how to work on them

Needs to have an AP, a 430 type GPS, and a general decent solid plane. Flown in the past few years, all the log books, no serious corrosion, old DH, blah blah blah. About as basic as a plane as most people would look for as a second plane first type plane.

If you made it through that long boring page- the seller with the lien has hired a company to see if they can get the lien released/fixed. It is from 1959, but they are hopeful. Now we are all waiting on that to either move forward or move onto the next plane. I have been warned it could be weeks before an answer. Back to limbo waiting again.
 
charheep said:
Some people asked, I am looking for (with a greatly simplified reason for each):
under $80k
(in order-ish of preference)
vtail Love the looks and the seating. Hate the one door policy
Mooney F model Love the fuel burn for speed, still has one door
177RG 2 doors, decent speed for fuel burn, but these are priced like gold and there is some corrosion issues with the spar going around (I think thats correct)
182 2 doors, bigger gph versus speed, everyone knows how to work on them
Click to expand...
Don't mean to *****, but believe it or not this really isn't a lot to go by. Those are really different airframes that do different things. A better idea for us to help you might be to let us know what you expect your mission to be.
 
Didnt read. Have we told him yet that he is obviously a tire-kicking lowballer ?
 
I was being vague for a reason. I hired a buyer agent, and he is kicking the bushes and looking under the non-gender skirts for a plane. I trust him and he has way more contacts that I have and with about 90% of the time, he has either looked at an ad or knows the owner/broker personally when I send him planes I have found. maybe I have my faith in the wrong place with him, but so far he has given me great advice.

It was just a rant, not a call to help me find something. I am still under contract with this last plane, just waiting on the results of getting the lien fixed or not. General consensus is about a 60% this will be fixed and we can move forward.

i really just wanted to share my experiences with the group. Arent we all just here to share and express our emotions and feelings with no chance of mockery or sarcasm? :)
 
It would be a lot easier (especially on the buyers agent) if you actually knew what you wanted. I used a buyers agent because it was my first time buying a plane, but I spent months deciding what wanted and then I told him this is the ones I'm interested in. I had 1 fail the prebuy, so I backed out that one, another I made an offer, but after talking to his mechanic I dropped my offer price, he backed out....3rd time was the charm.
 
charheep said:
I was being vague for a reason. I hired a buyer agent, and he is kicking the bushes and looking under the non-gender skirts for a plane. I trust him and he has way more contacts that I have and with about 90% of the time, he has either looked at an ad or knows the owner/broker personally when I send him planes I have found. maybe I have my faith in the wrong place with him, but so far he has given me great advice.
Click to expand...
Please tell me you're being facetious. Your broker has sent you to look at junk. If he or she was really doing their job the first airplane you looked at would be the last one. Well, not quite, but you wouldn't be beating the bushes the way you are. You're paying them to make the process easier for you. I didn't use a broker and had less trouble.
 
Last edited:
teejayevans said:
It would be a lot easier (especially on the buyers agent) if you actually knew what you wanted. I used a buyers agent because it was my first time buying a plane, but I spent months deciding what wanted and then I told him this is the ones I'm interested in. I had 1 fail the prebuy, so I backed out that one, another I made an offer, but after talking to his mechanic I dropped my offer price, he backed out....3rd time was the charm.
Click to expand...
Good advise on deciding what you want then going after it, IMNSHO. If 80k means you get a bit of a project V-tail then prepare yourself accordingly and go. If ya can’t accept a project then lower your sights and set them on something where 80k gets you near the top of the line.

And if you can’t make up your mind on type then quit fooling around. Save your time and money until you can decide.
 
Planes that have everything you want are going to cost more. However, they are worth more. If you look at your 80k airplane, you will probably sell it for 60k in 10 years after putting 1000 hours on it. So it really only costs you 20k. However you will probably spend 100 an hour, that is 100k, on hangar, insurance, maintenance, fuel and other expenses. So if you "overpay" by 10k is it really so much?

Time is important. If you are willing to wait, you can find a less expensive solution. Want it NOW. Pay more. Because NOW is WORTH more.
 
Clark1961 said:
And if you can’t make up your mind on type then quit fooling around. Save your time and money until you can decide.
Click to expand...

Type often matters when this is an emotional buy. A rational buyer (as if anyone one of was rational spending what we do on planes) would define the mission and get the buyer's agent to find the best deal where the specific model does not matter; but the best specific plane that matches the mission.

Tim
 
steingar said:
Please tell me you're being facetious. Your broker has sent you to look at junk. If he or she was really doing their job the first airplane you looked at would be the last one. Well, not quite, but you wouldn't be beating the bushes the way you are. You're paying them to make the process easier for you. I didn't use a broker and had less trouble.
Click to expand...

How am I being facetious? How are title problems his fault? How is a owner saying the plane has flown recently and when the mechanic showed up it was a flat out lie? How are owners backing out of sales anyone's fault but the seller? I guess I dont understand. I am in Chicago, the buyers agent (from Texas) calls on a plane in Maryland. Asks all the questions. I hire a mechanic to look at the plane and do a pre-buy and finds out there is corrosion in all the nooks and crannys, which was never mentioned or answered honestly. Or a BTW, the first log books are kinda missing when I told you flat out they were complete. Where is mine or the agent's failing in that?
 
tspear said:
Type often matters when this is an emotional buy. A rational buyer (as if anyone one of was rational spending what we do on planes) would define the mission and get the buyer's agent to find the best deal where the specific model does not matter; but the best specific plane that matches the mission.

Tim
Click to expand...

How is the plane's I listed that much different? All complex (retract and CS prop), in the price range, 3 person and luggage, 140-ish knots, comfortable planes? The 182 is an odd ball and thats why its listed last(no FI and not retract). Are these planes not cross shopped all the time? I am not asking in a mean way, I am genuinely curious. If I found a K model Bonanza or a F model Mooney, is that much difference that I have to choose and never look back? The 177RG is (to me) the Cessna version of the Mooney. 200hp, retract, FI.

Maybe I am looking at this all wrong. Maybe I have to say I want a specific plane and year and dont look at any others. Seems short sighted but maybe I am wrong.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top