Flying and Not Talking to Anybody

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

Final Approach
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Jaybird180
OMG....I can do that??? YES!!!

I learned to fly post 9/11 in the DC SFRA. I'm a child of the radio, it's required for security purposes to fly in-out of the SFRA. I also fly in the DC-FRZ AKA the Circle of Doom. No radio is no-bueno.

I'm getting excited about our upcoming Long XC to Atlanta (a bucket list flight) and thinking about doing this without my custom of using Flight Following. I've only flown once in my life without ATC services and that was because they were busy ignoring me.

I was looking over my routing scenarios - we may make a few diversions to visit with some folks along the way and I noticed on the Charlotte sectional the Gamecock MOA, but I seem to not be able to find the frequency for the controlling agency to contact if I wish to coordinate >D flight through. However, the Gamecock-A MOA has the agency frequency depicted. Is this a charting error or am I looking in the wrong location for the information? The pink line depicted is one of the planned routes of flight that will take me through it.

I attached the pics because I don't know how to post them in a thread. It would have been better, so if someone can explain how to do that too, it would be helpful for future reference.

I'm also going to have to make sure to brush-up on my airspace knowledge; no PDs on this trip because I'm squawking 1200. And I may even get bold enough to not file a flight plan, (maybe :D).
 

Attachments

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Remember for MOA, you don't NEED to talk to anyone to go through, but it's probably a good idea to.
 
You don't HAVE to contact anyone to cross an MOA, but it's a good practice.

It's almost certainly Center or a nearby TRACon.

And you need to get off Foreflight once in a while. The information you need is in the margin of the chart. It is NOT routinely charted for MOAs elsewhere. Or restricted zones either. All of the Gamecock MOAs use Jacksonville Center for coordination. The magenta box is for the Fayetteville Class C.

While it might be fun and is certainly legal to fly without flight following, it sure is nice to have another pair of eyes with radar.
 
FWIW, the Gamecock A MOA starts at 7,000. Go lower and no worries.
 
Both of the MOAs are listed in the lower margin of the chart. Gamecock A is Wash ctr, Gamecock I(or 1) is Jacksonville ctr.

No comms required. You can always call and ask if they are hot. If they are, adjust your altitude or direction to avoid, or you can still go through if you want.
 
The gamecock moas usually prove to be no problem wether you talk to atc or not.
 
Never hurts to check in a MOA... got a few buddies who operate in them frequently and they have some close call stories, both due to military guys making mistakes and ****-poor decision making on the part of small GA aircraft.
 
Hmm...I fly most of my time without ATC. I use Flight Following if I'm going a really long way or through very busy areas, otherwise I just fly.

Over the weekend I flew 300nm to Tennessee and back, and never used the radio except in the patterns at both ends. No harm befell me.
 
My cost-benefit analysis of your plan says that you lose far too much by not using FF.

Bob Gardner
 
This will happen in my lifetime, and I'm fairly old:

"Until further notice, all part 91, 135, and 121 aircraft operating in the NAS controlled airspace will maintain radio contact when entering any controlled airspace. Including VFR operations in class E."

Prolly by notam, with no oversight.
 
Be careful, you just might like the silence and peace.
 
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bobmrg said:
My cost-benefit analysis of your plan says that you lose far too much by not using FF.

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...

:yeahthat:

If you're flying through busy airspace you want the additional set of eyes for traffic advisories. If you're not flying through busy airspace they'll leave you alone except for frequency changes and altimeter settings, and you don't have to talk to them.

Much as I try, I cannot find one single reason not to request FF when going someplace.
 
This, then flip over to ifr enroute charts to get the actual frequencies, or NRST ARTCC if you fly Garmin. There's a list at the back of the AF/D too, but I find it to be less useful.

docmirror said:
Both of the MOAs are listed in the lower margin of the chart. Gamecock A is Wash ctr, Gamecock I(or 1) is Jacksonville ctr.
Click to expand...
 
bobmrg said:
My cost-benefit analysis of your plan says that you lose far too much by not using FF.

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...

Agreed. You CAN do it, but that doesn't mean it's smart to do it, kinda like a tattoo on your face... :D
 
I've flown through MOAs without a pep before.

If you choose not to talk to anyone (which is 100% fine) just keep your head on a swivel.

Enjoy
 
Flying Viking said:
:yeahthat:

If you're flying through busy airspace you want the additional set of eyes for traffic advisories. If you're not flying through busy airspace they'll leave you alone except for frequency changes and altimeter settings, and you don't have to talk to them.

Much as I try, I cannot find one single reason not to request FF when going someplace.
Click to expand...

As I said, I used FF in busy airspace or taking very long trips. But sometimes I just like the solitude of flying without ATC looking over my shoulder. If that means my chances of a midair goes from 00.01% to 00.03% on a given flight, I guess I'll take that risk.

I guess I'm just not a joiner. :dunno:
 
Your plan doesn't make particular sense from a cost benefit analysis. What does it cost you? nothing at all, if they ask you to do something, it's optional. What do you gain? Calls for conflicting traffic, weather avoidance, and most of all, you are already patched in with someone when things start going wrong and you need some information to act on.

You use FF for your safety, to not use it on a long trip with your family onboard doesn't really make sense. :dunno:
 
bullwinkle said:
Hmm...I fly most of my time without ATC. I use Flight Following if I'm going a really long way or through very busy areas, otherwise I just fly.

Over the weekend I flew 300nm to Tennessee and back, and never used the radio except in the patterns at both ends. No harm befell me.
Click to expand...



I did too landed at KGKT on Saturday and left Sunday..
 
bullwinkle said:
As I said, I used FF in busy airspace or taking very long trips. But sometimes I just like the solitude of flying without ATC looking over my shoulder. If that means my chances of a midair goes from 00.01% to 00.03% on a given flight, I guess I'll take that risk.

I guess I'm just not a joiner. :dunno:
Click to expand...

They are always looking over your shoulder regardless if you are FF or not.
 
Henning said:
You use FF for your safety, to not use it on a long trip with your family onboard doesn't really make sense. :dunno:
Click to expand...

Who said anything about my family? 90% of my flying is solo. If my wife is aboard and we are going somewhere more than 20-30min away, I use FF.

Do you use FF when hopping ten minutes to the nearest airport?
 
bullwinkle said:
As I said, I used FF in busy airspace or taking very long trips. But sometimes I just like the solitude of flying without ATC looking over my shoulder. If that means my chances of a midair goes from 00.01% to 00.03% on a given flight, I guess I'll take that risk.

I guess I'm just not a joiner. :dunno:
Click to expand...

Do you shut off your transponder too? If not, ATC is still looking over your shoulder even though you're not talking to them.
 
bullwinkle said:
Who said anything about my family? 90% of my flying is solo. If my wife is aboard and we are going somewhere more than 20-30min away, I use FF.

Do you use FF when hopping ten minutes to the nearest airport?
Click to expand...

That was in response to the OP.
 
Henning said:
Your plan doesn't make particular sense from a cost benefit analysis. What does it cost you? nothing at all, if they ask you to do something, it's optional. What do you gain? Calls for conflicting traffic, weather avoidance, and most of all, you are already patched in with someone when things start going wrong and you need some information to act on.

You use FF for your safety, to not use it on a long trip with your family onboard doesn't really make sense. :dunno:
Click to expand...

The entire flight doesn't make cost-benefit sense. You know how easy it would be for me to hop a commercial to Atlanta!?!?! This trip will cost about 2.5-3x more than that in time and money.

I understand and appreciate the reduced safety of not flying with FF. As stated before I always do so when ATC is able.

Since my wife will accompany me on this one, we would have a lot of time to talk, which is something that has been in reduced supply lately and quite frankly I miss it. Since I routinely monitor 121.5 on my 2nd radio, if I use FF, my engagement in our conversation will be reduced as I will have to continue to listen for my tail number on the radio. Another poster said, they'd likely leave me alone unless they had something for me, so I'll take that as something in favor of keeping my tradition of squawking and talking.

I'm going to continue to think about this. In all high-probability, I will follow my customs. No need to add additional risk to what is supposed to be a fun adventure.

BTW, how common is Wx avoidance on FF? My guess is pretty low considering that I'm VFR only. Maybe they'll give me SigWx that 'just popped up', but that's about all I can expect.
 
I'm a bit surprised you've never flown over the Appalachians or some other place far from the DC area. Once you get away from busy airspace, ATC is very, very, VERY quiet on flight following. You hear nothing.

I've had multiple situations where it had been so long since I'd heard from Center that I called in a comm check to make sure I was still in contact. That means complete radio silence. If I can hear Center talking to anyone, I know they can still talk to me.
 
bullwinkle said:
As I said, I used FF in busy airspace or taking very long trips. But sometimes I just like the solitude of flying without ATC looking over my shoulder. If that means my chances of a midair goes from 00.01% to 00.03% on a given flight, I guess I'll take that risk.

I guess I'm just not a joiner. :dunno:
Click to expand...

If you think that ATC is looking over your shoulder, think again. Read AIM 4-1-17....vectors MAY be provided if necessary for air safety (converging tracks). Everything else is initiated by the pilot. Controllers have their hands full just dealing with IFR traffic.

Bob Gardner
 
Jaybird180 said:
BTW, how common is Wx avoidance on FF? My guess is pretty low considering that I'm VFR only. Maybe they'll give me SigWx that 'just popped up', but that's about all I can expect.
Click to expand...

Um - maybe none. I've had controllers on FF try to put me in the soup while VFR.
 
MAKG1 said:
I'm a bit surprised you've never flown over the Appalachians or some other place far from the DC area. Once you get away from busy airspace, ATC is very, very, VERY quiet on flight following. You hear nothing.
Click to expand...
This trip will exceed my current longest of D> KCLT
 
So I know I will be deeply unpopular for saying this but here goes...

Planes flying around and not talking to anyone is clearly a recipe for disaster. I know this has been done for almost a hundred years and is part of the culture but at some stage we need to bring responsibility and control to the aviation field like we have else where. Part 91 in particular needs to be tightened up. Those of you operating under Parts 121 and 135, you are very well regulated and the safety record would seem to back that up. The "cowboy" mentality that plagues Part 91 needs to be tightened up. What in particular? Everyone should be talking to ATC. No VFR flights without a flight plan. Transponders required for everyone with traffic avoidance systems (thank god for ADS-B being mandated by 2020 but it needs to be expanded to everyone). Experimental planes need to be made illegal. By all means overhaul the part 23 certification process but these morons and their unsafe kit planes need to be stopped.

Also no more night VFR.

Social responsibility. It is about time that some of you learn to exercise it!
 
plank said:
So I know I will be deeply unpopular for saying this but here goes...

Planes flying around and not talking to anyone is clearly a recipe for disaster. I know this has been done for almost a hundred years and is part of the culture but at some stage we need to bring responsibility and control to the aviation field like we have else where. Part 91 in particular needs to be tightened up. Those of you operating under Parts 121 and 135, you are very well regulated and the safety record would seem to back that up. The "cowboy" mentality that plagues Part 91 needs to be tightened up. What in particular? Everyone should be talking to ATC. No VFR flights without a flight plan. Transponders required for everyone with traffic avoidance systems (thank god for ADS-B being mandated by 2020 but it needs to be expanded to everyone). Experimental planes need to be made illegal. By all means overhaul the part 23 certification process but these morons and their unsafe kit planes need to be stopped.

Also no more night VFR.

Social responsibility. It is about time that some of you learn to exercise it!
Click to expand...


Let me be the first to say go **** yourself. :D

How's that for social responsibility? :rofl:

You can sure tell who rents and who owns airplanes. ;)
 
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Geezus it is just flight following, they do less then class d towers and we know how well those work. If you don't exercise your freedom to fly without radio permission you will lose it. You guys are closer aligned with Plank then you realize.
 
Geico266 said:
Let me be the first to say go **** yourself. :D

How's that for social responsibility? :rofl:

You can sure tell who rents and who owns airplanes. ;)
Click to expand...

Lol! The guy just joined POA this month too. Precious.
 
plank said:
So I know I will be deeply unpopular for saying this but here goes...

Planes flying around and not talking to anyone is clearly a recipe for disaster. I know this has been done for almost a hundred years and is part of the culture but at some stage we need to bring responsibility and control to the aviation field like we have else where. Part 91 in particular needs to be tightened up. Those of you operating under Parts 121 and 135, you are very well regulated and the safety record would seem to back that up. The "cowboy" mentality that plagues Part 91 needs to be tightened up. What in particular? Everyone should be talking to ATC. No VFR flights without a flight plan. Transponders required for everyone with traffic avoidance systems (thank god for ADS-B being mandated by 2020 but it needs to be expanded to everyone). Experimental planes need to be made illegal. By all means overhaul the part 23 certification process but these morons and their unsafe kit planes need to be stopped.

Also no more night VFR.

Social responsibility. It is about time that some of you learn to exercise it!
Click to expand...

Well, Houston - we've found the problem and it's right here. Hey, I know, lets put tracking systems on every car, and keep them under positive control too. People in cars run into each other at a rate that's probably a factor of 100 higher. It's only fair that all drivers need to be brought under federal control.

Heck, I've seen people run into each other on bikes, so bikes will need to be monitored as well. Walking, running - that's pretty dangerous, so we'll need federal chips embedded in each citizen at the age of 7.

Of course it's ridiculous. Our country was founded on the idea that we are a free people. Now - we've got a whole cadre like this. The 'you must be controlled' mindset. I can only hope there's a violent revolution before I die so I can take some of these ***holes with me.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Geezus it is just flight following, they do less then class d towers and we know how well those work. If you don't exercise your freedom to fly without radio permission you will lose it. You guys are closer aligned with Plank then you realize.
Click to expand...

I was a bit flummoxed with the OP came on and said he was going to temp fate by flying without talking. As if someone was going to take the nipple out of his mouth. But no - I deferred my usually commentary on being a responsible adult, and taking care of your own business and tried to help.

In the back of my mind though, I was wondering how long will it be before I'm the outlier that is no longer allowed to operate without positive control. Make no mistake about it - we are talking about positive control. We will lose almost 50% of the VFR airspace in 2020 without direction. More is coming.
 
Jaybird180 said:
BTW, how common is Wx avoidance on FF? My guess is pretty low considering that I'm VFR only. Maybe they'll give me SigWx that 'just popped up', but that's about all I can expect.
Click to expand...
We were on FF this past weekend and ATC alerted us to a pirep for mod turb that had been reported not far from our position.

Hate to be the pragmatist, but on a trip like you are planning, if you don't use FF, file a VFR Flight Plan and report in to FSS every so often so someone knows where you are along the route.
 
Ignoring the troll...

I understand where Andy is coming from.

I spent a lot of time in the IFR system, so I'm comfortable with ATC.

But often I just don't want the added chatter and frequency changing, so I just monitor 121.5.

If at some point I feel a need for flight following, I'll pick it up, and once I have it I usually keep it to the destination.

Finally, in my Light Sport I sometimes fly along around 1,000' to 1,500' AGL, and ATC coverage is often spotty down there.
 
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