Flying to Grenada

Ted

Ted

The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted
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Oct 9, 2007
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iFlyNothing
About a month and a half ago, a friend of mine who's been working on getting into med school called me up to say that he was accepted to St. George's in Grenada. We discussed how he was going to need Sam's Club-sized vats of SPF 9000 sunscreen since he's about as pale as they come, but then I made what seemed to me the obvious question: "Hey, you want me to fly you down there?" His reaction was enthusiastic, and it seems like it'd be a lot of fun and a good vacation for me.

It looks like Port Salines would be the airport to fly into. I'm also guessing that, since this will involve leaving the country, that I'll need to get my radio license and make sure the plane I take has its radio license before I leave.

What I don't know is confirmation of the above, what charts I would need (and what they're called/where to get them if they're not at Sporty's) and what else I'd need to know about planning and making a trip like this (obviously islands to stop at along the way from Florida would be important, and I'd probably plan very conservative legs so a number of stops). The intention would probably be to take a bit more time flying down and having fun with the trip, and then I'd head back more quickly.

Any advice that people can give me would be much appreciated!
 
Another question is on the GPS database. The Mooney has an IFR GPS in it, but I'm guessing that is not likely to have the points I'd need down that far. Obviously I'd want to be able to use the IFR GPS, is there anything additional that I'd need to do for it?
 
Well, I presume you're talking about going to Point Salines Int'l (TGPY) in St. Georges, Grenada. You'll want to get Jeppesen charts for the trip. That's an awful lot of over-water flying in a single, so you'll need appropriate survival gear, including a raft. You'd reduce over-water significantly by flying down South America and crossing over from Venezuela. You'll probably have political issues to deal with given either route, but I can't really speak to those. There is a VOR at the airport.

Some links on the airport:
http://www.psiagrenada.com/
http://worldaerodata.com/wad.cgi?id=GJ69164&sch=TGPY
 
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Dear Ted,

You're nuts. ;) That said, I'll help you with what I can, which isn't much. You're going to need more help than anyone can give you here. AOPA has some resources on international flying, and there are organizations that will help you plan the trip (including political issues, differing regs and procedures in other countries, dropping drums of avgas along your route, etc.)

Be forewarned, it'll be expensive. 100LL may not be available, so you'll have to pay to have drums shipped in. You may have to bribe people, or you may well find the airplane vandalized or customs may not let you in.

Personally, I'd rather go over water than deal with what you might find in some of the South American countries. My uncle ended up in jail in S. America for a while once, and he wasn't even sure why - He saw a bunch of people working on something, and he suspects that he came upon a secret military facility being built. They took his camera and all his film, among other things.

Ted DuPuis said:
Another question is on the GPS database. The Mooney has an IFR GPS in it, but I'm guessing that is not likely to have the points I'd need down that far. Obviously I'd want to be able to use the IFR GPS, is there anything additional that I'd need to do for it?
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What kind of GPS? I know that our G430 and our GX55 have different databases on them - The G430 has the "Americas" database with all of North and South America. The GX55 used to, but the database has been growing and the GX55 no longer has the full Americas database - It's down to US, Canada, and a few others. So, if it's a 430 you're probably OK. If not, you might be missing some things. Take a look at what the GPS says it has when it boots up. You may just want to contact Jeppesen to see what they say you have, and whether they have a database product for your GPS that includes everything you need.
 
Kind of a nutty idea, but what else would you expect from Ted :)

Personally I'd go through the caribbean, and hopscotch myself down to Grenada via the Bahamas, Hispaniola, PR, and all of the arious european owned carribean islands. A quick auto route from KPIT to TGPY sayys 2300 NM one way. Oh and if you do do this trip don't forget to land at St Barths :)
 
Dear Kent,

You've known I'm nuts for months now, but thank you for confirming that nothing has changed. ;)

My intention was to fly over water, for the legal issues you mentioned in Mexico and South America. I have spoken with a friend who works for the Police Air Wing in Turks and Caicos Islands. They fly Navajos, and he said 100LL is available there, and gave me an airport to land at. There is also 100LL available in Grenada. I will need two other islands with 100LL available (one between Florida and Turks, and one between Turks and Grenada), and so long as those have 100LL available, I should be set on that front.

I'll check out the AOPA resources on international flying and talk to them for assistance on planning my trip. I'm guessing if I check the AOPA website I can find out who to contact? If I can't have all of this planned by December (which is when my friend will give me a final go/no-go) I will have to get him to book a commercial flight and figure it out for another time.

The GPS in the Mooney is an Apollo unit, so I suppose the thing to do there is talk with the owner about its database, and see if we need to get another card with info. I can probably talk Missa into loaning me her 496, but that only gives me VFR navigation, and I want to make sure I'm good for IFR as well. Then again, I suppose it's quite likely that if there are IFR conditions, I may not be flying at all.

You're absolutely right, I know the trip will be expensive, but it seems like too good of an opportunity to pass up if the logistics can work. It seems like a lot of fun.
 
vontresc said:
Kind of a nutty idea, but what else would you expect from Ted :)
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Yeah, I'm not exactly known for doing things that most would call sane or rational. ;)

Personally I'd go through the caribbean, and hopscotch myself down to Grenada via the Bahamas, Hispaniola, PR, and all of the arious european owned carribean islands. A quick auto route from KPIT to TGPY sayys 2300 NM one way. Oh and if you do do this trip don't forget to land at St Barths :)
Click to expand...

Yeah, that was pretty much the idea. How much island hopping I want to do will depend on availability of 100LL, how much time we have, how much money we want to spend, etc. My intention was to allow a full week for the trip, probably going from IPT to NYC on Friday after work, leave for Florida on Saturday morning and spend the night down there, then figure out how to hop on down along the way. If we can arrive in Grenada by Thursday earlyish in the day, that gives enough time for us to get him over and moved in, and then Friday morning I'd head for home, figuring I could make it to Florida at least before having to stop for the night and then back to Williamsport on Saturday. Sunday as a day of rest and/or extra day of travel, should we encounter any delays.
 
Hello muddah, hello faddah
Here I am at Camp Granada
Camp is very entertaining
And they say we'll have some fun if it stops raining.
I went hiking with Joe Spivy
He developed poison ivy
You remember Leonard Skinner
He got ptomaine poisoning last night after dinner.



Couldn't resist.


Best,


Dave
 
Take me home, oh mudda fadda
Take me home, I hate Granada
Don't leave me, out in the forest where, I might, get eaten by a bear....

First album I got as a kid - Allan Sherman's Mother Presents, "My Son, the Folk Singer".
 
AdamZ said:
Ted, If you run Lean of Peak you can probably do the trip with only one stop;)
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Has the lean of peak fairy been whispering in your ear at night, Adam? ;)

I'm being conservative on the fuel stops. It'll work out better for bathroom stops, nevermind keep me happier with the flying over areas where running out of fuel would really, really suck. My friend agrees with me on this point, oddly enough. :)
 
Also I found out on the GPS database... the one that we have is US and Canada only. If I want to get a GPS card that will have the appropriate points in it on the way to Grenada, I'll need to purchase it myself. On the other hand if I want to use only the VORs or go VFR, I can probably borrow Missa's 496 and the VORs are still good to go. This is all part of my researching. :)
 
TMetzinger said:
Take me home, oh mudda fadda
Take me home, I hate Granada
Don't leave me, out in the forest where, I might, get eaten by a bear....

First album I got as a kid - Allan Sherman's Mother Presents, "My Son, the Folk Singer".
Click to expand...


Song was also on his album, "My Son, the Nut".
 
dparter said:
I don't think it's a nutty idea, but I think you're nuts if you actually do it. :)

--david
Click to expand...

And that part is up in the air at this point (pun intended). I'd give it probably about a 60-70% chance of happening. There's definitely the enthusiasm from all interested parties, and I'm getting some good information together. I just need to get everything I need to know figured out by December. This is not a trip you can just decide to make and leave for the next day... unless you happen to have done it before and already have everything you need legally to get it done.

It looks like I have approval from Club Mooney for the trip, and my friend in Turks and Caicos Islands gave me a suggestion on where to stop there. I'll need two more intermediate stops and then information on charts, legal requirements, etc.

I'll be sure to post what I find out, as it may be of use to others in the future.
 
Ted: You can manually enter way points can't you? That's what I did when I went to Cozumel from Florida. Some way points were in the Garmin DB; I entered others after looking at their location on the charts. Also, you know about Customs requirements returning and the Cuba overflight clearance procedure, right?

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Ted: You can manually enter way points can't you? That's what I did when I went to Cozumel from Florida. Some way points were in the Garmin DB; I entered others after looking at their location on the charts.
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Hmm. This may be a sufficient option, given the fact that where I want to go should have a minimum number of waypoints once I get out of the US. Part of it will depend on how much the database costs. If it won't cost a ton of money, it's probably worth getting it just to have.

Also, you know about Customs requirements returning and the Cuba overflight clearance procedure, right?
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Nope, and these are exactly the kinds of things that I would like to know! I've been out of the country and back a number of times before, but this would be the first time in a private plane, I've always previously flown commercial. Any info you have would be much appreciated. :)

Cuba wasn't on my list of places I needed to fly over, so it shouldn't be an issue but it is definitely something I ought to know about before embarking.
 
Do you still have an ADF in the Mooney? Outside of the US there are still a lot of NDBs from what I understand.
 
The Cuba overflight approval is just if you wind up having to overfly their territory. Just keep in mind if it applies. I know it's not in your plan but if things change and you need to go over their airspace, it has to be submitted in advance 48 hours I believe and must be approved before you overfly them. AOPA has a great write up on flying to the areas you're discussing.

I got the way points off either the Jep or DoD charts. Don't recall and I can't check while traveling. If you're getting Jep charts see if the way points you want can be identified by GPS coordinates.

I'm sure you know you need the customs sticker to leave and return to the US. Customs is also very fussy about you callilng them more than one hour before arrival on land line or sat phone to give them basic info they will want. Any FBO in the islands should be familiar and be able to help you. You might consider that when you look at where to stop on the way back.

Best,

Dave
 
There is a book you can order and get in a few days called the Bahamas and Caribbean Pilot's Guide. Has VFR charts and approaches to many islands. I have the 2007 guide from a trip last year to the Bahamas. Very worth while. Shows where there is fuel and gives phone numbers and services of facilities. You might even call ahead to be sure 100LL is available where you plane to stop.

Have you looked at insurance? You will probably need special coverage and many places, like Mexico, can require special coverage. My insurer told me if I land any accident with substantial damage: gear up or whatever, they wouldn't even try to recover the plane: just total it. Also, if something breaks, parts may have to be flown out and even a mechanic.

Best,

Dave
 
I see 100LL listed at TGPY Point Salines; no VFR night flight in the Bahamas in case you didn't know. There are fees at this airport you should know about. 473.444.4101 is the number I have for the facility.
 
The World Aeronautical charts are VFR charts with all the air routes on them. Shouild be easy to get. DOD covers the area as does Jep.

Best,

Dave
 
Ted I think the first thing I'd do is a rough calculation of the cost. Not sure if money is an object but I suppose at some point it does become and object for everyone.

Perhaps your friend will get lucky and he will get into Penn State School of Meidcine and you can make the 35 min flight to Hershey:D
 
Dave, thanks for all that helpful info. That gives me a lot to work with!

Adam, if he gets in to Hershey, that's no fun, they'll just drive him down for that. In the course of this I am intending on putting cost together and seeing what it comes to.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Dave, thanks for all that helpful info. That gives me a lot to work with!

Adam, if he gets in to Hershey, that's no fun, they'll just drive him down for that. In the course of this I am intending on putting cost together and seeing what it comes to.
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If you PM me with and e-mail address, I can send a trip kit as far as my charts go. Don't know how big the file would be. You'd need to give me the planed route with stops. I'll be at ABS the next couple days, but may have a connection there.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave, I will certainly do so once I have my route figured out. I suspect it'll be another week or two before I get that far given what else is going on. But thanks, I will take you up on that!
 
Can't give you much advise on the flying-in part, but I can advise you to NOT drink the Jack Iron which is sure to be offered to you at some point on the layover....
 
Med school in Grenada? Boy, you sure do hang out with some losers. Must be why you hang out on this board all the time.
 
steingar said:
Med school in Grenada? Boy, you sure do hang out with some losers. Must be why you hang out on this board all the time.
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As part of my charitable contribution to society, I seek out losers and provide them with good fortune by associating with them. ;)
 
Well, at this point the trip is looking like about a 90% go. I'm going to order my charts today or tomorrow. Jeppesen sells a complete IFR charts with approach plates book for the Caribbean, so I figured I'd get that, and then the standard VFR charts. I'd like to have both, especially considering that this is the sort of trip I've never done before (international, over lots of water, island hopping, etc.).

I talked to AOPA and they pointed me in the direction of Caribbean Flying Adventures, an outfit based out of Florida that specializes in helping people with exactly this sort of thing. Their website (www.carribeanflyingadventures.com) doesn't look all that great, but they do have a very useful members section that gives you info on airports, including reasonably recent fuel prices, and other bits on what you need legally. It's a neat resource, and Jim was very friendly and eager to help when I talked to him.

I've got a good portion of the flying part of the trip planned out at this point, at least I hope to figure out my route by the end of the week. We're looking at a planned departure date of January 10th, and I'll plan on getting back to Williamsport on the 18th. We ought to arrive in Grenada on Wednesday, January 14th, then I'll spend a full day there before turning around and heading back (3 days back). The return trip I'll plan to do more rapidly, but the trip down we'll take a more leisurely pace and have more fun with it. I'm also trying to plan fairly easy days to make sure that, while island hopping, we aren't arriving anywhere after dark. I'd like to arrive on the island during the daytime.

The schedule gives enough wiggle room where if we are delayed by weather, it won't be a problem, which is part of how I had it planned.

I'll post more info as the trip develops further.
 
Ted-

Definitely, keep us posted. Living the adventure through you!
 
Sounds like a great adventure Ted. Looking forward to hearing how you do. Have you gotten the Customs Sticker yet? Worked out how the new Customs stuff will work? That will be a big deal on the return.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave,

I need to call the customs sticker folk. They say that the sticker is good for one calendar year, and the wording indicates it's for 2008, 2009, etc. The application does not seem to list where you can apply for a 2009 sticker. I was going to call the phone number on the form to ask if I can apply for a 2009 sticker in advance. I don't want to wait until the new year to apply since we're planning on leaving on the 10th, but I hear that they are also very quick about getting you the sticker once you apply.

As to the rest of the customs stuff, I've read through it some but not in tremendous detail. I need to work on getting the sticker as well as the radio licences for the plane and for me.

When I have more of this figured out I'll try to post links and such based on what I learn on this thread so it will be easily searchable for others who wish to do this in the future.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I talked to AOPA and they pointed me in the direction of Caribbean Flying Adventures, an outfit based out of Florida that specializes in helping people with exactly this sort of thing. Their website (www.carribeanflyingadventures.com) doesn't look all that great, but they do have a very useful members section that gives you info on airports, including reasonably recent fuel prices, and other bits on what you need legally. It's a neat resource, and Jim was very friendly and eager to help when I talked to him.
Click to expand...

Jim Parker occasionally posts useful advice on the Red Board in response to queries about Caribbean flying.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I'm also trying to plan fairly easy days to make sure that, while island hopping, we aren't arriving anywhere after dark. I'd like to arrive on the island during the daytime.
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Which is good, because there are places where you aren't allowed to fly after dark, at least not VFR, and many of the airports close at dark. In the Bahamas, for example, the only night flying allowed is into Nassau (and maybe one other airport) and it has to be IFR. Also, under Bahamian rules the legal definition of night begins at sunset, not thirty minutes later as in the U.S.!
 
Yeah, where you can fly in the Caribbean at night is limited, and you do need to be IFR. However, since I do have my instrument rating (and was planning on filing all my flights IFR anyway, which was recommended to me as a worthwhile thing to do), that's not much of an issue. The airports being closed, however, would be. Fortunately, the sun will set later down there than it does up here this time of year, and I also tend to keep hours that will allow me to maximize my use of daylight for trips like this.
 
I just ordered my charts for the trip. I ordered the "Jeppesen Standard Airway Trip - Caribbean" as my primary item. This is supposed to be a complete set of IFR charts and approach plates for all the islands in the Caribbean, covering where I'll need to go. Apparently, only Jeppesen is publishing the approach plates for the Caribbean. Although Jim said he's not once done an instrument approach in his some 500 landings in the Caribbean, I don't want to be the one person to have to and not have the plates. So, it's worth ordering. It's a bit over $100, without the required 2" binder.

Additionally, I ordered the three WAC charts that were appropriate (CJ-25, -26, -27) and Operational Navigation Chart ONK K-27. The Operational Navigation Chart is required because the WACs don't go down to Grenada. I suppose technically I don't need them at all since I'll have the Jepp charts, but I wanted to have some visual charts as well, plus they're cheap. So, really no reason not to in my mind.

Next item on the list is going to be choosing my airports/planning my route out more specifically.
 
alaskaflyer said:
Jim Parker occasionally posts useful advice on the Red Board in response to queries about Caribbean flying.
Click to expand...
It might be a good idea to post on the AOPA forum. Several of the pilots who post there have flown in that area.
 
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