Fly heading or ground track?

DrMack said:
Since everyone in your vicinity is flying in the same wind, by assigning everyone a heading it automatically compensates for the wind effects with respect to the goal of separating traffic. The same principle applies with altitude. As long as everyone has the correct baro setting dialed in, separation is assured if they all fly their assigned altitude. Note that this principle does not apply to assured separation with the ground and objects affixed to it :).
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That is true, but evidence suggests that occasionally some controllers act otherwise.
 
Silvaire said:
...a ground based controller is never going to direct you to fly a Course, he's always going to direct you to fly a Heading.
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Don't forget to mention the exceptions, such as when the controller tells you to fly an airway, a VOR radial, or direct to a fix.
 
Palmpilot said:
Don't forget to mention the exceptions, such as when the controller tells you to fly an airway, a VOR radial, or direct to a fix.
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That's RNAV and no reg says you have to have it.
 
Henning said:
Wrong answer.
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It's hard to separate what you are supposed to follow from what you use to do it.

Kind of like "when doing pilotage, do you use (a) outside references or (b) your eyes?" Sorry, "your eyes" is the wrong answer. Only a multiple-guess test writer would be proud. :D
 
midlifeflyer said:
It's hard to separate what you are supposed to follow from what you use to do it.

Kind of like "when doing pilotage, do you use (a) outside references or (b) your eyes?" Sorry, "your eyes" is the wrong answer. Only a multiple-guess test writer would be proud. :D
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:confused: I don't understand the difficulty. There were three distinct choices, the correct is "magnetic" which is compass corrected for deviation, which is why you are required the compass correction card.
 
Henning said:
:confused: I don't understand the difficulty. There were three distinct choices, the correct is "magnetic" which is compass corrected for deviation, which is why you are required the compass correction card.
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Not difficult. "Magnetic" is definitely the "better" answer in the world of multiple-guess.

Just a distinction without much difference since one can not fly "magnetic" 020 without an instrument to tell us where it is.
 
Let's put it this way: if ATC tells N123 To fly heading 090, and tells N456 to fly heading 110, but N123 looks at his GPS and flies a 090 course and subsequently loses the minimum 15 degree course divergence with N456 because of a southerly wind, the system will report a loss of separation. When they review the tapes and see that the controller issued divergent headings, they are going to look at the pilots' actions in the event.
 
Jmcmanna said:
Let's put it this way: if ATC tells N123 To fly heading 090, and tells N456 to fly heading 110, but N123 looks at his GPS and flies a 090 course and subsequently loses the minimum 15 degree course divergence with N456 because of a southerly wind, the system will report a loss of separation. When they review the tapes and see that the controller issued divergent headings, they are going to look at the pilots' actions in the event.
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How would the system report a loss of separation in that scenario?
 
My auto-pilot has a heading bug that can be set to be a course bug. The course bug makes it easy to fly a ground track if I am ever asked to.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Not difficult. "Magnetic" is definitely the "better" answer in the world of multiple-guess.



Just a distinction without much difference since one can not fly "magnetic" 020 without an instrument to tell us where it is.
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If you are assigned 090, and you turn to 090 on the compass, but the compass card shows a 10 degree error at 090, you have turned to a 090 compass heading, but not the correct magnetic heading.


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midlifeflyer said:
Not difficult. "Magnetic" is definitely the "better" answer in the world of multiple-guess.

Just a distinction without much difference since one can not fly "magnetic" 020 without an instrument to tell us where it is.
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Understood, but to fly a 020 magnetic heading by reference to the compass, you have to first apply the deviation correction listed on the compass correction card unique to that airplane.
 
Palmpilot said:
I'm not saying you have to have RNAV; I'm saying there are situations in which ATC assigns a ground track.
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Indirectly. They are advising you to track a radial to a nav aid, often in the form of a victor airway or other airspace that has been evaluated safe and clear of obstructions. That they also can be used to define a ground track is secondary and of no real use to a pilot operating in IMC.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I think he's referring to that awful thing called "human beings making mistakes."
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More or less. If a controller tells me I'm consistently 15 degrees left of where he thinks he pointed me, I will oblige and think the controller has no idea what the WCA is :). It happens.
 
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ChrisK said:
More or less. If a controller tells me I'm consistently 15 degrees left of where he thinks he pointed me, I will oblige and think the controller has no idea what the WCA is :). It happens.
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Is it possible your response was meant for a different post?
 
Silvaire said:
Um yea, unless you can tell me how you're gonna do that without a radio?
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RNAV is not Radio Nav, it's Area Nav and can be driven by whatever source of position derivation and indication you like.
 
Henning said:
Understood, but to fly a 020 magnetic heading by reference to the compass, you have to first apply the deviation correction listed on the compass correction card unique to that airplane.
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Okay wait a minute here. "Deviation" and "Correction" are two different things. Which one are we talking about?
 
Henning said:
Indirectly. They are advising you to track a radial to a nav aid, often in the form of a victor airway or other airspace that has been evaluated safe and clear of obstructions. That they also can be used to define a ground track is secondary and of no real use to a pilot operating in IMC.
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Flying radials and airways is of no use in IMC? :confused:
 
Silvaire said:
My mistake, I meant Radio
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I was responding to this statement, so I'm not sure what no-radio operations have to do with it:

"...a ground based controller is never going to direct you to fly a Course, he's always going to direct you to fly a Heading."
 
roncachamp said:
How would the system report a loss of separation in that scenario?
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QC gets a report of every loss of standard separation. They look at the radar data and the audio and determine if there was indeed a loss, or if there was another form of separation (like a pilot was maintaining visual, etc..). I don't know if they still use TARP downstairs or some other system.

The example i gave happened to a controller here. She had two aircraft on divergent headings (20 degrees), but their ground tracks diverged by less than 15 degrees for a short time and an mandatory occurrence report was generated and the loss was investigated. I don't know what, if anything, happened to the pilots.
 
Jmcmanna said:
QC gets a report of every loss of standard separation. They look at the radar data and the audio and determine if there was indeed a loss, or if there was another form of separation (like a pilot was maintaining visual, etc..). I don't know if they still use TARP downstairs or some other system.

The example i gave happened to a controller here. She had two aircraft on divergent headings (20 degrees), but their ground tracks diverged by less than 15 degrees for a short time and an mandatory occurrence report was generated and the loss was investigated. I don't know what, if anything, happened to the pilots.
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Ground tracks diverging by less than 15 degrees for a short time should not be considered a loss of separation, assuming the procedure was properly applied.
 
Silvaire said:
Okay wait a minute here. "Deviation" and "Correction" are two different things. Which one are we talking about?
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Correction is what you apply to deviation which is the compass error.

True
Variation
Magnetic
Deviation
Compass
Add
West

True virgins make dull company, add whiskey.
 
Palmpilot said:
Flying radials and airways is of no use in IMC? :confused:
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Radials are most definitely of use and what you are actually flying, the ground path it indicates as well is of little use except to compare altitude vs. elevation. IOW you aren't assigned the ground path, you are assigned the radial or airway.
 
Henning said:
Radials are most definitely of use and what you are actually flying, the ground path it indicates as well is of little use except to compare altitude vs. elevation. IOW you aren't assigned the ground path, you are assigned the radial or airway.
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Semantics
 
roncachamp said:
Ground tracks diverging by less than 15 degrees for a short time should not be considered a loss of separation, assuming the procedure was properly applied.
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You would have to talk to the QC manager here about that.
 
Henning said:
Yes, words and their meanings, that is what this thread is about. Accurate semantics are somewhat important in technical endeavors.
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When I draw a line on a chart, that is sufficient to define a ground track. The same is true when the FAA draws a line on a chart and calls it an airway.

In contrast, specifying a heading is not, by itself, sufficient to define a ground track.
 
Palmpilot said:
I was responding to this statement, so I'm not sure what no-radio operations have to do with it:

"...a ground based controller is never going to direct you to fly a Course, he's always going to direct you to fly a Heading."
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I'm saying, how could you fly a defined course directed from a controller such as an airway or radial if you have no nav radio?
 
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