Flying a PA-28-180

Snaggletooth said:
So, Say your a new Cherokee Pilot :D and you forget to switch the tanks and its got a 40 minute difference rather than your max limit of 30. Do you burn the other tank for 40 to balance it?
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Really your call. At a fuel burn of +/-8GPH for 40 minutes, that's only about 5 gallons, say 32 pounds. You might not even notice the change. Whether you want to do a fuel tank change on 30 minute or 60 minute intervals is more function of your own comfort level, just be consistent and pay attention to keep them reasonalby equal. My personal preference is to make sure, before the flight, that there is enough fuel to complete the flight, plus reserve, plus whatever comfort factor you want to have.

Gary
 
Snaggletooth said:
So, Say your a new Cherokee Pilot :D and you forget to switch the tanks and its got a 40 minute difference rather than your max limit of 30. Do you burn the other tank for 40 to balance it?
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No biggie. I fly a Cherokee 6 with tip tanks, and I burn half hour on th tips, which means you are out-of-balance by 1/2 hour on the tips. The longer moment arm makes it a lot more of an issue than the mains. It is noticeable, but not scary. Taking off with an empty tip tank can be too exciting, but that is easy to avoid (you know, by doing a pre-flight).

Don't sweat the Cherokee. Its a trainer. It won't bite you any more than a C-172 will. The handling of the cherokee is nothing to worry about. Just always fly it the way you were taught and there will be no issues. Plus, you are now a certified pilot and you need to expand you abilities. Managing two tanks and a fuel pump is a pretty small step. Next, you'll want a constant speed prop, then disappearing landing gear. Don't let any of these scare you. If you want to be cautious, get an instructor and don't do it yourself until you are comfortable. But please don't let the new stuff deter you.
 
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Snaggletooth said:
So, Say your a new Cherokee Pilot :D and you forget to switch the tanks and its got a 40 minute difference rather than your max limit of 30. Do you burn the other tank for 40 to balance it?
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If you forget for too long you'll start to feel a heavy wing. Then switch it. No big deal.
 
After learning in a C-172 and getting some time in a C-182, 2 friends and I started shopping to partner in a plane. For some reason we leaned towards Cherokees. I got checked out on a local Warrior and was hooked. Ended up buying a '64 Hershey bar wing PA28-180. Loved every minute of it. A few landings with a CFI to work out the sight picture in the flare & that's about it.
The extra 20-30 hp is very much worth the extra gallon/hr. Have fun!
 
It flies pretty much the same as Brand C. "Cow like" comes to mind. No worries.

:D
 
Thank guys. I can't wait.
Maybe I'll start looking for a Plane to lease/buy soon. Renting suxs but thats JMHO. lol
 
Skip Miller said:
I'm not sure I understand, Jesse. If you run out of fuel in one tank, the remaining fuel is in the other one! :D:D
That's not too hard to remember.....

-Skip
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The problem is that once you get really low you don't know how much is really in either tank anymore because you've just been switching back and forth a bunch all throughout the flight. So once it does quit you might not know the other tank has fuel OR you might not have time to switch.

If you look through the NTSB reports there are some pilots who have been bit by this. They either didn't have time to switch or they didn't think the other tank had fuel. You can try to never get low enough on fuel where you run into this problem but **** can happen. I just don't want to end up on the ILS with minimum fuel across several different tanks with imprecise fuel gauges.

I burn each tank longer simply so that I avoid that problem. I run the tank dry in a controlled fashion at a high altitude. With 1.5 hours of fuel remaining I'll be on my last tank and I'll know the other tank is completely dry. Works almost like a reserve on a motorcycle. Once I run the first tank dry it's time to make a decision about what to do with the remaining 1.5ish hours.
 
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jesse said:
I burn each tank longer simply so that I avoid that problem. I run the tank dry in a controlled fashion at a high altitude. With 1.5 hours of fuel remaining I'll be on my last tank and I'll know the other tank is completely dry. Works almost like a reserve on a motorcycle. Once I run the first tank dry it's time to make a decision about what to do with the remaining 1.5ish hours.
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That's how I run the Aztec. However, that's different since I have 4 tanks and the engines are pulling from each side at the same time, and all four tanks are considered mains.
 
jesse said:
The problem is that once you get really low you don't know how much is really in either tank anymore because you've just been switching back and forth a bunch all throughout the flight. So once it does quit you might not know the other tank has fuel OR you might not have time to switch.

If you look through the NTSB reports there are some pilots who have been bit by this. They either didn't have time to switch or they didn't think the other tank had fuel. You can try to never get low enough on fuel where you run into this problem but **** can happen. I just don't want to end up on the ILS with minimum fuel across several different tanks with imprecise fuel gauges.

I burn each tank longer simply so that I avoid that problem. I run the tank dry in a controlled fashion at a high altitude. With 1.5 hours of fuel remaining I'll be on my last tank and I'll know the other tank is completely dry. Works almost like a reserve on a motorcycle. Once I run the first tank dry it's time to make a decision about what to do with the remaining 1.5ish hours.
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When I had the Cherokee, I would run

Right .5 (2.0 remaining)
Left 1.0 (1.5 remaining)
Right 1.0 (1.0 remaining)
Left until empty.

That would leave me with an hour of fuel in the right tank. That also tells me exactly what my fuel burn is, because I know how long it took the left tank to go dry. So I know almost exactly how much fuel I have left, and my wing never got too heavy. No autopilot, so the heavy wing gets annoying.
 
How do yall keep track of time? Just a glance at your watch, or do you have a timer you set for the switch times?
 
Snaggletooth said:
How do yall keep track of time? Just a glance at your watch, or do you have a timer you set for the switch times?
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You start some kind of timer when you take off, right? Just use that one and switch at whatever interval you like.
 
Snaggletooth said:
How do yall keep track of time? Just a glance at your watch, or do you have a timer you set for the switch times?
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Another trick is to switch to the left tank at :45 past the hour
and the right tank at :15 past the hour.

Of course, that makes more sense when you have an analog clock
in the panel....
 
If the bird is equipped with a 430, use the timer function. Works like a charm and once set up you don't have to mess with it again. If not equipped, the clock hand method mentioned earlier works great.
 
Snaggletooth said:
How do yall keep track of time? Just a glance at your watch, or do you have a timer you set for the switch times?
Click to expand...
I use the clock in the panel. When the minute hand point right, I am on the right tank, when it points left I am on the left tank. I mark down each switch on a pad of paper and track my fuel usage.
 
Snaggletooth said:
How do yall keep track of time? Just a glance at your watch, or do you have a timer you set for the switch times?
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The GPS in the plane I use has a tank timer. After flying long enough, I start switching the tank within a few seconds of the GPS telling me (without being reminded)
 
Many portable GPSes have timer functions too.
Note that the tank switching isn't unique to low-wings. You need to switch in a 210, too.

The other difference that you'll find is needing to get in on the passenger side and crawl over the seat! (Though there are low wings with doors on both sides too, like the Beech Sierra/Sundowner and the Diamonds.
 
jesse said:
There isn't a whole lot different. There will be two fuel tanks and you can only burn off one at a time. So you have to put a little more thought towards managing fuel.

The fuel system isn't gravity fed since the wings are on the bottom which means that if the mechanical fuel pump dies the engine will quit. There is an electric fuel pump that provides redundancy. You generally only operate it during the critical phases of flight (takeoff, landing).

The PA-28-180 is a rather draggy airframe and is pretty damn forgiving. You'll catch onto it pretty quickly.

Personally...I'd rather fly a 172.
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I owned a 74 Cherokee 180. Loved it! Great airplane. Gotta respectfully disagree on the 172 preference. Stable ,forgiving.......flair on the landing feels different, with a little more ground effect than a 172.......enjoy !
 
jesse said:
The problem is that once you get really low you don't know how much is really in either tank anymore because you've just been switching back and forth a bunch all throughout the flight. So once it does quit you might not know the other tank has fuel OR you might not have time to switch.
Click to expand...
Did you miss the smilies? -Skip
 
Armcorp said:
I owned a 74 Cherokee 180. Loved it! Great airplane. Gotta respectfully disagree on the 172 preference. Stable ,forgiving.......flair on the landing feels different, with a little more ground effect than a 172.......enjoy !
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I've flown both quite a bit. I'd rather fly a 172. I tend to fly a Cherokee 180 more though as the flight school isn't nearly as unnecessarily restrictive as the one with 172(s).
 
For local training flights, I change fuel tanks every half hour. Watch your approach and landing speeds, if you come in a little fast, you can float a long way down the runway in ground effect. Do not try to spin it, bad idea.

For soft field set two notches of flaps then as you pick up speed, relax back pressure a little, let the nose come up just a little off the ground while you build speed. Once airborne, keep it in ground effect until your up to 52 knots.

Landing soft field, the nose wants to get right down with the mains. It takes some practice to get a soft field landing right in a PA-28.

John
 
Snaggletooth said:
How do yall keep track of time? Just a glance at your watch, or do you have a timer you set for the switch times?
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I always note my time start and time off. I know what time depending on the fuel load I need to be back on the ground. Always shorten that window for headwinds. I like at least 1.5 reserve and feel warm and fuzzy with 2 hours.
 
Tomorrow.
I'm renting a Cessna, to go fly a Piper. How messed up is that?
 
Snaggletooth said:
Tomorrow.
I'm renting a Cessna, to go fly a Piper. How messed up is that?
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Eh. Happens. I really don't have a preference. The view from base to final in a Cessna doesn't bother me anyway because I have my head way out over the panel looking at the runway anyway.

The throttle quadrant on the Piper line is cooler than the Cessnas too. Plus, I think all of the Warriors are still carburetor equipped, which makes for easier starts...I still haven't gotten the "feel" for starting the 172S I'm flying now...it's getting alot better though, haven't had a flooding issue since the first or second time I tried it.

Let us know!
 
Thought I'd throw my $0.02 in (that's all I've got left after my annual)...

I've owned 3 low-wings ('64 Cherokee 160, '46 Ercoupe, '00 Mustang II) and 1 high-wing (my current Shortwing Piper B)). I had the Mustang II when I got married and immediately needed a 4-place (ready-made family). It took me 1.5 years to part with the Mustang and I was looking for a Cherokee 180 because they are:


  • Faster than a 172 from the same time period
  • Will carry more than a 172 (early models around 1000lb useful load)
  • Typically less expensive than a comparably equipped 172
  • Enjoyed my 160 (but didn't need 4-place at time)
  • Don't have to climb to fuel.
  • Like the feel of flying a low-wing (I have between 250 - 300 hours in Cessnas...150, 172, 206)
I bought the TriPacer because it was based at my field and was in good shape and was substantially less than a 180. After I finished upgrading the panel this year, I wish I could have figured out how to pull off buying a 180.

The pluses of a high-wing are:


  • Built in shade
  • Your passengers can see the ground
  • 2 doors for the 172
I didn't mention not changing tanks because the TriPacer needs to be changed. When I change tanks I use the tach time because I don't care how many minutes have gone by, I care how many minutes the tach/engine think have gone by (typically 2400rpm for 1 hour = 1 hour on tach). Keep a log with:


  • Your start tach time
  • The tank you start on
  • Time burned this "leg"
  • Fuel burned this "leg"
  • Total time burned
  • Total fuel burned
  • Fuel remaining
I'm "fortunate" that the TriPacer burns 10gph so the math is easy for me. If you figure 10gph in the 180 it won't be bad for you. Just try and change within gliding distance of a suitable landing site and you get used to it...sorta :eek: (~300 hours tank changing time).

If I had to choose between a 180 and 172, I go the 180 route. But that's just me. They are good planes but I like the pluses better. They both fly well, fuel changing will become a non-issue in the 180 (though the 1st few offer a pucker factor).

Good luck with your choice!

Chad
 
Well, I just got back from my afternoon flying trip. I got the sign off to rent the Cherokee, so I can go back and fly it anytime now! I LOVED IT! I can't wait till I can fly it again. It was leaps and bounds better than a 172 IMO. The extra power is had was awesome. I liked how much easier it was to control in Flight, and on the Ground.

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The Cherokee 180 and Archer are one of General Aviations all time greats. It really has no vices and can do a lot of what anyone needs in an airplane. You will love it.
 
I'm hooked already.

Guess this means I'm a Low Wing convert ehh?
 
Being signed off on two different types of planes, and at two different FBOs just means you'll be spending lots of money to keep current or flying a signoff before you go anywhere. It does give you more options when you want to go flying though.
Enjoy flying the Piper. I think they're fun.
 
Mostly, I wanted to fly the Cherokee so I would know if I liked it. I plan to look in to Owning/leasing a Plane soon, and I was thinking about doing so in a Cherokee. So being that this one was the closest one to me that I could rent, I went up in it.

I found me a nice 140 for $21,000, and a nice 180 for $30,500!
 
Snaggletooth said:
I found me a nice 140 for $21,000, and a nice 180 for $30,500!
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Man, prices are low. This is a great time to go for it.

Start looking for a good A&P/AI to do your pre-buy. Then see if you can work out owner assisted annuals. We do ours with the local A&P and it works out great. Most of the labor in an annual is just unscrewing panels (approximately a billion screws), which I am highly qualified to complete. The A&P covers the inspections and paperwork. We managed to do the last annual on the Cherokee Six in a little over 2 weeks.
 
Snaggletooth said:
I found me a nice 140 for $21,000, and a nice 180 for $30,500!
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BTW, what are you plans for this most excellent acquisition? Are you building time or going places? Are you in the flat and low part of Texas or the high and bumpy part? The answers to these questions should probably drive the decision between a 180 and a 140. You can always run a 180 at lower power to save gas, but you can't get more power out of a 140. OTOH, $10,000 is a big price difference.
 
Snaggletooth said:
Mostly, I wanted to fly the Cherokee so I would know if I liked it. I plan to look in to Owning/leasing a Plane soon, and I was thinking about doing so in a Cherokee. So being that this one was the closest one to me that I could rent, I went up in it.

I found me a nice 140 for $21,000, and a nice 180 for $30,500!
Click to expand...

I own a cherokee 140 (since 1994). My recommendation is to
buy the 180, if you can afford the initial purchase price. Other
than the initial purchase price, the 140 and 180 cost about
the same to own and operate. With the 180 you get a little
more flexibility in payload, altitude, etc.

btw - the higher fuel burn with the 180 can be dealt with... there
is no reason you have to run at 75% power. You can always reduce
throttle and burn at 55% or 65% power and save fuel.
 
Right now, buying is just a pipe dream. I am out of work ATM. Just put in a app at the local Airport, and talked to the Manager about a job today. Maybe things will pan out.

Back on topic, I like down on the Gulf Coast, so it's very flat here. For now, I plan to just build time while working towards my Commercial Rating. I think a 140 will be fine for what I need right now. The price range is good too.
 
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