Flying Group (not club) - Ideas?

Sinistar

Sinistar

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Brad
TLDR WARNING: If you hate long threads I'd recommend you skip this one.

NOTE: This is not a Flight Club (planes owned by a group), just people wanting to fly together. There are no fees or charges of any sort.

We are at a small airport which has some really cool & fun pilots. So often I would hear: "We should all fly somewhere..." but when I follow up it turns out no one follows through. The majority of the pilots are in our small EAA Chapter. I am not in the EAA, but my wife is.

So I decided lets give this a try. But we have what I will call a gener-techno-challenge. The older pilots probably prefer telegraph (jk!), voice call or email. The youngest pilots want nothing to do with email or phone calls. Since not everyone uses social media - that's out.

1.First attempt: Email. Nothing really happened. Although I got a lot of ideas (some good) and I managed to get larger list. I purposely do not use the EAA chapter list as I am not a member. Main problem on the first try, just way too many emails to deal with and keep track of. Email is out.

2 Second attempt: Evite. Worked!!! We got 3 planes out with 8 people for a lunch run. Since there is a CFI in the group, one of the guy's daughter's logged her first time in her dads Cherokee :) Back to the evite...I didn't realize Evite also supports text messages. At the time I had 20 people on the list. It was 60% email, 40% text. Everyone loved it which was good word of mouth for the next one.

3 Third attempt: Evite. Aborted due to wx (MN - Feb)

4 Fourth attempt: Evite: Worked. Just 3 planes, 8 people again. Ran up to KBRD. Pretty good for MN winter flight. I list KBRD as a top 5 airport in MN - on field restaurant, nice runways, in the lakes area, close to the Twin Cities. I was schooled on the best way to get ketchup from a full glass bottle. The oldest person (82) had the best trick...that was good for a laugh :)

5 Fifth attempt: Evite: Worked!!! 8 Planes!!! 15 people. The wx turning nice really helped. I picked a short distance (50miles) so we got our first fabric plane out (Luscombe). Another flight lesson was also given. The coolest plane was the Chancellor :) He hauled up a few people who opted to not fly that day. I really liked the mix: Chancellor, Skylane, Cherokee, Luscombe, 152, BD4(?), Zenit, RV12. It took 3 runs in the old Crown Vic courtesy car to get us to the restaurant. On the way back, crammed in that car, a 80yo was sitting on a 70yo's lap up front. And they invited my rather attractive passenger (Victoria) to sit on their lap :) She would have did it. Those guys looked like they were 17 again...I hope I'm still out doing that when I'm 80!!!

20190323_131638.jpg

So its not like we have any major problems or anything. But I now am starting to have some questions for anyone else who has done/organized this type of fun flight group:

Q1.) Evite: Is there anything better? Other than some lame adds it does work. Out of 30 members I am seeing 25/30 read it. About 22/30 respond. Once in awhile I send out a text to a couple that I think just forgot. I have been asked to remove 1/30. The list is probably 75% EAA members. What I am missing the most is a place to store the pictures and video links afterwards. No one goes back to look at an old event.

Q2.) Although this is not a EAA event I always tell them they can use the pictures for their newsletter, etc. Hopefully we are not crossing any EAA lines/requirements?

Q3.) For each event I always indicate this is not a sponsored event and everyone flys at their own risk. Is there any need for any official legal disclaimer? Do I have a downside here legally since I organize it?

Q4.) I am a bit worried about event fatigue setting in. There aren't that many restaurants on/near fields within 150miles of us. Some planes can't go into the airports under the Mode C veil, etc. So I have been trying to think of other flights that don't involve food runs...at least until the fly-in breakfasts start. I would love ideas for other flights besides food runs.

Q5.) Speaking of the busy fly-ins, I am sure they will want to organize fly-in departures. But even this last flying event resulted in 2 go arounds as there was no taxi way and we converged on the destination faster than we had anticipated. I am wondering if we should not mix this group with larger fly-in events or run those days a bit differently.

Q6.) We depart sequentially, no "Flights of N". I haven't seen anyone yet taking off while someone else was taking off. We have had some cases of overtake where we could see the other plane at say 1000ft away and it felt quite safe. Too far for good pictures. Should we be doing something differently here?

...or just any other ideas in general? I'd love to keep it going!!! But I want to keep it safe, fun and have some sense of purpose.
 
So email doesn't work but sending an evite which I believe is sent via email does work?
 
I'm qualified to step in on some of these. I've done lots and lots of similar events in my life with cars, car clubs and motorcycles (not clubs). In fact as I'm writing this response my wife and I are multi-tasking, doing logistics for a small motorcycle gathering through the Guadalupe Valley of Mexico .

Q1) watching this space. Unfamiliar with e-vite, and want to learn what I can.

Q2) not qualified to have an opinion.

Q3) Yes. If I were you, should this continue, I'd spend a nickel with the family attorney for a general liability waiver. Have it signed by every participant and witnessed, (or whatever your counsel says to do). The copies of the waivers kept in a safe place, and filed after the event for (XX) years. Sorry, but it's reality. Injured parties don't need to be right - they just need an attorney.

Q4) Very real. For this event, 3x/year is probably the tempo, but I'll leave that to you. Minnesota compresses the good weather on you. Glad you're thinking about it. During your non-flying season consider a local potluck with some hangar flying and tire-kicking. The "Instant Pot" devices have made this idea better than ever before.

Q5) Another thing that supports my position on Q3. Making the group larger makes it worse, not better.

Q6) No opinion but, again, it supports my position on Q3. All we need is participant A and participant B to get together, independent of the group, and say to each other, "Hey, Fred... You know what we oughtta do?". If an accident happens, you'll love having the atty-approved form in your banker's box in the trunk of your car. In fact, you should mention this possibility to your family counsel and perhaps have some verbage specifically added.

That said, do you, personally, have a $1mm or more personal liability umbrella policy? They're somewhat inexpensive and cover a lot of WTF-type scenarios.
 
I don't own a plane YET go join in the fun and games but there's a "pilots club" type of group like you mention locally here at I66. They have support from the FBO/flight school as far as they all hang out at their FBO on Saturday mornings for donuts and whatnot, even on bad wx days a few guys are eating donuts and "hangar flying."

So, donuts are key it seems. Pilots like free food.
 
Rgbeard said:
I'm qualified to step in on some of these. I've done lots and lots of similar events in my life with cars, car clubs and motorcycles (not clubs). In fact as I'm writing this response my wife and I are multi-tasking, doing logistics for a small motorcycle gathering through the Guadalupe Valley of Mexico .

Q1) watching this space. Unfamiliar with e-vite, and want to learn what I can.

Q2) not qualified to have an opinion.

Q3) Yes. If I were you, should this continue, I'd spend a nickel with the family attorney for a general liability waiver. Have it signed by every participant and witnessed, (or whatever your counsel says to do). The copies of the waivers kept in a safe place, and filed after the event for (XX) years. Sorry, but it's reality. Injured parties don't need to be right - they just need an attorney.

Q4) Very real. For this event, 3x/year is probably the tempo, but I'll leave that to you. Minnesota compresses the good weather on you. Glad you're thinking about it. During your non-flying season consider a local potluck with some hangar flying and tire-kicking. The "Instant Pot" devices have made this idea better than ever before.

Q5) Another thing that supports my position on Q3. Making the group larger makes it worse, not better.

Q6) No opinion but, again, it supports my position on Q3. All we need is participant A and participant B to get together, independent of the group, and say to each other, "Hey, Fred... You know what we oughtta do?". If an accident happens, you'll love having the atty-approved form in your banker's box in the trunk of your car. In fact, you should mention this possibility to your family counsel and perhaps have some verbage specifically added.

That said, do you, personally, have a $1mm or more personal liability umbrella policy? They're somewhat inexpensive and cover a lot of WTF-type scenarios.
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Thanks for taking on all those questions!!! We do have an umbrella policy but I really need to review it for total coverage amount and make sure this flying stuff isn't somehow exempt. The other nice thing is that one of the "club" members is an Attorney and he likes this stuff so I need chat with him first and see what he recommends.

I like the idea of the reason to get together when we just can't fly. Not many planes launch out after it goes below +10F. And the December...February can be pretty demoralizing when it comes to fly up here cuz if it aint winds its ceilings and if its ceilings is freezing levels down low. Not many of have FIKI or de-ice or the IR.
 
The first rule of Flight Club is ...
Most of our excursions were spur-of-the-moment, or maybe the day before.
 
Can someone describe to me the potential liability of a meet up?

It's not like a competition, or offering rides, or anything

If we have a POA fly out and someone has an issue who is liable?

Can I Sue @eman1200 if something goes wrong at the river?
 
Kenny Phillips said:
The first rule of Flight Club is ...
Most of our excursions were spur-of-the-moment, or maybe the day before.
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I think for this group I need some advance notice otherwise the passengers vs who's flying gets tricky. For all of the events the invite was never posted more than 5 days out.

I first try to think of something interesting. Then I head off to Windy.com and see what the winds/ceilings look like 5 days out. If its looking good, I send off the invite. On one occasion someone else said something before I thought of it (which is nice!). I have like 3 events I'm holding out on so I have a few more I can queue up.
 
Ravioli said:
Can someone describe to me the potential liability of a meet up?

It's not like a competition, or offering rides, or anything

If we have a POA fly out and someone has an issue who is liable?

Can I Sue @eman1200 if something goes wrong at the river?
Click to expand...
Well, except the suing @eman1200 - I am also curious. Where is the potential liability in these pseudo self organized, non sponsored, non paid events or get togethers?
 
Almost every Friday and weekend when I was a new pilot, a group of knuckleheads would terrorize the South Bay Area with flights of between 6 and 20 C-150s. I learned about it from seeing them in flight and being asked to join in...

Considering there was no internet or cell phones when we did it, I guess we just relied on people dedicating themselves to showing up without excuses...

Yeah, it was that crazy bunch from Fremont Airpark...
 
Ravioli said:
Can someone describe to me the potential liability of a meet up?

It's not like a competition, or offering rides, or anything

If we have a POA fly out and someone has an issue who is liable?

Can I Sue @eman1200 if something goes wrong at the river?
Click to expand...


Sure. Fictitious story follows.

The participant, (We shall call him Eric, with apologies to similarly named people) and his wife learn of a meet-up through the local e-vite process.

Eric and his wife join in the festivities, and decide to take off to fly to Bumflake airport for the world-known chili. Joining the organizer (Rudolph) and eight others.

While on approach to Bumflake, a gust of wind happens, and he loses control. The plane cartwheels. His wife is killed, and he's injured, no longer able to work as the owner of his small business.

The local injury attorney with the TV ad and the catchy jingle takes this one on.

He files a citation to discover assets, and learns of Rudolph's personal assets. Namely, an airplane, a home with $300k in equity, an IRA and a 401(k), not to mention other personal belongings. Retirement assets are safe from this process. If Rudolph has a liability umbrella, it's discovered as well.

Figure the loss of life, companionship, business, injuries, pain, suffering, medical costs, etc., all begin to total in the millions

Now we argue that Rudolph didn't do enough planning for the trip, and should have known/advised the others that gusty wind conditions may have existed. Had Rudolph warned Eric, the tragic accident may have been prevented. (You're yelling at your screen now, aren't you?) Rudolph didn't take into account that Eric was a low-time rusty pilot. They build another facet to this that Rudolph could have been more inquisitive about the pilot's proficiency, and led him to the accident by the lack of attention to detail. They attorney, not being terribly familiar with FARs locks in on the ones he can, and presents his case to the organizer as a lawsuit.

Now we argue over time, a percentage of fault. It won't be zero. The system isn't built to easily attain a zero number.

Even five percent of a small number of millions is still a large number.

This is a horrific story I've built. And it doesn't happen often. But this is America.

You don't have to be right. You just need an attorney.
 
Rgbeard said:
Sure. Fictitious story follows.

The participant, (We shall call him Eric, with apologies to similarly named people) and his wife learn of a meet-up through the local e-vite process.

Eric and his wife join in the festivities, and decide to take off to fly to Bumflake airport for the world-known chili. Joining the organizer (Rudolph) and eight others.

While on approach to Bumflake, a gust of wind happens, and he loses control. The plane cartwheels. His wife is killed, and he's injured, no longer able to work as the owner of his small business.

The local injury attorney with the TV ad and the catchy jingle takes this one on.

He files a citation to discover assets, and learns of Rudolph's personal assets. Namely, an airplane, a home with $300k in equity, an IRA and a 401(k), not to mention other personal belongings. Retirement assets are safe from this process. If Rudolph has a liability umbrella, it's discovered as well.

Figure the loss of life, companionship, business, injuries, pain, suffering, medical costs, etc., all begin to total in the millions

Now we argue that Rudolph didn't do enough planning for the trip, and should have known/advised the others that gusty wind conditions may have existed. Had Rudolph warned Eric, the tragic accident may have been prevented. (You're yelling at your screen now, aren't you?) Rudolph didn't take into account that Eric was a low-time rusty pilot. They build another facet to this that Rudolph could have been more inquisitive about the pilot's proficiency, and led him to the accident by the lack of attention to detail. They attorney, not being terribly familiar with FARs locks in on the ones he can, and presents his case to the organizer as a lawsuit.

Now we argue over time, a percentage of fault. It won't be zero. The system isn't built to easily attain a zero number.

Even five percent of a small number of millions is still a large number.

This is a horrific story I've built. And it doesn't happen often. But this is America.

You don't have to be right. You just need an attorney.
Click to expand...
@Rgbeard - your stories are no fun. Making me think.....if a signed waiver is pretty iron clad (is that possible?) is this then virtually unlikely.

What is so weird is that the FAR's pretty much put everything on the pilot. I suppose it would be lots of $500/hr lawyer time to beat up the plaintiff enough to back down and even then no jury has to fully understand and honor the FAR's so then its an appeal and even more $$$$
 
Rgbeard said:
Sure. Fictitious story follows.
Click to expand...

The way you roll someone will be sued if an attendee gets food poisoning, the crabs, or worse.

Flag thrown. ********.

I wouldn't have been there if not for.......
 
Sinistar said:
@Rgbeard - your stories are no fun. Making me think.....if a signed waiver is pretty iron clad (is that possible?) is this then virtually unlikely.

What is so weird is that the FAR's pretty much put everything on the pilot. I suppose it would be lots of $500/hr lawyer time to beat up the plaintiff enough to back down and even then no jury has to fully understand and honor the FAR's so then its an appeal and even more $$$$
Click to expand...

No such thing as an "iron clad" liability waiver. I'm part of the motorcycle track-day scene. (Non competitive). They use an industry-tested liability waiver. Three years ago, a rider that was a total a-hole, got off course, and broke both legs. It wasn't anyone's fault but his own. He still successfully sued for millions, got a fractional settlement, and the organization that put these events together now no longer exists. It's sad.

Ravioli said:
The way you roll someone will be sued if an attendee gets food poisoning, the crabs, or worse.

Flag thrown. ********.

I wouldn't have been there if not for.......
Click to expand...

Yes, enough of a litigious jerk can sue anyone for damn near anything.

We can't stop living our lives in fear of these folks, but we sure can prepare for them. Enough armor, and ammo (waivers and insurance) goes a long way.
 
Young people don’t email? That makes me feel olllllllld.
 
Ravioli said:
Can someone describe to me the potential liability of a meet up?

It's not like a competition, or offering rides, or anything

If we have a POA fly out and someone has an issue who is liable?

Can I Sue @eman1200 if something goes wrong at the river?
Click to expand...

To be honest, the only reason I go to any of the SE fly-ins is that I’m hoping for a good reason to sue that fukr.
 
Sinistar said:
Q1.) Evite: Is there anything better?

Q2.) Although this is not a EAA event I always tell them they can use the pictures for their newsletter, etc. Hopefully we are not crossing any EAA lines/requirements?

Q3.) Do I have a downside here legally since I organize it?

Q4.) I am a bit worried about event fatigue setting in.

Q5.) I am wondering if we should not mix this group with larger fly-in events or run those days a bit differently.

Q6.) We depart sequentially, no "Flights of N".

...or just any other ideas in general? I'd love to keep it going!!! But I want to keep it safe, fun and have some sense of purpose.
Click to expand...

Q1: do what works

Q2: if you own the pics you can do whatever with them. If you don’t, you can’t give them away.

Q3: talk to a local law school or attorney.

Q4: what’s your goal? So long as you’re not fatigued, who cares? I

Q5: coordination is always a good thing.

Honestly, I’m a fan of the fewer rules the better. Why prohibit formation flying? It’s a way to get non-equip’s aircraft into controlled airspace. But this is a space for a well qualified aviation attorney to give advice.
 
TCABM said:
Q1: do what works

Q2: if you own the pics you can do whatever with them. If you don’t, you can’t give them away.

Q3: talk to a local law school or attorney.

Q4: what’s your goal? So long as you’re not fatigued, who cares? I

Q5: coordination is always a good thing.

Honestly, I’m a fan of the fewer rules the better. Why prohibit formation flying? It’s a way to get non-equip’s aircraft into controlled airspace. But this is a space for a well qualified aviation attorney to give advice.
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I'm glad you ended with the part about rules. I have purposely avoided making any rules. The first couple of events no one even mentioned them. This past one a few of the more "by the book" pilots started talking about what altitudes to fly, which frequency to talk on, etc. I told them I needed to prep my plane and would come back to see what they decided. No one decided on anything. I'm glad they didnt. The only thing I am striving for is a relatively close departure time with slower planes first so that when we arrive no one gets left behind for the lunch run or whatever.

I'm fine if they want to do formation flight or whatever. Actually, my biggest interest would be to selectively arrange a single photo session on each event. Perhaps get just one plane photographed while in flight per event.
 
Good thing tort reform has worked out well, or I'd be in a bucket of trouble in the fictional story where I'm the culpable agent. :)

Thanks for putting your evite experience out there. Makes me get ideas.
 
gkainz said:
sounds no different than the organized flyins that CO Pilots Association does every year... paging @ejensen
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Cool, I'm curious how they get the word out efficiently, how many events they run a year and anything about rules/legal would be nice to know.
 
Eric Stoltz said:
Good thing tort reform has worked out well, or I'd be in a bucket of trouble in the fictional story where I'm the culpable agent. :)

Thanks for putting your evite experience out there. Makes me get ideas.
Click to expand...

I should probably clarify one thing. The evite approach works...but its clunky. If it didn't have the SMS Text message feature I would have aborted. Its basically just good enough. I do like its tracking system though...especially the indication of how many have not read it yet.

Here's a another generational/technology example. I am sure a dedicated App for this type of planning would be perfect. But at least 30% wouldn't want to install the app or actually use it. So the "App" is also out (forgot to mention that in the 1st post).

Ironically the evite is so party centric, you have to wade through all these themes that are like for birthdays and wedding showers, etc. One day I found a pink theme with a Unicorn. I think I am going to use that on a future invite just to see who gets that its a joke.

Regarding the EAA: You would think they would have some nice scheduling system like this by now. If any group has such mix of technology users it would be the EAA. Is there some way a local chapter can setup events using the mother EAA system but make it look local. And if so, can it also use SMS/Text messages for the younger crowd. If that existed I would just hand it over to the local EAA and say "Use This". The only disadvantage there is that not everyone flying is in EAA or wants to do the meetings, build planes, etc.
 
Sinistar said:
Cool, I'm curious how they get the word out efficiently, how many events they run a year and anything about rules/legal would be nice to know.
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Eric was on the FlyIn planning committee for a number or years - hope he will be along to comment. Also, @murphey is active with COPA ... comments?
 
There used to be a few flight apps that worked sort of like that. SocialFlight is one, and includes a chat function which can be sent to a group of "friends", but I don't know how it would deal with the text/email issue.
 
SoonerAviator said:
There used to be a few flight apps that worked sort of like that. SocialFlight is one, and includes a chat function which can be sent to a group of "friends", but I don't know how it would deal with the text/email issue.
Click to expand...
Actually the "App" itself just does not cut it. It could be the best aviation planning app ever invented and it wouldn't cut it. A couple guys still have old flip phones. Several that have smart phones only use them for phone calls and maybe emails...but not texts.

If I had the time (and this would be a money pit) I think the solution is a dedicated website so that whoever wants to go look at pictures and current events can. Then add into it a evite like announcement tracking system. And add SMS to that it would be perfect. It would be free from adds and address the lowest common denominator (email/text).

One thing that is interesting is that the group had tried for years to get this going and never managed. It might have been part inspiration (me wanting to get something done). But I think the evite style approach was just enough to push it over the finish line.

Here is the coolest part. The older guys want to fly the most!!!! They have the most time and seem to thoroughly enjoy the heck out of it. Had I catered to the younger crowd I would never get the same dispatch rate. Just think of the irony...even though the younger ones want text messages they make up the majority who either never read the invite or never respond. You can't take either one personally. But I figured they would be the most responsive and it turns out they are also the most fickle.
 
Have a social hour during the week,with alcohol,discuss plans ,then text all parties . My group usually flys Sunday mornings and Thursday evenings during daylight savings time.
 
frfly172 said:
Have a social hour during the week,with alcohol,discuss plans ,then text all parties . My group usually flys Sunday mornings and Thursday evenings during daylight savings time.
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I think you missed the point...over half this group wants emails and the last thing you want to do is directly email them as it turns into a email cluster F nightmare as they then ask questions, want exceptions, ask to change things, etc. Maybe what you said will work for your group, but not this one LOL :)

Now the drinks thing is okay :)
 
You certainly can have a number of variations. I know of one group that meets on Saturday morning for breakfast and they rotate hangar locations. They have it worked out pretty well where if it’s not in your hangar, then you bring something - eggs, donuts, etc. By the way, only pilots cook and clean up so the non-pilot spouses don’t feel like they are being made into short order cooks. After breakfast, they go fly somewhere. During the summer, they will fly to museums, to the beach, or other locations and often combine it with a barb-que and then an evening flight back. Often they will fly to a location and stay overnight in hotels or camp out, and will fly for concerts or other entertainment. They have also flown as a group to fund raisers, e.g., 5 k runs/walks, Young Eagles, etc. Point is, with the numbers you are talking about there are lots of options that don’t make it boring.

As to the liability issues, in theory there should be none but as Rgbeard points out, that isn’t necessarily the case. I spent 30 years litigating some very questionable claims and the best approach is layered - waivers (to the extent they are valid) insurance and then some careful pruning out of the group those who continually display unsafe attitudes. Sounds like you have an opportunity to create something fun for yourself and others!
 
TCABM said:
Honestly, I’m a fan of the fewer rules the better. Why prohibit formation flying? It’s a way to get non-equip’s aircraft into controlled airspace. But this is a space for a well qualified aviation attorney to give advice.
Click to expand...

Amen. And, while I'm not an attorney, I would think that the safest thing liability-wise is no rules: You leave everything up to each person's own risk management. Otherwise, you just give them ammo in a lawsuit. "There are rules against A, B, and C, but no rule against D which happened, and if they had made a rule about D this accident wouldn't have happened, therefore they are liable" type argument.

But, I choose not to live my life in fear of lawsuits. You can be sued for anything, anytime, anywhere, justified or not, so if you're gonna get out of bed in the morning you might as well live the life you want to live, and not the life fear would push you towards.
 
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