Flying instruments from the right seat

Fearless Tower

Fearless Tower

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Fearless Tower
What a royal pain in the arse!

So, I'm slowly working on the CFI stuff and right now, most of my flying these days has been doing practicing pattern work and commercial maneuvers from the right seat. I've gotten pretty comfortable flying the plane and talking through stuff while flying on the other side, so yesterday, I thought I'd shake things up a bit and log a couple approaches flying from the right. We had some actual here, but ceilings were relatively high and it was the typical thin marine layer that we know so well in SoCal so I was comfortable trying it out (I've flown IFR from the right seat before, but that was in VMC).

Let's just say I sucked - the two approaches I did were technically within PTS standards (never got more than 2 dot deflection and was within 100' on the altitude), but I was all over the place on the localizer and I attributed this to my scan across the panel. As I would move my eyes off the AI and DG to check the DME, adjust frequency/ pwr etc...I would sense the plane banking and sure enough looking back at the DG, I'm 20 degrees off my heading. I'd correct and the process would repeat.

Any CFIIs ever experienced this? Any recommendations for a good scan across the panel? Seems like flying the plane with my head looking to the side is what is driving me nuts.
 
It really depends on the airplane! An A-36 is rather wide but I had less problems than in a C172/182/205, where the engle or seat or something made it a bit more challenging.

:dunno:

The Gene Hudson "Only scan what you need to" approach helped me enormously. Now I just need to find the time to get the CFII check ride done. Not easy.

:no:
 
Even just practicing hood work for the CFI I had trouble knowing translating what I was seeing from an angle to what would be the reading from directly straight on - that is knowing if what looks like 030 degrees was that or really 020 degrees...
But I did a lot of moving my head over in front of the CFI in the left seat and checking the "look" of it...
 
It ain't as easy as a lot of folks who've never done it seem to think until they've tried it, and my experience is that it's a matter of practice. The more time you have in the right seat (even VFR flying), the easier it gets.

As for recommending a particular scan, I don't do that even for IR trainees. My experience (and the corporate experience of PIC) suggests folks develop their own much quicker than they learn a "canned" scan from a book or instructor.
 
Ron Levy said:
As for recommending a particular scan, I don't do that even for IR trainees. My experience (and the corporate experience of PIC) suggests folks develop their own much quicker than they learn a "canned" scan from a book or instructor.
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Good grief, Ron, you can't help yourself, can you?

:rolleyes2:
 
I haven't flown instruments from the right seat very often, but when I have done it, I was surprised to find that I actually did better than in the left seat, if anything. Perhaps individual strengths and weaknesses play a role. For me, I suspect that the unfamiliar position helps focus my concentration.

On the other hand, I didn't try landing from the right seat until I got training in it from an instructor, because it's a riskier situation than flying under the hood, and I had seen people flare way too high while doing it.
 
Palmpilot said:
On the other hand, I didn't try landing from the right seat until I got training in it from an instructor, because it's a riskier situation than flying under the hood, and I had seen people flare way too high while doing it.
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Yeah, no kidding...a CFI friend of mine was recently training a CFI candidate - on his first landing attempt, the guy pushed the yoke with too much force close to the ground/runway and the CFI had to take control to save the aircraft.
 
Welcome to learning PIC skills from the right seat. Now go out and try Lazy8s from the right seat. It'll take a few tries, just like the Pylon 8s. Now go do an OEI ILS from the right seat. That one took me about 15 hours to get right. Oh, and kill the right engine, so you have to bank left. Very disconcerting.

Although it's about teaching, you also have to develop right seat skills. The newness of the psychomotor tasking is very, very real.
 
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Ron Levy said:
It ain't as easy as a lot of folks who've never done it seem to think until they've tried it, and my experience is that it's a matter of practice. The more time you have in the right seat (even VFR flying), the easier it gets.
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It's a matter of practice and also recognizing and compensating for the paralax instrument error you might experience from the right seat (non-glass cockpits). My scan is the same, it's just that the instruments are on a different side. The distance my eyes have to travel is farther but that's about it. With any new maneuver or procedure from the right seat it takes practice before you feel proficient. Partial panel from the right seat on my CFII checkride was definitely a challenge but it can be done safely if you have enough experience training to do just that.
 
I'm sure I can't hold a candle to most of the other pilots responding here, but ... I made it through the CFI-I checkride, but only really started to get the hang of it once I was actually instructing from the right seat. Most of the time you're in severe clear with students, the pressure's off, they're doing the work, and you have a little room to think on your feet. I found I was getting better at it as I was working with students. It does make a difference.


Brian
 
Don't be surprised that your instrument work from the right seat is a bit lacking at first. Just like flying from the right seat in general, it takes a bit of practice since your references are different.

After a while, it won't matter to you which seat you're flying from.
 
Right seat in actual is also different than under the hood. I first noticed it on a non-instructional flight. We went with friends to OSH. It was my friend's airplane and he always flew left seat, so I flew my legs from the right. Needing to look left to the gauges brought the side window into a bit more than peripheral view and the cloud movement made it feel like I was always in a right turn. Got used to it pretty quickly but it was an interesting phenomenon.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Right seat in actual is also different than under the hood.
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The worst thing is right seat under the hood -- as you do for your CFI-IA training. Your head is sideways, and every movement of the plane or your head (to see other instruments) really messes with your vestibular system. Fortunately, once you've got the rating, you probably never have to do that again unless you let your CFI lapse.
 
And in my airplane, from the right seat, due to parallax, I cannot see the right upper corner of the DG, requiring a radically different scan..... sigh.
 
bbchien said:
Welcome to learning PIC skills from the right seat. Now go out and try Lazy8s from the right seat. It'll take a few tries, just like the Pylon 8s. Now go do an OEI ILS from the right seat. That one took me about 15 hours to get right. Oh, and kill the right engine, so you have to bank left. Very disconcerting.

Although it's about teaching, you also have to develop right seat skills. The newness of the psychomotor tasking is very, very real.
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Oh Heck yes... I took about 6 hours before I was "safe" in the right seat and another 6 before I was getting close to PTS standards for stuff. I had 24 hours of right seat time in the airplane when I took the CFI checkride, and I was comfortable and only had to "work" at a few manuevers.

Question - how difficult is the transition to different airplanes? Now that I'm comfy in the PA28, when I go fly the DA40 from the right, is that going to be a matter of an hour of practice or is it gonna be longer?

Also, does the body "remember" the left seat stuff and switching back and forth won't be a big deal?

I expect I'll learn the answers on my own shortly as I start getting "standardized" at my school, but would appreciate the opinions of those who've gone before.
 
TMetzinger said:
Question - how difficult is the transition to different airplanes? Now that I'm comfy in the PA28, when I go fly the DA40 from the right, is that going to be a matter of an hour of practice or is it gonna be longer?

Also, does the body "remember" the left seat stuff and switching back and forth won't be a big deal?

I expect I'll learn the answers on my own shortly as I start getting "standardized" at my school, but would appreciate the opinions of those who've gone before.
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I don't remember exactly when, but it became a non-issue at some point.

That said, I haven't yet flown the Chief from the right seat. I should, but I'm chicken.

:D
 
HPNPilot1200 said:
It's a matter of practice and also recognizing and compensating for the paralax instrument error you might experience from the right seat (non-glass cockpits). My scan is the same, it's just that the instruments are on a different side. The distance my eyes have to travel is farther but that's about it. With any new maneuver or procedure from the right seat it takes practice before you feel proficient. Partial panel from the right seat on my CFII checkride was definitely a challenge but it can be done safely if you have enough experience training to do just that.
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Amen. Once I figured out the paralax, it was pretty much gravy, that was one of the things I really appreciated about glass, I KNEW what my heading was without interpolating. Flying from the right never bothered me, I started doing that early on when my back would be too sore to scoot across in planes with only a right door.
 
Henning said:
Amen. Once I figured out the paralax, it was pretty much gravy, that was one of the things I really appreciated about glass, I KNEW what my heading was without interpolating. Flying from the right never bothered me, I started doing that early on when my back would be too sore to scoot across in planes with only a right door.
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<making note to use G1000 airplane for the CFII work>
 
TMetzinger said:
Question - how difficult is the transition to different airplanes? Now that I'm comfy in the PA28, when I go fly the DA40 from the right, is that going to be a matter of an hour of practice or is it gonna be longer?
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I find any single that I fly I can just hop right in and be comfy from the right seat, and it's been that way since I started CFI training. For twins, it took me a few more hours to be comfortable.

Also, does the body "remember" the left seat stuff and switching back and forth won't be a big deal?
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It's not a big deal, you'll do fine.
 
A CFII friend always flew his cherokee from the right seat, even when solo.
 
TMetzinger said:
Question - how difficult is the transition to different airplanes? Now that I'm comfy in the PA28, when I go fly the DA40 from the right, is that going to be a matter of an hour of practice or is it gonna be longer?

Also, does the body "remember" the left seat stuff and switching back and forth won't be a big deal?
Click to expand...

While I'm not a CFI yet, I have been making it a habit to fly different planes from the right seat and haven't found much trouble shifting. But, I'm probably taking a different approach than most CFI students - My flying club has a min time before you can instruct in the club planes. In other words, if I went and got the CFI right now, I wouldn't be able to instruct in the club. So, once I got the Commercial done, I just started flying different planes from the other side to get comfy - mostly 172s and PA28s since those are the most common trainers. Then, once or twice a month I'll go fly a twin from the left seat to stay current on the complex and IFR stuff. After the first couple of flights, the transition seemed totally natural.

As for the instrument thing, I guess it makes sense that I will get used to it. I remember the first time I tried to do steep turns from the right side - horrible. Once I got used to the sight picture, I was nailing them as good from the right seat as the left.
 
TMetzinger said:
Question - how difficult is the transition to different airplanes? Now that I'm comfy in the PA28, when I go fly the DA40 from the right, is that going to be a matter of an hour of practice or is it gonna be longer?
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To a DA-40? Longer if you are dealing with turbulence. That long wing makes it work to keep in the groove. I felt like I was hovering a helicopter the amount I was manipulating the stick. Instrument interpretation wise it was nothing, and that was my first flight in a G1000 plane, but man it just jumped all over the damn place in just light to moderate convection. What you have to get used to is that you will be correcting a lot more than in a PA-28. In smooth air, it's a piece of cake.
 
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Henning said:
To a DA-40? Longer if you are dealing with turbulence. That long wing makes it work to keep in the groove. I felt like I was hovering a helicopter the amount I was manipulating the stick. Instrument interpretation wise it was nothing, and that was my first flight in a G1000 plane, but man it just jumped all over the damn place in just light to moderate convection. What you have to get used to is that you will be correcting a lot more than in a PA-28. In smooth air, it's a piece of cake.
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Oh yeah - I've got TONS of DA 40 time but it's all left seat. I was just wondering if the left/right differences I've mastered in the arrow will carry over to other airplanes I can already fly well in the left.

The autopilot in the DA40 is a good thing - for the reasons you mention. But to be honest, the longest IMC flight I've done in one (4 hours of flying in actual with three approaches all to minimums) the airplane would roll around a bit but didn't stray much from the proper path. So while it wasn't the smooth flight (unless I worked very hard) it wasn't "let up for a second and your 20 degrees off course" either.
 
TMetzinger said:
Oh yeah - I've got TONS of DA 40 time but it's all left seat. I was just wondering if the left/right differences I've mastered in the arrow will carry over to other airplanes I can already fly well in the left.

The autopilot in the DA40 is a good thing - for the reasons you mention. But to be honest, the longest IMC flight I've done in one (4 hours of flying in actual with three approaches all to minimums) the airplane would roll around a bit but didn't stray much from the proper path. So while it wasn't the smooth flight (unless I worked very hard) it wasn't "let up for a second and your 20 degrees off course" either.
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Oh, the left seat right seat transition is nothing, I prefer right seat in the DA-40 because it puts stick and throttle in the proper hands,:D With a G1000 panel it truly is a "six of one, half a dozen of the other" deal.
 
Ron Levy said:
I was thinking of that picture of the guy standing on the right wheel and hanging on the strut of a Cub in flight.
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normal_hand_prop_j3_airborne_sized.jpg


This one?
 
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