Fly straight out

Discussion in 'Change to my Frequency...' started by azpilot, Mar 25, 2017.

  1. azpilot

    azpilot Line Up and Wait

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    Yesterday, while doing a checkout with a CFI, I had something I found off happen on the radio.

    Me - "Chandler Tower, Bugsmasher 12345, holding short, 22R, ready for departure."
    Tower - "Bugsmasher 12345, cleared for takeoff, 22R, fly straight out"
    Me - "Cleared for takeoff, 22R, Bugsmasher 12345"
    Tower - "Bugsmasher 12345, confirm fly straight out instructions"
    Me - "Cleared for takeoff, 22R, fly straight out, Bugsmasher 12345"

    Typically I do repeat back specific departure instructions, but I didn't that time. Am I required to do that, or was tower just being picky?

    It wasn't really that big of a deal. I blew it off, and read the instruction back the way he wanted. However, I do want to make sure I am as precise and correct as possible when flying and talking on the radio.
     
  2. eman1200

    eman1200 Final Approach

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    if they say 'proceed on course' you'd repeat that.......if they said 'fly heading blah blah' you'd repeat that.........
     
  3. Dave S.

    Dave S. Pre-Flight

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    That is not correct phraseology by a long shot.

    ATC regs require proper phraseology with this exception...a controller may resort to simple plain English instructions to make himself understood in cases where standard phraseology doesn't get the job done.

    Should be "fly runway heading" or "fly heading xxx" or "continue northbound" or "resume own navigation" ("proceed on course" is typically reserved for IFR departures).

    There was probably a more standard way to say what he wanted to say.

    tex
     
  4. azpilot

    azpilot Line Up and Wait

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    Hmm... interesting. He definitely said, "Fly straight out". That is a phrase commonly used at the airport I fly out of.
     
  5. Walboy

    Walboy Line Up and Wait

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    So after a period of time did the tower give you a turn? Or did you request a southwesterly departure? I suppose if you requested to depart to the southwest "fly straight out" makes sense. I have never heard "fly straight out" rather they usually say "fly runway heading" but usually before a turn in another direction.
     
  6. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser!

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    "12345, understand cleared for t-o 22R fly rwy hdg"
     
  7. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Always repeat back what tower instructs you to do.

    My reply to that would simply be:

    "Cleared for takeoff 22R, straight out departure 1AB."
     
  8. azpilot

    azpilot Line Up and Wait

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    b
    I had asked for a South departure. When I was about 400' agl he cleared me for a left turn. I imbued to 500' agl and the turned left for a due south departure.
     
  9. azpilot

    azpilot Line Up and Wait

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    I agree. That's usually what I do.
     
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  10. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    I've heard it often too. Pretty standard at my old home base.

    The response? Well, while it's not one of those technically required, telling you to go straight out (or "fly runway heading" or "turn west at the Walmart" or whatever standard or nonstandard instruction they might give) is usually for traffic purposes. So a response repeating it to show you got it is not a bad idea.
     
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  11. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Reading back everything that ATC tells you to do is not actually required by the regulations. The AIM recommends reading back certain things, but lately, a lot of people have been reading back every single word, which goes way beyond what the AIM recommends. I think it's going overboard.
     
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  12. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The whole issue is understanding what the controller wanted, so a verbatim readback of non-standard phraseology is not going to help much.

    Pilot and controller must be completely on the same page so I say query it, or correct it to standard phraseology (as I did above)
     
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  13. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    I've never had trouble understanding "fly straight out." Not even the first of the dozens of times I've heard it. Not once did I think "straight out" meant to make a turn.

    But your point is well taken. Pilot and controller must be on the same page. In case if any doubt, I also do a readback of what I think the controller was telling me.
     
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  14. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    Yup. There's a balance there somewhere between echolalia and acknowledgement.
     
  15. Ravioli

    Ravioli En-Route

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    I've noticed that what I say has something to do with what I hear.

    If I've already received FF instructions and a code it goes something like:
    Me: Bugdestroyer666, ready for take off RW16 @ alpha
    Tower? 666, cleared for takeoff 16.
    Me: 666 cleared for takeoff 16.
    In this case he knows where I'm going and such.

    Without the FF:
    Me: BD666, ready for take off RW16 @alpha, East departure
    Tower: 666, cleared for takeoff 16, right turnout approved.
    Me: 666 cleared for takeoff 16

    Sometimes I forget to advise my direction of flight, so there's more banter.

    Short story long, it depends. When I'm hearing confirmation of a request I don't read it all back. When I'm confirming a new or different instruction I do.
     
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  16. azure

    azure Final Approach

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    Yes, I'd question it too, especially if there was a parallel runway and a crosswind. Does he want me to compensate for the crosswind, or did he really mean "runway heading"? In the absence of any anything more I'd assume he wanted me to compensate if he said "straight out", but I would ask for clarification to be sure we were on the same page.
     
  17. Dave S.

    Dave S. Pre-Flight

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    Pilots are required to "acknowledge" all instructions. The is no requirement to read back instructions either in whole or in part. However ATC must ensure that any part that is read back is accurate. So if the controller says "turn right heading 280, intercept V83, then resume own navigation. Maintain one two thousand", all the pilot is required to do is acknowledge. And the proper way to do that is to say "Wilco". The FAA, several years ago, stipulated that "Roger" can be understood as "Wilco". But if the pilot says " Roger, maintain twelve thousand" then the part of the instruction the pilot repeats back is correct.

    As to fly straight out, sure it's clear what he wants the pilot to do. There is probably a better way to state it. But after 35 years of this I know there is no way to second guess the controller in this particular situation.

    tex
     
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  18. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Runway heading isn't necessarily straight out (admittedly the last is an undefined term). With a significant crosswind, runway heading may be quite unaligned with the extended centerline.
     
  19. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    They have not, however, stipulated that in the Pilot/Controller Glossary.
     
  20. MAKG1

    MAKG1 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    While there is no legal requirement on the pilot to read back, there sure as heck is a practical requirement. You won't even make it to the runway at a towered airport without it. Controllers are required to obtain readbacks that contain runway assignments, vectors or altitudes.
     
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  21. bobmrg

    bobmrg En-Route

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    Spend a few minutes reading the Pilot/Controller Glossary....the answer to your question is there.

    Bob
     
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  22. Dave S.

    Dave S. Pre-Flight

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    I should mention that full read back of hold short clearances ARE required. Which included LAHSO which is a hold short instruction.

    From 7110.65...

    NOTE−
    1. ATC Clearance/Instruction Read Back guidance for pilots in the AIM states:

    a. Although pilots should read back the “numbers,” unless otherwise required by procedure or controller request, pilots may acknowledge clearances, control instructions, or other information by using “Wilco,” “Roger,” “Affirmative,” or other words or remarks with their aircraft identification.

    From the AIM...

    ROGER− I have received all of your last transmission. It should not be used to answer a question requiring a yes or a no answer.


    Acknowledge with your aircraft identification, either at the beginning or at the end of your transmission, and one of the words “Wilco,” “Roger,” “Affirmative,” “Negative,” or other appropriate remarks; e.g., “PIPER TWO ONE FOUR LIMA, ROGER.”

    So, depending on the context of what the instruction is, "Roger" has the same effect as "Wilco".

    In response to "altimeter 29.97" "roger" simply acknowledges the information. In response to "turn right heading 280" "roger" first acknowledges the instruction and second, by implication AND by the requirement that pilots must comply with ATC instructions, essentially seals the contract by that acknowledgement that the pilot will comply with the instruction giving the same effect as "Wilco".

    tex
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2017
  23. citizen5000

    citizen5000 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Remember, ATC is recording.

    AIM 4−4−7
    b. ATC Clearance/Instruction Readback.

    Pilots of airborne aircraft should read back those parts of ATC clearances and instructions containing altitude assignments, vectors, or runway assignments as a means of mutual verification.

    "Straight out" is a runway heading.
     
  24. Dave S.

    Dave S. Pre-Flight

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    While it may be a good practice to read back everything it is not true that controllers MUST get a verbatim read back for vectors and almost all altitudes (only alts given by controllers associated with charted procedures). It is true that the controller must CONFIRM (a controller requirement) runway assignment.

    From the 7110.65...

    3−7−2. TAXI AND GROUND MOVEMENT OPERATIONS

    Issue the route for the aircraft/vehicle to follow on the movement area in concise and easy to understand terms. The taxi clearance must include the specific route to follow. When a taxi clearance to a runway is issued to an aircraft, confirm the aircraft has the correct runway assignment.

    NOTE-
    1. A pilot’s read back of taxi instructions with the runway assignment can be considered confirmation of runway assignment.

    And by the way...we are discussing technicalities here. What is required and what is suggested as good practice are two different things. Before one can understand what is and isn't fact one needs to differentiate between what is and isn't a written requirement and what is and isn't suggested procedure.

    "Should" and "shall" and "will" have all different and specific meanings and usages.

    tex
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2017
  25. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

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    Controllers are NOT required to obtain read backs on those items. Outside of runway confirmation (taxi), those are "shoulds" from the AIM.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2017
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  26. Radar Contact

    Radar Contact Cleared for Takeoff

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    My thought is Chandler Tower is a VFR tower. As such, maybe they don't like issuing VFR aircraft a heading. Fly rwy heading or fly heading 220 is assigning a heading. Fly straight-out is a clear control instruction that I think is fine as a controller or pilot. I would have read it back so the controller knows I understood it. That all being said, I had no problem saying fly runway heading when I worked at a VFR tower.
     
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  27. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    ATC assumes if you receive an instruction, you will follow it (since you're required to anyhow). Roger is fine. The only time I use wilco is on things that that are directly instructions, like when VFR and I get "report altitude changes" or "let me know when you have the weather at XXX."
     
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  28. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I don't think those inferences are justified by the passages you quoted. Listing words together in a list of possible responses is not the same as saying that one includes the meaning of another. Upon hearing the word "roger," a controller may be justified in assuming that a pilot will follow his instructions because 91.123 requires it, but that does not imply that "wilco" is included in the meaning of "roger."
     
  29. azpilot

    azpilot Line Up and Wait

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    Interesting, I've never thought of it that way. This airport does have parallel runways. But the winds were rather calm that day. I've always taken, "Fly straight out" to mean that I need to keep the airplane aligned with the runway, but I guess that is actually an assumption I've been making.
     
  30. Dave S.

    Dave S. Pre-Flight

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    Read it again....7110.65...

    2−4−3. PILOT ACKNOWLEDGMENT/READ BACK

    Ensure pilots acknowledge all Air Traffic Clearances and ATC Instructions. When a pilot reads back an Air Traffic Clearance or ATC Instruction:

    a. Ensure that items read back are correct.
    b. Ensure the read back of hold short instructions, whether a part of taxi instructions or a LAHSO clearance.
    c. Ensure pilots use call signs and/or registration numbers in any read back acknowledging an Air Traffic Clearance or ATC Instruction.

    NOTE−
    1. ATC Clearance/Instruction Read Back guidance for pilots in the AIM states:

    a. Although pilots should read back the “numbers,” unless otherwise required by procedure or controller request, pilots may acknowledge clearances, control instructions, or other information by using “Wilco,” “Roger,” “Affirmative,” or other words or remarks with their aircraft identification.
    b. Altitudes contained in charted procedures, such as departure procedures, instrument approaches, etc., need not be read back unless they are specifically stated by the controller.
    c. Initial read back of a taxi, departure or landing clearance should include the runway assignment, including left, right, center, etc. if applicable.

    2. Until a pilot acknowledges a controller’s clearance or instruction, a controller cannot know if a pilot will comply with the clearance or remain as previously cleared.

    EXAMPLE− “Climbing to Flight Level three three zero, United Twelve” or “November Five Charlie Tango, roger, cleared to land runway four left.”

    REFERENCE−
    P/CG Term – Air Traffic Clearance
    P/CG Term – ATC Instructions
    JO 7110.65, 3-7-2. Taxi and Ground Movement Operations
    JO 7110.65, 10-4-4. Communications Failure
    AIM Para 4-2-3, Contact Procedures
    AIM Para 4-4-7 Pilot Responsibility upon Clearance Issuance AIM Para 6-4-1, Two-way Radio Communications Failure Federal Register, April 1, 1999 14 CFR Part 91 Pilot Responsibility for Compliance with ATC Clearances and Instructions


    And again...

    3−7−2. TAXI AND GROUND MOVEMENT OPERATIONS

    Issue the route for the aircraft/vehicle to follow on the movement area in concise and easy to understand terms. The taxi clearance must include the specific route to follow. When a taxi clearance to a runway is issued to an aircraft, confirm the aircraft has the correct runway assignment.

    NOTE− 1. A pilot’s read back of taxi instructions with the runway assignment can be considered confirmation of runway assignment [THIS IS WHERE PILOT'S ACKNOWLEDGING RUNWAY ASSIGNMENT STOPS THE 20 QUESTIONS, sic}

    THIS is what a controller is required to do. Nothing more, nothing less. What SHOULD be, or how we WISH it would be is one thing. The above is what IS required.

    This is not to say what would be good operating practice above and beyond the requirements. That is not the point of this response.

    tex
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2017
  31. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    If you're IFR and told to fly runway heading, I believe that you're expected to fly that heading even if there is a crosswind blowing you off the extended runway center line. If they tell a VFR aircraft to fly "straight out," I'm not sure what they expect, because the term is undefined, but staying aligned with the extended runway center line seems like a reasonable response to such an instruction.
     
  32. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I still don't see how any or all of that equates to "roger" incorporating the meaning of "wilco."
     
  33. Dave S.

    Dave S. Pre-Flight

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    Read my past post. I said it has the same effect.

    That is....

    1. You acknowledge the instruction
    2. FARs require that you comply with an acknowledged instruction

    tex
     
  34. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    That makes sense.

    I suppose in the real world, saying wilco instead of roger probably doesn't have much practical effect, but I figure as long as it's defined in the P/CG, I might as well use it when appropriate.
     
  35. luvflyin

    luvflyin En-Route

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    Yeah. And congesting frequencies. "Straight out, 22R, [ID]" would be just fine. Controller knows you're gonna cooperate and not turn and he got the mandatory runway readback they have to hear
     
  36. Walboy

    Walboy Line Up and Wait

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    I got my ass chewed out by Mr. John Walkup, owner of Chandler Air Service, king of KCHD, long time DPE about 15 years ago for not staying aligned with the runway center line when told to fly runway heading by the tower. It made an impession on me I never have forgotten. After being berated, I thought you were supposed to apply wind correction. Now thanks to @bobmrg I see that I was allowed to drift provided I fly runway heading. o_O

    Bottom line: fly in the general direction the controller tells you to and don't hit anyone.
     
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  37. Radar Contact

    Radar Contact Cleared for Takeoff

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    You should fly the heading of the runway and not compensate for x-wind when told to fly rwy heading IFR. The controller will issue a heading that accounts for the wind if they need it.
     
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  38. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

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    Which is why it's poor phraseology.
     
  39. azure

    azure Final Approach

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    I've never seen "fly straight out" in the P/CG, and from what I've been reading so far in this thread, it appears to not be standard ATC verbiage. I don't have a copy of the AIM handy but I will check it next chance I get.

    I know that "fly runway heading" means exactly that, fly the heading without crosswind correction. But in this case, I'm really not sure what the controller would be expecting, hence what I wrote.
     
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  40. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I'm holding out for "talk like a pirate day" where I can answer all my communications with "Arrrr....."

    For those who don't know, the etymology of "roger" is that it is the spoken version of the letter "R" which meant in morse code "received." The R turns into Roger in the old Able/Baker/Charlie... phonetic alphabet.
     
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