Flying Warbirds

Let them fly or ground them?

  • Let 'em fly!

    Votes: 100 95.2%
  • Make them all static.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Don't care.

    Votes: 5 4.8%

  • Total voters
    105
Making them static is a guaranteed death for a plane. My heart sinks every time I go to some flight museum and see a static cobra, F14, F4, etc. and see the flat tires and the corroded parts, or smashed glass and other vandalism. Let them fly, its what they were made to do. If you're for putting them up, you also should own any dog originally breed for hunting (which is almost all of them), unless you hunt. What makes Pensacola and Wright-Patt different is their planes are kept in flying condition as they should be.
 
Planes that don't fly are boring I have very little interest in them if any. A warrior rotting away as a static display at a museum is sad which is why I volunteer at a museum that keeps them flying.
 
They're not public property so it's not up to the public to decide if they're flown. I not only say "let them fly", I invest a considerable chunk of my paycheck for the privilege of ruining clothes and washing 25W-60 out of my hair.


I can assure you seeing a P-40 on a low pass cannot be replicated with a static display and MP3 file of an Allison.

I suspect the biggest problem is pilot proficiency. I know a guy who owns an AT-6. He says it's the funnest airplane he's ever flown, and also the most demanding airplane he's ever flown, that he would have to fly it at least once a week and preferably more often to stay sharp enough to deal with it... so he hasn't flown it in years, but he's reluctant to see it because it was his father's plane. Flying a warbird once or twice a week is expensive even for rich guys.

I'm not rich. I don't have a boat, RV, season tickets to anything, golf clubs, McMansion or ex-wife sucking my pockets dry. i only fly a BT and not a T-6, but it is similarly poised to cut you for any skill deficiency . I freely admit that flying it safely takes everything I know about machinery, aeronautics and history.

The plane I fly was built in 1942 and has never been restored. I do not fly it like I would if it were 70 (or even 50) years newer but it's not particularly frail.

While not super cool on the warbird scale, there are very few of them left (20-50 left in the world, maybe half of them airworthy) - which does get me some great parking spots.
Knowing that does come in to consideration when it comes to operating and preserving the plane, but it will be flown.
 
They're not public property so it's not up to the public to decide if they're flown.

There was a caveat to that. Most of the former military aircraft were sold with a clause that the US Government could reclaim them if they needed to. There were some Generals in the Pentagon several years ago that were threatening to do just that. They were part of the no one should be flying these aircraft crowd. Fortunately I think politics shut down those threats for the time being.
 
Alluded to earlier, someone tally how many warbirds have been lost to an age related issue (spar failure, linkage failure, etc.) vs all other (pilot error, engine failure - which happens to plenty of Cirri). I’ll bet the former category approaches zero statistically.

That may not answer the question but it takes away the most common reason given for one answer.
Warbird losses from structural failure are not zero (many have unfortunately been lost firefighting for example), but yes, the number of mechanical or structure failure losses is far less than the pilot error ones.
 
I say keep them flying, but only if they are flown from the ground like the military drones...best of both worlds: plane keep flying and pilot stays safe.
Unfortunately that is one of the reasons there are so many Wildcats still flying and very few Hellcats. The Navy uses the surplus Hellcats as drones and they were mostly blown up by missiles....
 
Bullpoop. Crossfield served in the Navy as both an instructor and a fighter pilot in WWII. It was his test pilot career he did as a civilian for NACA and North American.

Never said he didn’t serve during WWII. He didn’t fight, as in seeing combat. The war ended before his squadron could deploy.

https://www.thisdayinaviation.com/2-october-1921/

I’d rather take the opinion of the many vets like Lefty Gardner (CAF), Chuck Yeager, Paul Poberezny (EAA), etc. who actually flew aircraft in combat and we’re supporters of keeping them flying after the war. Again, nothing against Crossfield, I just disagree with that statement, if indeed he did make it.
 
I suspect the biggest problem is pilot proficiency. I know a guy who owns an AT-6. He says it's the funnest airplane he's ever flown, and also the most demanding airplane he's ever flown, that he would have to fly it at least once a week and preferably more often to stay sharp enough to deal with it... so he hasn't flown it in years, but he's reluctant to see it because it was his father's plane. Flying a warbird once or twice a week is expensive even for rich guys.
To me the AT-6 is more of an unforgiving airplane than a 'demanding' one. It is honestly one of the easiest tailwheel airplanes I have flown.....until it isn't. If you exceed the limits, it doesn't give you much warning or time to correct. In my opinion, that is where people get into trouble in these airplanes. They get too comfortable/over-confident and put the airplane in situations that can be unrecoverable.

2018 has been a bad year for the T6 community for just that reason. Very experienced pilots exceeding the limits in order to put on a good show.

Personally, I absolutely love seeing warbirds fly, but I have no real need to see a bunch of warbird aerobatics. That doesn't really do much for me. I'm plenty content with seeing (and hearing) them startup, takeoff, do some low passes and land. Even as a kid, I was always more interested in the static displays than the actual show.

BUT, you need to keep 'em flying in order to bring them to the shows for static display.
 
LOL I have a bus driver friend who thinks classic cars should stay off the road.
There is something behind that though.

I have a friend that used to own a Duesenberg. It was essentially a piece of fine art. He said it was not an enjoyable car to drive and as valuable as the car was, you'd never want to risk taking it out on the open road for risk of damaging it.

There is a huge difference between flying a P-51 from Texas to Oshkosh vs driving a $1M dollar rare automobile from Chicago to Barrett Jackson in Scottsdale.
 
Personally, I absolutely love seeing warbirds fly, but I have no real need to see a bunch of warbird aerobatics. That doesn't really do much for me. I'm plenty content with seeing (and hearing) them startup, takeoff, do some low passes and land. Even as a kid, I was always more interested in the static displays than the actual show.

BUT, you need to keep 'em flying in order to bring them to the shows for static display.
That's where I'm at, and I think even the Commemorative Air Force is generally leaning that way. The show at Redbird this year was mostly racetracks, seemed very safe, and I heard no-one in the crowd complaining about the lack of aerobatics. I don't go to airshows to see planes crash.
 
There is something behind that though.

I have a friend that used to own a Duesenberg. It was essentially a piece of fine art. He said it was not an enjoyable car to drive and as valuable as the car was, you'd never want to risk taking it out on the open road for risk of damaging it.

There is a huge difference between flying a P-51 from Texas to Oshkosh vs driving a $1M dollar rare automobile from Chicago to Barrett Jackson in Scottsdale.
I might be wrong, but I think his point was “who cares what a bus driver thinks about someone else driving their car”, as an allegory for “who cares what an airline pilot thinks about other people flying their planes?”
 
There is something behind that though.

I have a friend that used to own a Duesenberg. It was essentially a piece of fine art. He said it was not an enjoyable car to drive and as valuable as the car was, you'd never want to risk taking it out on the open road for risk of damaging it.

There is a huge difference between flying a P-51 from Texas to Oshkosh vs driving a $1M dollar rare automobile from Chicago to Barrett Jackson in Scottsdale.

It was just a joke as if being an airline pilot gives one any credibility on the subject.
 
LOL, my friend is taking quite a beating, which I'm okay with! That was just one example. Ryan posted a link to a forum where I saw several people who thought the same way about the warbirds. I think if you take them away, we're really losing a part of our history and I would really hate to see that.
 
Not that my opinion matters, but I figure that as long as there is at least one of each type kept in good condition for static display somewhere, then I'm OK with people flying others of that type if that's what they want to do.
 
That isn’t true. It may be true for some rebuilds like Glacier Girl for example, but most warbirds are still very original and are being kept in the air by original surplus parts that were manufactured during WWII.

My T6 is 77 yeas old and the vast majority of the airframe is original 1941 metal.

Quite the opposite. GG is probably the single "restoration" with the most original metal -- Bob Cardin claims 80% of the parts flying in it are original. The vast majority of fighters that have been restored in the last 20 years are mostly new metal around original castings and fixtures, and to some extent original extrusions that are the hardest and most expensive to reproduce. Mustangs, especially, are mostly new metal.

T-6s will be flying into the next half century fueled by Lance's stock of NOS parts, but the Six is virtually the only warbird airframe type that has that amount of NOS parts around still.
 
Quite the opposite. GG is probably the single "restoration" with the most original metal -- Bob Cardin claims 80% of the parts flying in it are original. The vast majority of fighters that have been restored in the last 20 years are mostly new metal around original castings and fixtures, and to some extent original extrusions that are the hardest and most expensive to reproduce. Mustangs, especially, are mostly new metal.

T-6s will be flying into the next half century fueled by Lance's stock of NOS parts, but the Six is virtually the only warbird airframe type that has that amount of NOS parts around still.
Hacker knows of what he speaks.
 
Quite the opposite. GG is probably the single "restoration" with the most original metal -- Bob Cardin claims 80% of the parts flying in it are original. The vast majority of fighters that have been restored in the last 20 years are mostly new metal around original castings and fixtures, and to some extent original extrusions that are the hardest and most expensive to reproduce. Mustangs, especially, are mostly new metal.
I won’t claim to know what percentage is original and what was remanufactured, but there was a documentary of the project that came out shortly after the airplane flew again. It highlighted that while the airplane was intact when they brought it up, much of the metal skin and many internal structures were not suitable for flight and were removed and used as patterns for replacements.

As I recall, the documentary didn’t paint the most flattering picture of Bob Cardin either, so perhaps that may account for the perceived difference.
 
This will sound a little down, but it's the truth as I see it:
Fly the warbirds until they are dust. In a few more years, almost no one will care about them except a very, select, few.
I live in Dutchess County, NY. Almost within spitting distance of the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome.
It is a remarkable place, staffed, run, and maintained by some of the best people I know. Clay Hammond, his wife, and the rest of the team risk life and limb, and financial ruin to keep Cole Palen's dream alive.
And no one cares.
Every year attendance falls off.
No one learns about aviation in school anymore.
No one learns about WWI and the air battles over France.
No one knows who "Lucky Lindy" is and why he is so important.
No one cares that some of these plane are over 100 years old, and that even the replicas require a level of skill to fly that is almost unheard of in these modern times.
You can do everything humanly possible to save and preserve the warbirds, of any era, but eventually no one will care anymore. It was too long ago,and too far away and it doesn't affect people anymore.

I'm at Rhinebeck every year for the Jamboree, most years, multiple times. and I get to see what's going on, first hand.
It's just a crying shame that we are losing such an important part of what makes us America.

I did a short distance triathlon a few years ago, which was held at Georgia Veterans Park. Included in the park is a museum and display area which has a B-29A, a P-80, and one other early jet that I didn't recognize. Naturally, I wandered over to check them out, for two reasons. First, I like airplanes, and second, my father served as aircrew in one during the Korean war. Of course, out of all the people in the park at that time, I was the only one who was interested. Shep is right, the general population has no interest in this stuff, and at some point these airplanes are going to go to neglect because those who cared will have died off.

In case anyone is wondering where this is, it's a little west of Cordele, GA, near the freeway exit where there's a Titan I missile on static display. Nearly everyone ignores it, too.
 
I would be seriously depressed if Warbirds and other vintage aircraft stopped flying. The feeling of taking off, or watching a vintage aircraft take off is next to not much else. It is a wonderful thing to see people keep these memories alive. It goes alot farther than the beauty of the aircraft as well. These are parts of history that are very important, and most of them have very important stories or memories attached to them. Keep em flying.
 
Speaking of beautiful aircraft:

1920px-P-51_Mustang_edit1.jpg
 
After a major restoration, followed by rebuilds after two big accidents, as original as the ship of Theseus!

:)
POA, a place to learn something new everyday. I had to go look this up, kind of like George Washington's axe.
 
Goodwood Festival of Speed. Millions of dollars’ worth of vintage race cars letting it all hang out on a track. Occasionally one gets totaled and, vintage safety systems being what they are, occasionally they take the driver with them.

Fly ‘em. They were meant to fly. If you believe, as I do, that machines possess a type of soul all their own, they WANT to fly. They can die from living or they can die from surviving. I’d like to think I’d always choose life.


It little profits that an idle king,
By this still hearth, among these barren crags,
Match'd with an aged wife, I mete and dole
Unequal laws unto a savage race,
That hoard, and sleep, and feed, and know not me.
I cannot rest from travel: I will drink
Life to the lees: All times I have enjoy'd
Greatly, have suffer'd greatly, both with those
That loved me, and alone, on shore, and when
Thro' scudding drifts the rainy Hyades
Vext the dim sea: I am become a name;
For always roaming with a hungry heart
Much have I seen and known; cities of men
And manners, climates, councils, governments,
Myself not least, but honour'd of them all;
And drunk delight of battle with my peers,
Far on the ringing plains of windy Troy.
I am a part of all that I have met;
Yet all experience is an arch wherethro'
Gleams that untravell'd world whose margin fades
For ever and forever when I move.
How dull it is to pause, to make an end,
To rust unburnish'd, not to shine in use!
As tho' to breathe were life! Life piled on life
Were all too little, and of one to me
Little remains: but every hour is saved
From that eternal silence, something more,
A bringer of new things; and vile it were
For some three suns to store and hoard myself,
And this gray spirit yearning in desire
To follow knowledge like a sinking star,
Beyond the utmost bound of human thought.

This is my son, mine own Telemachus,
To whom I leave the sceptre and the isle,—
Well-loved of me, discerning to fulfil
This labour, by slow prudence to make mild
A rugged people, and thro' soft degrees
Subdue them to the useful and the good.
Most blameless is he, centred in the sphere
Of common duties, decent not to fail
In offices of tenderness, and pay
Meet adoration to my household gods,
When I am gone. He works his work, I mine.

There lies the port; the vessel puffs her sail:
There gloom the dark, broad seas. My mariners,
Souls that have toil'd, and wrought, and thought with me—
That ever with a frolic welcome took
The thunder and the sunshine, and opposed
Free hearts, free foreheads—you and I are old;
Old age hath yet his honour and his toil;
Death closes all: but something ere the end,
Some work of noble note, may yet be done,
Not unbecoming men that strove with Gods.
The lights begin to twinkle from the rocks:
The long day wanes: the slow moon climbs: the deep
Moans round with many voices. Come, my friends,
'T is not too late to seek a newer world.
Push off, and sitting well in order smite
The sounding furrows; for my purpose holds
To sail beyond the sunset, and the baths
Of all the western stars, until I die.
It may be that the gulfs will wash us down:
It may be we shall touch the Happy Isles,
And see the great Achilles, whom we knew.
Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho'
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.”

Tennyson, Ulysses
 
I will probably never own a war bird, but if I did, it would be the Douglas A1 Skyraider.... as I am a little biased towards planes that saved the mud soldiers butts.

aw026_1.jpg


The A10 is also one to remember. There is an unknown A10 pilot that saved a particular personal to me squad from total devastation and completely changed the out come of the battle with his one pass.
A10-Thunderbolt-Desktop-Wallpaper.jpg
 
I will probably never own a war bird, but if I did, it would be the Douglas A1 Skyraider.... as I am a little biased towards planes that saved the mud soldiers butts.

aw026_1.jpg

Agreed! If I ever win a lottery, I'd get a Spad. There's one listed at Courtesy... who's up for a Skyraider partnership? Hehehe...
 
POA, a place to learn something new everyday. I had to go look this up, kind of like George Washington's axe.

If you get a chance, watch “Red Tail Reborn.” Details the story of the P-51 in question. I believe it was wrecked again after Hinz’s crash. Probably not much original in the whole aircraft but an interesting story nonetheless.
 
If you get a chance, watch “Red Tail Reborn.” Details the story of the P-51 in question. I believe it was wrecked again after Hinz’s crash. Probably not much original in the whole aircraft but an interesting story nonetheless.

It was gear upped about two, maybe three, years ago in Dallas. It was brought back and restored again at Air Corps.
 
I will probably never own a war bird, but if I did, it would be the Douglas A1 Skyraider.... as I am a little biased towards planes that saved the mud soldiers butts.

aw026_1.jpg


The A10 is also one to remember. There is an unknown A10 pilot that saved a particular personal to me squad from total devastation and completely changed the out come of the battle with his one pass.
A10-Thunderbolt-Desktop-Wallpaper.jpg


Ah the Proud American. I have seen her fly many times. Always a treat. Nice Airplane.
 
It was gear upped about two, maybe three, years ago in Dallas. It was brought back and restored again at Air Corps.
I literally watched that happen at RBD. Happy to say that it all turned out well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Ah the Proud American. I have seen her fly many times. Always a treat. Nice Airplane.
The Proud American shows up in my video link above around 1:55 and a couple of other quick glimpses.
That plane is super impressive and hands down the most competently flown Warbird in my area (and I'm not slamming any pilots by saying that).
The day I took that video footage I got to do a couple passes in loose formation with Greg in a T-6. Some bucket list stuff right there.
IMG_20180818_114119-02.jpeg
The thing is a giant beast. For comparison the BT I fly is within 2" in length, wingspan and height compared to a T-6. That's a 9' prop on the BT and it looks like a twig here.
During a previous fly-in I watched the Anders brothers tear the place up together in the Skyraider and P-51. After watching I have to say I love P-51s but I would take the fat chick for sure.
 
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