Fooling Mr. Hobbs

[MAKG1]

I would think this would violate some FAA regulation, especially in a rental. No different than messing with the odometer.

No. The tach is the odometer. The Hobbs is the dollar meter.

It's theft, and it's criminal. But not an FAA issue, except for performing owner maintenance on an airplane for which you aren't the owner (on some airplanes, where cowling removal isn't routine).

 

[RalphInCA]

I would think this would violate some FAA regulation, especially in a rental. No different than messing with the odometer.

There does not need to be a FAA reg. As pointed out by my fellow, very honest, aviators - it's against the law. It's theft.

 

[FastEddieB]

You are much smarter than you look.

Hey, I resemble that remark!

 

[Matthew]

I got into a "what if" argument with a buddy of mine - can't remember what it was about, maybe flying without a medical or something. We should take a lot of pride in the way that flying still relies so heavily on the honor system. Let's not screw things up any more than it already is.

 

[FastEddieB]

Of find which breaker goes to the Hobbs

To my recollection, in most of the Cessna's I flew there was a separate fuse near the battery for the clock and Hobbs, and an oil pressure switch for the Hobbs. Turning the master off would not stop the Hobbs - you would have to pull the fuse.

 

[Indiana_Pilot]

I just fly backwards, worked everytime. Or so I saw in a movie once

It didn't work.. Ferris Bueller's Day Off... LOL

 

[Fearless Tower]

The Hobbs on the airplanes I fly activate when the master is turned on.

If I turned the master switch off during flight, this should stop the Hobbs, right?

If I'm in an area where I will not need the radios, what's to stop me from turning off the master to stop the Hobbs and fly for free?

You need to find a Hobbs meter like I have in the Twin Beech (runs off a gear switch.....i.e. the meter doesn't count if you never raise the gear.)

 

[unsafervguy]

thats why when i ran rentals the hobbs ran off a fuse to the hot side of the master to the oil pressure switch. run the engine with the master off the hobbs still ran.
bob

 

[hotprops]

if YOU owned the airplane how would you feel about doing that?

 

[flyingron]

When given the choice of which instrument to smash in an emergency, most students choose the Hobbs meter.

 

[SkyDog58]

My Hobbs is activated by an oil pressure switch. Engine comes on, Hobbs is running. Electrically powered Hobbs meters are for fools! =D

Uh, regardless of the nature of the switch, the meter is still electrically powered.

 

[ejensen]

Where I rented a guy tried that but turned in ALL the fuel receipts. They guessed at the fuel, on the very lean side.

 

[frfly172]

Hobbs what Hobbs,show us how to beat the Tach time,go high shut down the motor and get that extra ten minutes?

 

[ircphoenix]

Uh, regardless of the nature of the switch, the meter is still electrically powered.

Sorry. I meant tied to the master.

I knew when I typed it that I should make it a more accurate statement... but I assumed incorrectly that pedantry wouldn't prevail.

 

[CT4ME]

It's theft, and it's criminal. But not an FAA issue.

It would have to be an FAA issue, as you are messing with the thing that tracks maintenance intervals and inspections.

 

[RalphInCA]

It would have to be an FAA issue, as you are messing with the thing that tracks maintenance intervals and inspections.

The thing that tracks maintenance and inspections is the tach time, not Hobbs.

 

[MAKG1]

It would have to be an FAA issue, as you are messing with the thing that tracks maintenance intervals and inspections.

The Hobbs meter?

I've never seen Hobbs time recorded in maintenance logs. Tach time is all over the place.

100 hour inspections are done every 100 tach hours. ADs are either tracked by tach time, or calendar time (or else are nonrecurring). What maintenance interval is tied to the Hobbs meter?

Note that a Hobbs meter is not required equipment for any operation. The tach is required for all operations (one for each engine).

 

[flyingron]

I've never seen Hobbs time recorded in maintenance logs. Tach time is all over the place.

Never worked on planes without recording tachs, like late model Bonanzas? The current A36's as well as my Navion have no "tach time."
What I have is a hobbs on the gear switch which gives you the best indication of time in service by the regulatory definition.

100 hour inspections are done every 100 tach hours. ADs are either tracked by tach time, or calendar time (or else are nonrecurring). What maintenance interval is tied to the Hobbs meter?

WRONG. Maintenance time is done by time in service which is essentially time the aircraft is in the air. The FAA will accept just about any reasonable and consistent approximation of that (of which Tach time is the most common).

Note that a Hobbs meter is not required equipment for any operation. The tach is required for all operations (one for each engine).

A TACHOMETER is required. A recording tachometer (i.e. on that reads "tach time") is in NO WAY required.

 

[FastEddieB]

The thing that tracks maintenance and inspections is the tach time, not Hobbs.

It's not uncommon for planes to have only a Hobbs meter.

My prior Cirrus and my Sky Arrow, for two examples.

So that's all that's referenced in the maintenance logs.

 

[mkosmo]

Here's a legal reason: Beacon.

 

[RalphInCA]

Here's a legal reason: Beacon.

Best answer.

Now I definitely can't do it. No way I'm flying an airplane without that little red light. It'll probably fall out the sky or blow up or something.

 

[mkosmo]

Best answer.

Now I definitely can't do it. No way I'm flying an airplane without that little red light. It'll probably fall out the sky or blow up or something.

Without it, how else will Santa see where he's going this Christmas?

 

[Sundancer]

We don't have a Hobbs in our club/partnetship airplane. Or maybe it's in there, but isn't connected? Can't actually recall. . . If I remember to log my time, I just multiply the tach by 1.2, unless I happened to glance at my watch.

I doubt the FAA cares, though - not like the hobbs is used for maintenance, etc.

 

[mkosmo]

My Hobbs is inop. I let MFB or a watch determine real-time and record tach time in the aircraft log.

 

[fiveoboy01]

My hobbs runs when the master is on, engine running or not. But I own the airplane, so I don't care.

 

[RyanShort1]

Also, owners have options such as this: http://www.findmespot.com/en/index.php?cid=128 that are a lot more likely to get implemented if things get fishy, and if you are at a towered airport, or get seen, you could be caught as well.

 

[Turningfinal]

There does not need to be a FAA reg. As pointed out by my fellow, very honest, aviators - it's against the law. It's theft.

To me, the bigger theft is charging for aircraft by the Hobbs and not the tach. Never rented an aircraft charged by Hobbs time and never will. It contributes to compromising safety.

 

[Somedudeintn]

To me, the bigger theft is charging for aircraft by the Hobbs and not the tach. Never rented an aircraft charged by Hobbs time and never will. It contributes to compromising safety.

I wish I could say that I've never rented a Hobbs aircraft either, but my only alternative is to not rent at all.

 

[ircphoenix]

To me, the bigger theft is charging for aircraft by the Hobbs and not the tach. Never rented an aircraft charged by Hobbs time and never will. It contributes to compromising safety.

So you get charged 20% more per tach hour vs Hobbs hour... and that makes you feel better? Okay.....

 

[RotorDude]

To me, the bigger theft is charging for aircraft by the Hobbs and not the tach. Never rented an aircraft charged by Hobbs time and never will. It contributes to compromising safety.

You get charged for renting a vehicle by time (albeit with a daily granularity), not odometer (although the latter may be an extra component). I think that's logical, because the vehicle is not available to others while you use it, regardless of the mileage you put on. Don't see why aircraft rental should be different.

 

[FastEddieB]

Never rented an aircraft charged by Hobbs time and never will. It contributes to compromising safety.

Then you've voluntarily excluded a significant portion of the fleet from your consideration.

Not sure how it compromises safety. Could you expand?

 

[tawood]

So you get charged 20% more per tach hour vs Hobbs hour... and that makes you feel better? Okay.....

I think you have this backwards....

 

[vontresc]

Put me on the list of let the content of your character be your guide. Many rental airplanes help with that by being "hot wired" and run through an oil pressure switch. No oil pressure, no tic toc. On these you can turn on the master to check lights, flaps, radios and stuff and the Hobbs won't turn because the engine ain't makin oil pressure. Want some free time in the air? Go ahead, turn the engine off. Oh yeah, don't rent to Glider pilots on "good air" days.
[edit]. Some responses to this post have made realize it may have been misinterpreted. I in no way suggest to shut down the engine to save a few bucks. "Go ahead, turn the engine off" was meant as shutting the engine down was the last thing anyone would actually do.

I got some "free" flight time once in a flying club 172 when the oil line to the hobbs meter oil pressure switch let go

Thankfully I was out of currency doing touch and goes, and by the time I was on my third time in the pattern, I noticed the oil pressure going south. Landed with like 3-4 qts left IIRC, but the belly of the plane looked awful.

 

[Thomas R.]

My Hobbs is activated by an oil pressure switch. Engine comes on, Hobbs is running. Electrically powered Hobbs meters are for fools! =D

Actually electrically-powered Hobbs meters that come on with the master switch compensate aircraft in flight schools for the wear and tear that is caused due to preflighting, and other things onvolved with getting the plane ready. Every time you turn that master switch on the gyro systems spool up, avionics cooling fans come on flap motors run when flaps are dropped and strobe light boxes turn on, relays click over. These are all components that can wear out and break over time this is the reason that we bill from the moment that master switch goes on. Do com radios fail? How about push-to-talk switches? Those are also other items that are used when the master switch is on but the engine is not running me to call for fuel obtain the clearance check ATIS ect. How else is a flight school / FBO supposed to build up reserves to repair or replace those items? I suppose we could just charge more hourly and run the Hobbs off the oil pressure switch why not I think that messed it would end up costing the renter even more. I rent my primary training aircraft for $120 per hour divided by 10 that's $12 every 6 minutes I could raise the price $20 $140 per hour and bill by oil pressure. If i did that my students would actually wind up paying more $ out of pocket per flight based on the fact they are not sitting around for 12 mins with the master on and engine not running.

The other thought here is that any time that Hobbs meter is running students are getting hours in their logbook flight instructors don't go through and write down what the Hobbs was when they pulled off the apron onto the taxiway and then subtract the balance before they turn in and sign the students log books off. You know this student get to log every single one of those 1/10 hours
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To the OP:

Personally I think being cheap like this has no place in aviation I don't make very much money per hour on my aircraft after insurance and all the other stuff that goes into operating a flight school. In fact my rates are the lowest at my field without having to be in the club.

I do that to help people fly more I am trying to help encourage general aviation if someone were to start ripping I would definitely be ****ed

Fortunately at my operation we log not only hobbs but tach time is well and I personally oversee everything so I would catch on very very quickly and since most of my students have money on account I would definitely figure out the discrepancy bill the student accordingly write them a check for the remaining balance and ask them turn in their badge then I would circulate an email around to my friends that own all the flight schools here at nearby fields to let them know about that person's behavior and advised them it would be in their best business practices to not rent to that person. And if I could properly document the discrepancy I would definitely get the sheriff's department get involved.


Don't steal from people. If you're that worried about the cost go buy your own plane if you're not able to do so well I guess then it's just too d*** bad you have to pay whatever the going rate is if you don't like it, don't fly. It's that simple.

 

[pmanton]

Just steal the plane and put bogus N numbers on it. When it need maintenance just steal another.

 

[mkosmo]

Actually electrically-powered Hobbs meters that come on with the master switch compensate aircraft in flight schools for the wear and tear that is caused due to preflighting, and other things onvolved with getting the plane ready. Every time you turn that master switch on the gyro systems spool up, avionics cooling fans come on flap motors run when flaps are dropped and strobe light boxes turn on, relays click over. These are all components that can wear out and break over time this is the reason that we bill from the moment that master switch goes on. Do com radios fail? How about push-to-talk switches? Those are also other items that are used when the master switch is on but the engine is not running me to call for fuel obtain the clearance check ATIS ect. How else is a flight school / FBO supposed to build up reserves to repair or replace those items? I suppose we could just charge more hourly and run the Hobbs off the oil pressure switch why not I think that messed it would end up costing the renter even more. I rent my primary training aircraft for $120 per hour divided by 10 that's $12 every 6 minutes I could raise the price $20 $140 per hour and bill by oil pressure. If i did that my students would actually wind up paying more $ out of pocket per flight based on the fact they are not sitting around for 12 mins with the master on and engine not running.

That's a cost of doing business. You bake that in to your rental rate -- you don't try to charge a kid another tenth or extra he didn't fly. That's just being cheap and it's bad, unexpected business.

 

[Thomas R.]

Every school I did any training for all of my ratings had the hobbs come on as soon as you hit the master switch.

Lol and I'm cheap haha. Every student I have ever had come through my flight school I have personally given at least at the minimum $150 on account in free flight time some have gotten $250 and $300 just as a thanks for choosing us. You name me another flight school in the country that does that just for the hell of it. Or sometime I'll give them free books free supplies whatever. I know and understand that it's tough to be a student and that money is tight for a lot of them which is why I do everything in my power to save them as much as possible during their training.

Student has a checkride and passes sometimes I'll comp the flight time
Student has a checkride and fails at times I'll comp the airplane.

Student has a bad day flying and cut the fight short sometimes I'll comp the flight.

Name me one other flight school that does that....

You can't.

I don't do it as giveaways or they have to earn it if I'm in a good mood and I see students sometimes I give them money on their account just for being customers. Couple that with the fact that I run one of the least expensive flight training schools in Southern California.

I also have a 501c3 nonprofit that provides 100% free Flight Training to US veterans. Yeah I'm real cheap.

Not one of our students have ever complained and I doubt you would either.

If you were sitting in my lobby one day and I walked in and I said hey bud how you doing today and you replied that you got into a minor fender-bender that morning and then I smiled and said hey I'm going to put some cash on your account thanks for flying with us I appreciate you bet you wouldn't be complaining about the hobbs then. That's actually something I just did this morning when a student had to cancel a flight due to a minor car accident. ( just for clarification purposes the event this morning was via the phone the student was not in my Lobby)

I think you have cheap and me confused with somebody else.
try again pal

 

[MAKG1]

Thomas, you seem to be a pretty generous operator, but I've never encountered a rental operation that wired Hobbs directly to master. I think it may take some people, particularly out-of-towners, by surprise. More typically, the wet Hobbs rate is a bit higher and they run off oil pressure. Occasionally, there is a charge (like $50) for a master left on, due to the effort to recharge the battery and its potential shortened lifetime. Typically, the operations own at least half of the airplanes (they are not all leasebacks). It's not going to make a lot of difference either way for a typical preflight; most of us keep the master on for minimal time so we have as much battery as possible to start the engine. But it may make for bad blood if unexpected.

There is precedent for having a policy (like flight minimums for overnights) and then routinely making exceptions. It's common, but it breeds expectation that you don't really mean any of your rules.

 

[Thomas R.]

Thomas, you seem to be a pretty generous operator, but I've never encountered a rental operation that wired Hobbs directly to master. I think it may take some people, particularly out-of-towners, by surprise. More typically, the wet Hobbs rate is a bit higher and they run off oil pressure. Occasionally, there is a charge (like $50) for a master left on, due to the effort to recharge the battery and its potential shortened lifetime. Typically, the operations own at least half of the airplanes (they are not all leasebacks). It's not going to make a lot of difference either way for a typical preflight; most of us keep the master on for minimal time so we have as much battery as possible to start the engine. But it may make for bad blood if unexpected.

There is precedent for having a policy (like flight minimums for overnights) and then routinely making exceptions. It's common, but it breeds expectation that you don't really mean any of your rules.

First off Ill ad that our rates page online and in office also specify "Rates based on master on hobbs" So I'm not worried about "bad blood." If a potential customer doesn't like that they are more than welcome to go across the street and paid 150 something dollars an hour for the exact same place as opposed to 120.

None of my aircraft are leasebacks they are all owned by me and in fact not one aircraft that I have on my line did I personally or have wired the Hobbs to the master switch since my purchase that is how they came when I bought them from the other facilities that were using them just to add a little more to that now I don't charge minimum flight hours I don't charge fees for flat-spotted tires or dead batteries or any of that. It's real simple turn the master on listen for the fans and Gyros to spool up lower the flaps walk around the airplane make sure the lights are working hop in turn the master off and do your normal pre-flight. It's pretty simple if you're that cheap personally it doesn't take me but 5 minutes to PreFlight a simple little 172 or a Cherokee so we're talking not even one-tenth on the Hobbs.

I think the real topic of this thread is not the debate whether hobbs should come on with master or oil pressure but the debate should be over whether or not this guy should be stealing that's the problem.

 

[RalphInCA]

ONE MORE TIME... Since this thread has turned a little ugly, and since I am the OP:

JUST TO BE CLEAR FOLKS: Since I suspect other members of my Flying Club are on this board, and since aviation is a small community, my pondering on this subject was just that - pondering. A thought exercise. I'm happy to pay to support my flying addiction.

I also rent by the golden: I do unto others as I would have them do unto me.