JeffDG
Touchdown! Greaser!
From "Black's Law Dictionary"
License: The permission by competent authority to do an act which without such permission, would be illegal.
Your certificate is evidence of having been granted a license.
Flying without license
- Thread starter midlifeflyer
- Start date
From "Black's Law Dictionary"
License: The permission by competent authority to do an act which without such permission, would be illegal.
Your certificate is evidence of having been granted a license.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Odd, I don't see license or Black's Law Dictionary in 14CFR1.1
Maybe I need to look closer.
JeffDG
Touchdown! Greaser!
Do you find the word "see" in there? As in "see and avoid"? What, then, is the definition of "see" in that phrase?
Perhaps there might be a generally available reference to the meanings of words in the English language that one might consult for the meanings of words. And if you're looking of those meanings from a legal perspective, one might want to consult the most widely used such reference used in the profession for over a century...
But, go ahead, and keep looking in there, and insisting that no meaning exists except that which is listed.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
I will. And if asked for my license I will say I don't have one.
JeffDG
Touchdown! Greaser!
You can't be asked for your "license". A "license" in this context is not a physical or tangible item. It's a right granted to you. The FAA has issued you an Airman's Certificate that you present as evidence they've granted you the license.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Exactly. Which is why none of us have one.
JeffDG
Touchdown! Greaser!
On a related note, you don't have a life, apparently.
Still waiting for you to tell me where to find that definition for "see" in the 14 CFR
N747JB
Final Approach
I'd bet this wasn't anything to do with ATC noticing an "unregistered" airplane. It was either someone that didn't like the guy, very likely or the feds were watching him because they knew he was flying without a valid airman's certificate and medical. ATC has too much to do to check registrations on airplanes in the system, somebody somewhere was just waiting on him to take off so they could catch him. 
Sounds like he's not big on rules, and if he's in the airplane (salvage) business he may have been flying without ferry permits, of course without a ticket, you don't need to worry about a ferry permit.
Sounds like he's not big on rules, and if he's in the airplane (salvage) business he may have been flying without ferry permits, of course without a ticket, you don't need to worry about a ferry permit. 
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
I'd bet this wasn't anything to do with ATC noticing an "unregistered" airplane. It was either someone that didn't like the guy, very likely or the feds were watching him because they knew he was flying without a valid airman's certificate and medical. ATC has too much to do to check registrations on airplanes in the system, somebody somewhere was just waiting on him to take off so they could catch him.
I dont think that the FAA has controllers looking, they are probably just running a script on the output of the NAS computer datastream. A number of other 3 letter agencies are watching small aircraft traffic out of south FL, a 'unregistered' aircraft makes fo good probable cause for a stop. This is like driving past a cop car with a license plate reader while your registration is lapsed.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
And yet you're the one wasting time digging out legal definitions from non-avaition publication, or scouring 1.1 looking for words that may not be defined. Now who doesn't have a life?
If you want a pilot's license go to Europe; If you want a pilot certificate stay here.
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
Sure. But indictments are pretty much boring. In this case you may find the plea agreement and the sentencing memorandum filed by his lawyer more interesting:
- Cate Indictment
- Cate Plea Agreement
- Cate's Sentencing Memorandum (by his attorney)
There's another file attached to the sentencing memo that I am not including. It contains letters to the judge from him and family members (including his 16-year old daughter) as well as a counselling organization. Like the other documents, it's a matter of public record but I choose not to include it.
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JeffDG
Touchdown! Greaser!
No scouring needed. I just picked a rather easily understood word like "see" or "license"
I looked in a DICTIONARY...you know a big book that defines words?
You said if it's not tangible and physical, then you don't have it, so I applied that logic to you...since your life is neither a tangible or physical thing, you don't have it.
So, what official aviation publication defines "see" again?
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
I'm not the one that brought up the term "see," you did. You bring it up, the onus is on you. And license obviously isn't easily understood since so many people claim to have a US pilot's license.
JeffDG
Touchdown! Greaser!
I'm not making the claim that "If it's not defined in FAR 1.1, it has no meaning." I'm quite happy to use dictionaries to find the meanings of words.
Many people, including you and I, have US Pilot's Licenses...which means that they are permitted by the United States to do something that is generally prohibited, that being piloting aircraft. Your certificate is issued by the FAA to evidence that license.
Oh, and if your issue is the fact that I used a legal dictionary, Merriam Webster defines a "license" as "a permission granted by competent authority to engage in a business or occupation or in an activity otherwise unlawful"
acrophile
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acrophile
Doesn't matter. The two terms are synonymous in this context. The FAA's use of one synonym doesn't somehow make statements false that use the other synonym instead.
If the CFRs use the word "pilot" and never "aviator", does that mean you are not an aviator? If they use the word "proficient" rather than "capable" with regard to pilots, does that mean you are not a capable pilot?
1600vw
Pattern Altitude
If you live in the lower 48 and no certificate you are a person whom does not follow laws and real safety problem.
If you live in Alaska and fly with no certificate, its the way things are done..
Double standard....
If you live in Alaska and fly with no certificate, its the way things are done..
Double standard....
marcoseddi
Cleared for Takeoff
Question why was he doing this flight? How did he learn to fly ? What kind of plane was it ? Can he ever actually get a certificate ?
bluerooster
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shorty
My guess is that someone on the ground contacted the authorities, and gave them the N number. Otherwise how would anyone know prior to his arrival? Assuming he was VFR and not on FF, and an un-eventful flight.
And then, if he was on FF, it must have been a pretty slow day at ATC for someone to look up his N number. Unless certian N numbers are flagged for report when they show up.
All this assuming that he didn't file flight plan.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Those terms have different meanings.
How come no one ever says, "I got my instructor's license." Because generally by that time we've gotten smart enough to know what's what.
JeffDG
Touchdown! Greaser!
Those terms have different meanings.
How come no one ever says, "I got my instructor's license." Because generally by that time we've gotten smart enough to know what's what.
You know, neither "instructor" nor "instruction" are defined in FAR 1.1, right? How do you know what to do?
JeffDG
Touchdown! Greaser!
The term "instruction" or "instructional" is used multiple times, but never defined.
How do you determine the definition of that term then? I'm just using your rules, that if it's not defined in 14 CFR it has no meaning...not my fault your logic is so flawed that it's easy for me to poke holes big enough for an A380 to fly through them.
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
Thanks. As I expected, that didn't settle the argument, but it settles it for me.
poadeleted20
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If you read his attorney's presentence recommendation (linked above), you can get the answers to most of your questions. As for getting a pilot certificate now, that does not appear likely in the foreseeable future given his alcohol-related history of criminal convictions and FAA violations. Note in particular his attorney's statement that he hasn't been drunk in three years, rather than not drinking in that period. I just don't see this guy getting a medical for a very long time, and given his revocation history (both pilot and mechanic certificates) including falsification on an FAA medical application, I don't see the DL/Sport Pilot option as being possible, either. Frankly, I suspect the FAA would put him in the same category as Hayden James Shaeffer (the pilot in the "Smoketown Bandits" event) -- he can apply, but he'll never, ever be issued.
He is in the business of purchasing aircraft and dismantling them for parts.
From his dad, when he was 6.
Interestingly, when the FAA catches someone without a certificate, they dont hold that fact alone against them when it comes to obtaining one. In the sentencing memo, there is mention of a DUI and drug problems, so he may face some obstacles on that front.
Did you read my post ?
poadeleted20
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That is generally true. They encourage compliance, even after they smack you with a civil penalty for the original offense.
...especially since that memo suggests he's only stopped getting drunk, not stopped drinking. There's also mention of the revocation of both mechanic and pilot airman certificates in the past, and whatever led to those events is going to weigh heavily against him in future FAA considerations. Read it all, and you see a lifetime inability (due in large part, but not entirely, to alcohol abuse) to follow the rules and stay out of trouble. Even though this isn't an ATP with the "good moral character" clause, I don't think the FAA would have much trouble making the case that based several decades demonstrated behavior, he is not safe to fly from the standpoint of mental state under 14 CFR 67.307(a), both subparagraphs (1) and (4). And as he previously had a medical denied/revoked, Sport Pilot on a DL is out, too.
But I guess there's always ultralights...
acrophile
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acrophile
Wait, so you're saying it can be correct to substitute an alternative word only if the alternative is not an exact synonym? That's what you think invalidates my analogy?
No, it's because instructors often just repeat what their own instructors told them. That's how so many myths become entrenched in the aviation community.
Aviation's "license"-deniers show the same fetishistic hyper-literalism as the fringe who think Obama's birth certificate isn't a birth certificate because it says "Certificate of Live Birth" instead of "Birth Certificate".
No they don't!
TheTraveler
Line Up and Wait
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
marcoseddi
Cleared for Takeoff
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
Nah. The Obama thing is strictly political, not semantic. Want proof - look and the liberal vs conservative spins on "Mission Accomplished!"
The "license" thing is more like a few other aviation nonsense like,
"No it's not the 'FAR. It's the "C.F.R."
"No, it's not a BFR." (my personal favorite since by complete serendipity, I ended up with a license plate that starts with 'BFR')
There's no literalism involved. Just silliness.
IMO, there is however at least a basis for the "certificate" literalism that probably has nothing to do with the folks who whine about it. There are a number of principles in Part 61 that depend on understanding the difference between "certificate," "rating" and "endorsement." "License" adds a lack of semantic imprecision to something that is already confusing to a good number of people.
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WakeNCAgent
Pre-takeoff checklist
Interestingly, there was an off airport landing on a New York City highway this weekend. When you run the registration on the plane, it matches the name and address of a student pilot in the airman database. That fact alone wouldn't be interesting, but he was carrying two pax. Oops!
3393RP
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3393RP
This is just an anecdote and probably not of much interest. During my teenage years a friend's dad bought a Cessna 310, he flew it for years before selling it and quit flying. He previously owned a 182.
I found out much later he had done all of this without a license. Err, certificate.
He had received about 25 hours of dual instruction in a single before buying the 182 and flew it about five years before purchasing the 310. Again, he had some dual instruction in the twin but I don't know how much. The airplane was hangared with a 421C owned by another friend's father, and I used to earn pocket money washing and waxing them.
I recall the 310 was pretty much flown in VFR conditions so I don't believe he ever tried flight in IMC.
I was quite surprised to learn about this after the fact, the guy was a successful businessman and pretty conservative. I don't know if he was caught by the feds or just quit while he was ahead.
I suppose this is not unheard of but it's certainly a good way to have serious health problems.
I found out much later he had done all of this without a license. Err, certificate.
He had received about 25 hours of dual instruction in a single before buying the 182 and flew it about five years before purchasing the 310. Again, he had some dual instruction in the twin but I don't know how much. The airplane was hangared with a 421C owned by another friend's father, and I used to earn pocket money washing and waxing them.
I recall the 310 was pretty much flown in VFR conditions so I don't believe he ever tried flight in IMC.
I was quite surprised to learn about this after the fact, the guy was a successful businessman and pretty conservative. I don't know if he was caught by the feds or just quit while he was ahead.
I suppose this is not unheard of but it's certainly a good way to have serious health problems.
The FAA airman database frequently lags behind the issuance of temporary airman certificates by several months.
I think the technical term to describe what happened in this thread is circle-jerk.