Flying IFR legally with IFD440 / 540

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by Piper18O, May 27, 2019.

  1. Piper18O

    Piper18O Filing Flight Plan

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    If you have an expired gps navdata on an Avidyne ifd440 or 540, can you still legally fly IFR filing /G if you are flying to an airport with an ILS or a VOR approach? You would be flying en-route GPS but VLOC approaches. Doesn't the Avidyne also receive VOR/VLOC/ILS signals? Those would not require current GPS navdata, since they do not change.
     
  2. Walboy

    Walboy Cleared for Takeoff

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    You can use an expired database provided you verify the data is still correct. See the footnotes 2 and 3 to Table 1-1-6 in the AIM.

    I'm not familiar with Avidyne's boxes but there would be no issues using VOR/ILS with a Garmin device even if the navdata is expired. I suspect the same is true for Avidyne.

    Whether you file /G would depend on how well you have verified that the expired database is still valid.
     
  3. Piper18O

    Piper18O Filing Flight Plan

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    What generally changes with en route fixes? What else are they beside VOR's Airports, and intersections (along with DME's from or to VOR's). If you had current charts, would that suffice for verification?
     
  4. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    He would also need to check the AFM supplement for the model of GPS he is using to see if there is any language that would prohibit it. Not all of them allow it.
     
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  5. Ventucky Red

    Ventucky Red Line Up and Wait

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    This question came up recently at a Wings seminar as we have a local situation where a VOR is integral to identifying fixes on the approach is out and the NOTAM states "Procedure NA Except for Aircraft Equipped with Suitable RNAV System with GPS." (ILS or LOC 25 KOXR - FIM VOR is out of service if you want to check it in ForeFlight)

    After some spirited discussion on GPS Non WAAS and WAAS TSO c129 v. TSO c146 and a few other acronyms.... As it was put by the gent giving the seminar... "If the GPS required for any part of the approach then no it is not kosher.. if not, as long as they have an integrated VOR/Loc/Glideslope‎ receiver and a 30 day check... then you are free to use your very expensive NAV/COMM for the approach.."

    Please don't hold my hand to the fire on this... to me... I just assume to be in compliance and reduce the risk by keeping the database updated..
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2019
  6. N1120A

    N1120A Line Up and Wait

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    The nice thing about that approach is you can just use the RNAV 25 and get the same minimums, if you are /G.
     
  7. Ventucky Red

    Ventucky Red Line Up and Wait

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    This is true... but can you "legally" fly the RNAV 25 if your GPS database is not current? Which goes back to the OP question on the legality of using an expired database.
     
  8. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    It boils down to the authorizations in the AFM/Supplements. Do you need a current database to fly terminal procedures or just approaches? And where is the dividing line between those two?
     
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  9. chemgeek

    chemgeek Line Up and Wait

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    Practically speaking, it would be difficult to verify that every datum in the expired GPS database relevant to your filed flight was current in order to file /G. I suspect the FAA would take a dim view of any accident resulting from using expired data. Using the VOR/ILS capability of a GPS/NAV/COM is no problem as you can tune navaids by frequency, not by name. But in this case you will need current charts in order to do that. VOR stations DO CHANGE, by the way. They can be decommissioned (as in Lake Henry, which went from a VOR to a GPS waypoint) or renamed (as in Binghamton, BGM which was renamed to CFB so as not to conflict with the airport identifier). It doesn't happen often, but it happens. Intersection names change, too. If you are going to fly /G IFR, spring for a current database. Unfortunately, Garmin's databases are now much more cost competitive than Jeppesen. I dumped Jepp for my GNS430 when Garmin's databases came out and were about 33-50% cheaper.
     
  10. Ventucky Red

    Ventucky Red Line Up and Wait

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    I see what you are getting at.. you're making me think... stop that...:D
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2019
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  11. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    i thought I smelled smoke! ;)
     
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  12. Ventucky Red

    Ventucky Red Line Up and Wait

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    Well done there my friend... well done :)
     
  13. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    Most equipment switches from terminal to approach mode just before the FAF, by the way. And switches back to terminal when the missed approach is initiated.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2019
  14. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    This. While the FAA guidance generally permits a verification process, limitations in the AFM Supplement control.
     
  15. N1120A

    N1120A Line Up and Wait

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    If your database was updated anytime since March 31, 2016, yes. That is the last time that approach was amended.
     
  16. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    ...assuming your system allows it.
     
  17. chemgeek

    chemgeek Line Up and Wait

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    So, is the OP question theoretical, or is this an inquiry about how to save a few pennies? If you own and maintain an IFR-equipped airplane, and have invested the time to remain IFR-current, is the few hundred clams for nav updates really a showstopper for flying IFR? As fixed costs go for owning and flying an IFR aircraft, the cost of nav database updates has to be close to budget dust. Garmin sells annual nav database subscriptions for $299. Jepp is a little more expensive, depending on your options.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2019
  18. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    BTW, unless it changed recently or there are aircraft make/model differences this is from the Limitations section of the generic AFM for the IFD navigators:

    GPS/SBAS based IFR enroute, oceanic, and terminal navigation is prohibited unless current Navigation and Procedure databases are installed. ​
     
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