Flying Tolerances

[Jaybird180]

Question for Instructors and wannabe Instructors

Let's say you have a student going for his IA and he has an autopilot in his airplane. Many of his hours has been employing said AP, so he's very proficient with it, but his hand-flying skills are barely within PP PTS standards.

What's your standard tolerance you like to see from students? What's your personal standard for your own flying? How much hand flying per day in IMC is reasonable for a rated pilot? IA Student? What techniques would you employ to improve tolerances and duration times?

 

[poadeleted20]

What's your standard tolerance you like to see from students?

What it says in the IR-A PTS.

What's your personal standard for your own flying?

What it says in the ATP-Airplane PTS.

How much hand flying per day in IMC is reasonable for a rated pilot?

Depends on the pilots personal level of fitness. I can do 7 hours or more, but some folks are whipped after 3.

IA Student?

I find that about five hours "flight time" (i.e., chocks to chocks) a day spread over two flights is about the limit for IR trainees.

What techniques would you employ to improve tolerances and duration times?

PT. MMMM, good. Gotta have it. Wanna have it. All day. Every day... [Thank you, SSgt T.E. McNeil, USMC, for that)

 

[EdFred]

My answers are pretty much the same as Ron's except before I sign students off they need to be at half PTS tolerances. If it's +/-200, they need to be at +/-100 for me to give them the go ahead.

 

[EppyGA]

Need to go out and fly without pushing the button and get good at trimming from the neophyte perspective.

 

[ja_user]

Is he barely within tolerance when you have him stressed and behind the airplane, or just anytime flying? Anytime flying he should routinely be about 1/2 the PTS, stressed he should manage it appropriately and be close if not within PTS.

Cure is to just make him go back to the basics without the AP for a while.

 

[James331]

My answers are pretty much the same as Ron's except before I sign students off they need to be at half PTS tolerances. If it's +/-200, they need to be at +/-100 for me to give them the go ahead.

Yep that.

Also for a student he shouldn't be using it at all, that's something he earns after he gets his ticket.

As for a IFR rated pilot, some companies require AP on at certain stages of flight.

 

[MAKG1]

Yep that.

Also for a student he shouldn't be using it at all, that's something he earns after he gets his ticket.

As for a IFR rated pilot, some companies require AP on at certain stages of flight.

Isn't that a bit excessive?

Sure, routine use for a student is not a good idea, but the check ride can go pretty bad if the student doesn't know how to use it, how to test it during preflight, or what its failure modes might be (particularly runaway trim).

 

[AggieMike88]

I find that about five hours "flight time" (i.e., chocks to chocks) a day spread over two flights is about the limit for IR trainees.

After doing a few days like this with Ron, I can attest to it. After we put the airplane to bed and went to dinner, I was mentally on fumes.

PT. MMMM, good. Gotta have it. Wanna have it. All day. Every day... [Thank you, SSgt T.E. McNeil, USMC, for that)

So THATs that you were humming under your breath as we took off on one of those long days

Ah, Johdee... entertainment and torture for those 3 mile runs in combat boots.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Isn't that a bit excessive?

Sure, routine use for a student is not a good idea, but the check ride can go pretty bad if the student doesn't know how to use it, how to test it during preflight, or what its failure modes might be (particularly runaway trim).

Agreed...The autopilot is part of the airplane, and a pilot should be proficient and knowledgable in its use. A pilot should also be able to hand-fly any operation required.

Where the real difficulty lies is in teaching a pilot WHEN to use the autopilot or hand fly the airplane.

 

[James331]

Agreed...The autopilot is part of the airplane, and a pilot should be proficient and knowledgable in its use. A pilot should also be able to hand-fly any operation required.

Where the real difficulty lies is in teaching a pilot WHEN to use the autopilot or hand fly the airplane.

Have the student read the manual and one flight and your student should be know that thing inside out, especially on GA planes they ain't that complicated.

As for training, its should all be hand flying.

 

[AggieMike88]

When Ron was training me, he made sure to provide ample opportunities to learn the ins and outs of the CNX80/480 and Chelton Autopilot combo. As well as lots practice for the various phases of IR flying. And plenty of practice when something goes tango uniform.

 

[TUPilot]

Have the student read the manual and one flight and your student should be know that thing inside out, especially on GA planes they ain't that complicated.

As for training, its should all be hand flying.

With the increased emphasis on CRM/SRM by DPEs it seems that effective use of the autopilot is becoming more important on a checkride. Obviously proficiency without the autopilot is critical--and I'd agree the emphasis should be on hand flying--but knowing and demonstrating autopilot use at appropriate times is not a bad thing.

Even at the private level I introduce my students to the autopilot. We rarely use it, but when practicing loss procedures I have no problem with someone clicking the AP on while the ascertain their position.

 

[MAKG1]

especially on GA planes they ain't that complicated.

Never used a GFC700, eh?

Not that I'd suggest a student pilot get anywhere near a G1000 aircraft. But there are some "fun" complexities with altitude capture and some Asiana-type risks with alt hold, VS mode, and approach, even for the KAP140 used in 172SP steam gauge aircraft.

An entirely legit question is to ask a student, "what happens if I'm in alt hold, I pull the throttle, and then hit the FD button." That happens to be one of several reasonable sequences to handle a sudden and severe engine vibration. It's also reasonable to ask the student to name all the ways to disengage the autopilot.

 

[James331]

Never used a GFC700, eh?

Not that I'd suggest a student pilot get anywhere near a G1000 aircraft. But there are some "fun" complexities with altitude capture and some Asiana-type risks with alt hold, VS mode, and approach, even for the KAP140 used in 172SP steam gauge aircraft.

An entirely legit question is to ask a student, "what happens if I'm in alt hold, I pull the throttle, and then hit the FD button." That happens to be one of several reasonable sequences to handle a sudden and severe engine vibration. It's also reasonable to ask the student to name all the ways to disengage the autopilot.

Which shouldn't be much more than reading the book, playing with it on the ground, and one flight.

Having someone who doesn't really know jack about instrument flying bombing around on AP defeats the point of the training. Yeah know how to use the thing, but if you arnt hand flying 98% of the time get a new CFII.

Flying glass, autopilots, FDs etc, or even complimentary VNAV is not a good way to build a solid foundation.

The fancy toys ain't that tuff to learn, being able to fly the plane, keep situational awareness without a moving map, trim, adjust power and mixture and talk to ATC, that's what getting your IFR is all about.


The GFC, nope some other more complicated units, yes, some simple STECs, yup.

 

[turbofan]

Yeah know how to use the thing, but if you arnt hand flying 98% of the time get a new CFII

If your CFII thinks reading about it on the ground then playing with it on one flight is enough to effectively incorporate it into habit patterns, get a new CFII.

 

[MAKG1]

Which shouldn't be much more than reading the book, playing with it on the ground, and one flight.

It takes more than that. Try it.

 

[frfly172]

The student should get some practice with the auto pilot. The first time you are single pilot IFR is not the time to experiment with the auto pilot.

 

[jordane93]

If it is part of the plane, use it. On the instrument checkride, the examiner might want to see you couple the approach. I'm a precise pilot. I like to be on altitude and heading with no deviation.

 

[James331]

It takes more than that. Try it.

I fly a autopilot equipped plane for work, the autopilot just doesn't boggle my mind that much

Especially for a simple GA airplane AP like a STEC 30 with ATL hold, it's not rocket surgery

 

[MAKG1]

I fly a autopilot equipped plane for work, the autopilot just doesn't boggle my mind that much

Especially for a simple GA airplane AP like a STEC 30 with ATL hold, it's not rocket surgery

GFC700 is now a common GA FMS/FD/AP. It's standard on new G1000 equipped aircraft. If you think you can learn that by reading the manual, playing on the ground, and flying for an hour, you haven't used one. Especially if you use "simple" to describe it.

 

[jesse]

If the airplane has an autopilot or a GPS the student needs to know how to use it for the checkride. Not teaching them how to use it until after a checkride would be a serious mistake as the examiner can fail them for not knowing how to use it and can ask them to use it.

 

[hook_dupin]

I use the autopilot as a reward for good performance.

"Show me +/-50' altitude on the intermediate segments, a well executed approach, and the right decision at the DA, and you can couple the AP on the next approach"

By the end of the training, good performance is a given... so then is AP usage.

 

[warthog1984]

Yep that.

Also for a student he shouldn't be using it at all, that's something he earns after he gets his ticket.

As for a IFR rated pilot, some companies require AP on at certain stages of flight.

I'd pity any students you have. When my check CFI played "fun with circuit breakers" before my signoff, I told him flat out that if it happened for real and I had an AP, first thing I'd do when troubleshooting is get it stabilized in a safe direction and throw the wingleveler on while I started troubleshooting.