Fly Kids 4 Nate

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Ravioli

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If you're in the DFW metro area with nothing else to do on Monday give this a look:
https://www.facebook.com/events/166407930533596/

We'll probably be around during most of it. Candy is finishing the condition inspection and the Cardinal is in for annual... but my golf cart is rockin'!

Come out, help out, donate, whatever works for ya!
 
deonb said:
If you weren't on an FBL watchlist before, you're certainly on one now!
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Because my name is Nate and I don't need any kids flown around? LOL...

The "FBL" probably isn't interested in that. :)
 
Thank you @SixPapaCharlie for participating yesterday.

Bryan did 2 sorties for the cause and then was nice enough to take me and @Ravioli's co-pilot for ride in his fancy machine.

The event was very well attended. Not sure of the final kid tally but they were still giving rides 2-3 hours after the official end time.
 
I was also there. Did 2 flights, but had to bug out for a PnP flight shortly after Bryan arrived.

There were at least 10 aircraft of all sizes participating, from some 152's to a newer Baron. With so many aircraft operating in a small-ish airspace, it was a major exercise in see & avoid!

If the event grows much larger, I think it would be a good idea to move to a controlled field such a AFW or DTO.
 
Yes when I was flying in and listening on the radio I almost just kept on flying south. It was definitely a hornet's nest
 
Man, seems like all of these fun events happen in TX. :(
 
AggieMike88 said:
I was also there
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Sorry we missed you. We buzzing around on the golf cart. Darn annual inspection nonsense! Who needs those?

Did you get your pineapple pancake?
 
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Next time, to attract a bigger crowd, feel free to post details, such as dates, times, locations etc. Information helps attract people.
I wish PoA had a calendar feature where we could post events.
 
Lou, the crowd of aircraft and parents/kids was bigger than the site could handle!

There were at least 80-100 bodies behind the ropes surrounding the Cafe at any one time. And at least 11-15 aircraft flying or parked on the small ramp, including a few twin-engined craft.

They are still working out the count of how my kids/parents went on a flight. It was reported that so many people ate at the Cafe, they ran out of bacon.

upload_2017-5-31_15-15-3.png
 
Glad to hear y'all had plenty of attendance.
Too bad I have not heard of this one ahead of time, I was up there the day before.
I was suggesting to post details to increase attendance from our (dark) side. :D

I am looking fwd to the kid-flying event that's scheduled for next weekend in KILE (Harker Heights). We're hoping to bring a few airplanes (and pilots) from our area.
 
BigBadLou said:
Glad to hear y'all had plenty of attendance.
Too bad I have not heard of this one ahead of time, I was up there the day before.
I was suggesting to post details to increase attendance from our (dark) side. :D

I am looking fwd to the kid-flying event that's scheduled for next weekend in KILE (Harker Heights). We're hoping to bring a few airplanes (and pilots) from our area.
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are you also planning to be at the Flying Vikings event at KTPL?
 
Ravioli said:
@denverpilot - These are the Young Eagle requirements: https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/aviation...er-pilots/eaa-young-eagles-pilot-requirements

They are a little less rigorous than the AOPA version.
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All depends. Some YE events fall under the 91.146 rules. See:

http://eaa70.org/files/file.php?iid=571

I believe YE has a waiver dated after that letter was sent also, but I can't find it.

Organizations who don't, must meet the requirements of 91.146.

The "fuel discount" mentioned in the YE letter is controversial. Some FAA attorney trying to make a name for themselves might see that as "compensation". They definitely see taking a tax deduction for YE as compensation and it's on the pilot to know they moved over into 91.146 territory if they claim it.

Similarly CAP flights conducted with non-members aboard or cargo not owned by CAP on a "C" mission (in Colorado's case, some state funded missions) must also be flown by a Commercial pilot.

There's a whole table of examples for CAP here:

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/FAR_EXEMPTIONS_FOR_CAP_AIRCRAFT_OPE_CDAB0D431F658.pdf

All sorts of fun "gotchas" in this area of the regs. Whether FAA will actually hunt down and violate anyone, is probably leaning toward the "unlikely" side of things, but it's a legal mess, generally. Many charitable organizations don't realize (or want to pretend) that any form of remuneration becomes a legal problem for Private certificate holders.

I'm hunting for the link to the waiver list. Had it handy here at one time and now can't find it.

NBAA also has a slide deck for their members seeing that many corporate aviation departments participate in charitable events:

https://www.nbaa.org/events/amc/201...-Tue/NBAA2011-1011-1030-Reimbusement-FARs.pdf

Maybe @AdamZ can describe how the Angel Flight exemptions work. I know they have some, I just can't find the darn things right now, since their flights are point-to-point and what-not...

Here's a Googled condensed version of Angel Flight NE's waiver...

http://www.angelflightne.org/images/pdfs/faa_fuel_exemption_pilot_requirements.pdf

We also chatted about the wave of the sea change starting in his regard here, back in 2011. (Stumbled on the thread looking for the stupid waiver list. Ha.).

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...of-private-pilot-no-reimbursement-rule.44599/
 
I hadn't read 91.146 untill Nate pointed it out.

For Flying Vikings, I'll have to ask the organizer if he is aware of this rule. If it truly applies, along with the 500 hour requirement, that's gonna really limit his pool of volunteer pilots.

Also, both the rule and the AOPA article mention the event and the flying to be a fund raiser. The article expands on this saying...

General aviation pilots often engage in sightseeing flights in conjunction with local airport open-house events to raise funds for airport authorities, churches, civic groups, boy scouts and girl scouts, or local community members in time of need​

I don't recall the Flying Vikings event in Denton doing any solicitation of funds. I did not see any collection jars or signage asking for donations. It was almost like an organized "flash mob" of pilots showing up at the same time as parents and kids. And then the pilots taking these folks out for a local sightseeing flight within 25 miles of the airport.

I am by no means able to debate on if .146 applies or not. So I'm not going to attempt.

But if it does apply to to the event on the 10th, I am going to look in the general direction of Colorado and yell that someone is a big party pooper.
 
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BigBadLou said:
The original plan was for KILE, did they move it to KTPL? (keep us updated, please)
Yes, we plan to attend with multiple aicraft. Wx permitting, of course.
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Their website says Killeen. So you're correct in that.
 
AggieMike88 said:
But if it does apply to to the event on the 10th, I am going to look in the general direction of Colorado and yell that someone is a big party pooper.
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LOL! Sorry man. I first became aware of it at a local charity gig also. There were rumblings of needing 500 hour pilots because the overall event also took donations for the organization, and then all that talk disappeared. I had the 500 at the time, but worried the organization was risking the other pilot's certificates.

The litmus test seemed to be early on whether the pilot or the organization made money, but as we all know, the FAA interpretation of "compensation" was broadening prior to, and during the time that ref jumped the required pilot hours considerably. Then you get into all the problems with "shared" costs.

And @midlifeflyer 's favorite rabbit holes... whether you're the owner / operator of the aircraft... and ... leasing... and... haha...

The truth table necessary to do it all above board, gets kinda complex, as seen in the YE and CAP documents.

By the way, I'm not the party pooper. Talk to whoever writes these silly rules that overlap and don't make any common sense. I get that they'd like everyone to have 500 and a Commercial to fly anyone they don't know, ever... but it's a bit much when applied to these nice Day VFR "fly the kids around the patch" events.

Problem is, I think FAA feels the need to be consistent on this stuff, or they wouldn't have a leg to stand on against the flying "Uber" places and lawsuits. So THAT stuff creates a problem for them (non-Commercial flying of passengers) and they end up cracking down on all the many ways that might occur...

That said, I watched someone ground loop during a recent YE event, I'm pretty sure. Event may have been over with, but the aircraft definitely participated. Don't know. Didn't ask. Didn't want to know. Didn't check the timeline.

Nobody hurt but the pilot's pride. I was just the guy who was number two behind him who had to go around., and I didn't mind. Pilot probably has way more than 500 if it's who I think it was. Nice airplane, too.
 
denverpilot said:
@midlifeflyer may also have been involved in helping organizations or groups with this? Don't know. Just a "ping" his direction.
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I haven't assisted in meeting 91.146 notification requirements. So, sorry, no special to of my head insights.

This is a strange area because of the FAA's stance on what I think of as "incidental" or "secondary" compensation, usually minor things like free flight time (though that one can get pretty big), business good will, and charitable tax deductions. Fuel discounts in exchange for doing charitable flights are a "fun" topic since, yeah, technically probably "compensation" but c'mon, who really cares? Or should care? You can add landing free waivers to the list. Ridiculous. As the legal types like to say, de minimis. But it's potentially there. And probably "violated" regularly.

You mentioned the EAA fuel reimbursement exemption. EAA declined it as being too burdensome.
 
@BigBadLou, here is the answer from Paul Hansen of Flying Vikings.

June 10 Killeen Skylark Field
Time: 9;30 ------ 1 pm
Location: Central Texas College Hangar (North end of field) Large white hangar ,largest one
Everything will be pretty much the same.... Yet this one will have a lot of activities for kids, Police, fire depts, Face painter, music, food, 3 Lions clubs assisting, Boy Scouts presenting colors , Star Wars Characters etc ,, Possible Stearman, T-6, Nan Chang and German Stork will attend. South end parking lots will be a 150 car carshow fundraiser 9-3 (outside airport)

When I asked him about 91.146

YES,, I even called the FSDO office in San Antonio and questioned these FAR's..
The result, no need to file anything. Just make sure pilots have BFR, Current, Medical Event must be VFR
With regard to events it 4. That is number a volunteer pilot can fly,,,,,,,We have 14 this year and planned 20 the following. They range from Florida to Chicago to Houston and California.

Since no money is exchanged ,, no problems exist or concerns NIFA (National Interrcollegiate Flight Association) Universities that assist around country say, due to no money its a non event​
 
AggieMike88 said:
@BigBadLou, here is the answer from Paul Hansen of Flying Vikings.

June 10 Killeen Skylark Field
Time: 9;30 ------ 1 pm
Location: Central Texas College Hangar (North end of field) Large white hangar ,largest one
Everything will be pretty much the same.... Yet this one will have a lot of activities for kids, Police, fire depts, Face painter, music, food, 3 Lions clubs assisting, Boy Scouts presenting colors , Star Wars Characters etc ,, Possible Stearman, T-6, Nan Chang and German Stork will attend. South end parking lots will be a 150 car carshow fundraiser 9-3 (outside airport)

When I asked him about 91.146

YES,, I even called the FSDO office in San Antonio and questioned these FAR's..
The result, no need to file anything. Just make sure pilots have BFR, Current, Medical Event must be VFR
With regard to events it 4. That is number a volunteer pilot can fly,,,,,,,We have 14 this year and planned 20 the following. They range from Florida to Chicago to Houston and California.

Since no money is exchanged ,, no problems exist or concerns NIFA (National Interrcollegiate Flight Association) Universities that assist around country say, due to no money its a non event​
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Thanks, Mike.
After reading the 91.146 (thanks for the earlier AOPA link) very carefully, I concluded that it does not apply to pilots in this event since they are NOT raising money by flying "regular" pax and getting compensated with a fair share etc.

So we should be good.
 
BigBadLou said:
Thanks, Mike.
After reading the 91.146 (thanks for the earlier AOPA link) very carefully, I concluded that it does not apply to pilots in this event since they are NOT raising money by flying "regular" pax and getting compensated with a fair share etc.

So we should be good.
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That's my take on it too. 91.146 would likely apply to an organization that does something like a silent auction for a close in scenic flight.

And I'm looking at possible flight routes for the event. Interesting airspace to deal with having Fort Hood's D-spaces to the NW, a huge tower to the SE, and lots of smaller towers along HWY 190.

Paul said in an email the airplane count so far is 8.

I'm thinking of flying down Friday evening. This way I'm not only there on time, but sufficiently rested for a busy day of flying.
 
AggieMike88 said:
And I'm looking at possible flight routes for the event. Interesting airspace to deal with having Fort Hood's D-spaces to the NW, a huge tower to the SE, and lots of smaller towers along HWY 190.
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I assume Paul will plan a nice route? And hopefully discuss with Gray approach? (we don't want to get into their AAF corridor)
Or is he looking for suggestions/ideas? Such as: take off on 19 (let's assume prevailing winds from the south), extend, turn left to overfly Lake Still house, make a left U-turn over I-35 and return by following 190 to downwind into rwy 19?
FWIW, CTX gets very bumpy very high on a warm sunny day. Not sure what it is about this place but other places around TX aren't as bad. The thermals can go up thousands of feet, no kidding.
 
BigBadLou said:
Thanks, Mike.
After reading the 91.146 (thanks for the earlier AOPA link) very carefully, I concluded that it does not apply to pilots in this event since they are NOT raising money by flying "regular" pax and getting compensated with a fair share etc.

So we should be good.
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Glad y'all checked. Since I don't know the details of any particular charitable event from afar, I just remind folks to look at 91.146 and decide for themselves. The ones where there's active requests for donations at the same time as flights are taking place, give me some pause these days. Or any sort of reimbursement to the pilots. Generally without those things, it's "safe".

The charity here locally that pushes it a bit has folks soliciting donations during the event and that's getting into the grey...
 
BigBadLou said:
I assume Paul will plan a nice route? And hopefully discuss with Gray approach? (we don't want to get into their AAF corridor)
Or is he looking for suggestions/ideas? Such as: take off on 19 (let's assume prevailing winds from the south), extend, turn left to overfly Lake Still house, make a left U-turn over I-35 and return by following 190 to downwind into rwy 19?
FWIW, CTX gets very bumpy very high on a warm sunny day. Not sure what it is about this place but other places around TX aren't as bad. The thermals can go up thousands of feet, no kidding.
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Routing the flights is gonna be interesting with Ft. Hood being so close and lots of towers on the north end.

I sent Paul these suggested routes. One route for the slower crowd, another for the faster folks. If you have other ideas, I'll share his email with you.

768993C6-9626-478D-924D-F3A36079A6F6.JPG 9748ACEE-4C9B-42D5-8BFC-4D0D570B5BED.JPG
 
And I don't know if he has (or will) talk to Gray Approach.

When the Denton event, the bunch of us pilots eventually asked DTO tower for a beacon code, and passed on to Regional approach what was going on. Having the Approach controller assisting us really helped both the pilots doing the kid flights and his awareness of us as he worked the other aircraft.
 
I already have Paul's cell number, thank you.
I was wondering whether he is coordinating with Gray approach in advance to see whether they have any feedback for us before we congest their airspace in the wrong place or something.

I assume the pilot briefing in the morning will take care of details such as: CMF call signs, preferred altitudes etc?
 
BigBadLou said:
I assume the pilot briefing in the morning will take care of details such as: CMF call signs, preferred altitudes etc?
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I hope so... but for the Denton event, there really wasn't any.
 
BigBadLou said:
Thanks, Mike.
After reading the 91.146 (thanks for the earlier AOPA link) very carefully, I concluded that it does not apply to pilots in this event since they are NOT raising money by flying "regular" pax and getting compensated with a fair share etc.

So we should be good.
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Exactly correct. Nate, sorry I missed your post. I've been swamped at work and have had little time on the board. Since the "Nate" Pilots and YE pilots fly people for free they don't need the 500 hrs. The requirements that were mentioned here are for charitable flights when for example a sight seeing flight is auctioned off at a charity auction or if such flights are sold with proceeds going to the charity.
 
AdamZ said:
Exactly correct. Nate, sorry I missed your post. I've been swamped at work and have had little time on the board. Since the "Nate" Pilots and YE pilots fly people for free they don't need the 500 hrs. The requirements that were mentioned here are for charitable flights when for example a sight seeing flight is auctioned off at a charity auction or if such flights are sold with proceeds going to the charity.
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Thanks for the clarification.
 
AdamZ said:
Exactly correct. Nate, sorry I missed your post. I've been swamped at work and have had little time on the board. Since the "Nate" Pilots and YE pilots fly people for free they don't need the 500 hrs. The requirements that were mentioned here are for charitable flights when for example a sight seeing flight is auctioned off at a charity auction or if such flights are sold with proceeds going to the charity.
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Right. The difficulty these days is the (perhaps overly) broad FAA view of "compensation".

Technically the pilots are logging flight time, which FAA today considers "compensation" in plenty of rulings against people, but they don't seem to be too interested in the bad PR going after a charitable event with rules like that, that such an enforcement would bring them. Press would love that one.

So it's the "discounted fuel" or "paid fuel" ones that really get into the grey area these days.

That's a traceable dollar amount that the pilot was being given, and not just flight time in the logbook. Those setups get a little sketchy.

Anyway, glad everything was copacetic at these events and what not.
 
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