FlightPrep online planning patent

gismo

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According to AvWeb, FlightPrep is pursuing enforcement of it's patent for online flight planning which will likely result in the elimination of several competitors. I haven't reviewed the patent but supposedly it covers most aspects of online flight planning. Personally this seems unlikely to be successful to me unless they've been sitting on the patent for many years since DUAT came out with their GoldenEagle service a long time ago and if that was in the public domain before FlightPrep submitted their patent application many or all of the patent's claims would be invalidated due to prior art if the patent were challenged.
 
According to AvWeb, FlightPrep is pursuing enforcement of it's patent for online flight planning which will likely result in the elimination of several competitors. I haven't reviewed the patent but supposedly it covers most aspects of online flight planning. Personally this seems unlikely to be successful to me unless they've been sitting on the patent for many years since DUAT came out with their GoldenEagle service a long time ago and if that was in the public domain before FlightPrep submitted their patent application many or all of the patent's claims would be invalidated due to prior art if the patent were challenged.
A quick glance of their claims makes it appear that their invention is the web interface and how the data is accessed and displayed. This is different that the DUAT prior art and is in line with Feist v Rural Telecom. That SCOTUS finding indicated that it was the interfaces to data that could be protected and not the data itself. I think they have a good claim. What I fully expect to happen is that they eventually agree to some licensing terms with the other companies.
 
Already in progress...skyvector has a license already.
 
Seems to me this patent simply covers doing online what pilots were doing ever since the Wright brother days. That's patentable? Really?
As far as I know, the idea of doing stuff online on the world wide web goes back to CERN, the European Center for Nuclear Research. And they are not charging licensing fees when I browse this forum, are they?
I am not a lawyer, but if this patent is held up, something seems broken with the patenting system.
 
sigh...software patents need to go.
 
DUAT came out with their GoldenEagle service a long time ago and if that was in the public domain before FlightPrep submitted their patent application
Golden Eagle is a FlightPrep product. In the US, you can get a patent even if you have already shown an embodiment of the patent publicly. IIRC this is not true in all countries.
 
Runwayfinder is going off-line today because of this. They can't justify paying royalties when they don't make any money to begin with. I may cancel my Golden Eagle subscription and use AOPA's service over this.
 
Runwayfinder is going off-line today because of this. They can't justify paying royalties when they don't make any money to begin with. I may cancel my Golden Eagle subscription and use AOPA's service over this.

Late breaking info.

The reports of the death of Runway Finder has been greatly exaggerated (with apologies to Twian)

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Looks like they came to an agreement
 

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Late breaking info.

The reports of the death of Runway Finder has been greatly exaggerated (with apologies to Twian)

attachment.php


Looks like they came to an agreement

Uhhm Scott, thats from Skyvector...
 
Since flightprep gets their jollies off shutting down free websites that make no money, and with no intent to, I will not be using them or any of their affiliates products.
 
Yeah, I'm inclined to react the same way. Here's an open letter from FlightPrep on this subject. Here's the patent. I didn't read it carefully, but it really does look like they just patented the idea of hosting different chart products on a server, overlaying a flight plan, and displaying it on a client. Nothing unique about the implementation. Then they generously agree to license their 'technology' to other companies that have already developed their own implementations. Basically, it looks to me like they get to sit back and profit from other people's work.

I think this may prompt an email from me to FlightPrep and CSC DUATS about why I will no longer be using their services. Not that it matters.
 
Since flightprep gets their jollies off shutting down free websites that make no money, and with no intent to, I will not be using them or any of their affiliates products.
Flightprep did not shut down any web site. RunwayFinder chose to shut down instead of paying for the use of property that is owned by someone else.

What Flight Prep has done is to assert their Constitutional rights.

“To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries.” These words appear in the US Constitution and are established in other countries. They embody the principle that original works are protected and the creators of those works can profit from them for a period of time.


The current landscape of IP has been evolving at a rapid pace; one can trace this latest evolution to the 1991 Supreme Court of the United State (SCOTUS) case of Feist Publications versus Rural Telecom. In this case, Rural Telecom published a directory of listings that contained information on its subscribers. Feist was a publisher that wished to use the information for a larger area directory. When Rural refused to license the material, Feist published the material anyways. (Feist V Rural Telecom 1991) The key finding from the SCOTUS was:

“Since facts do not owe their origin to an act of authorship, they are not original, and thus are not copyrightable. Although a compilation of facts may possess the requisite originality because the author typically chooses which facts to include, in what order to place them, and how to arrange the data so that readers may use them effectively, copyright protection extends only to those components of the work that are original to the author, not to the facts themselves. This fact/expression dichotomy severely limits the scope of protection in fact-based works.”

Websites that are a business and is it fair to those that have put the money into research and development to have someone else come in and give away their invention?

That is what is being alleged here in this legal assertion by FlightPrep. They took the time and invested the money into something that the founding fathers of this nation said was worth protecting, inventions. Runway Finder is being accused of then taking that hard work of others and giving it away. The analogy is is you own a store and pay to stock it with goods, but I walk in take the items and then stand at your front door handing them out.

I borrowed this from the red board. I think it is a really good analogy to what is happening

I recall a couple of brothers back at the beginning of the last century had an idea they patented. Allot of folks made similar products but in the end it was their idea and their property.
Just because Flightpreps idea is not something you can take around the pattern doesn't mean that they didn't put allot of time and effort into it's development. They should be paid for their efforts. Software, while easily stolen, is still property.
 
The issue I see is that the patent was even granted in the first place.

A quick glance at the patent makes it seem equivalent to someone patenting the process of flight-planning pre-internet: Clear out space on the living room floor, tape several bordering charts together, use yardstick to connect points across multiple charts, draw line connecting points using highlighter and yard stick.
 
The issue I see is that the patent was even granted in the first place.

A quick glance at the patent makes it seem equivalent to someone patenting the process of flight-planning pre-internet: Clear out space on the living room floor, tape several bordering charts together, use yardstick to connect points across multiple charts, draw line connecting points using highlighter and yard stick.
Remember the Wright brother got a patent for the airplane and yet they did not invent the wing, the plane, nor the engine. But they were able to get all of those things to do something just a little differently than others had done before by putting it all together in a new way. Should their patent have not been granted?
 
Flightprep did not shut down any web site. RunwayFinder chose to shut down instead of paying for the use of property that is owned by someone else.

What Flight Prep has done is to assert their Constitutional rights.

“To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries.” These words appear in the US Constitution and are established in other countries. They embody the principle that original works are protected and the creators of those works can profit from them for a period of time.


The current landscape of IP has been evolving at a rapid pace; one can trace this latest evolution to the 1991 Supreme Court of the United State (SCOTUS) case of Feist Publications versus Rural Telecom. In this case, Rural Telecom published a directory of listings that contained information on its subscribers. Feist was a publisher that wished to use the information for a larger area directory. When Rural refused to license the material, Feist published the material anyways. (Feist V Rural Telecom 1991) The key finding from the SCOTUS was:

“Since facts do not owe their origin to an act of authorship, they are not original, and thus are not copyrightable. Although a compilation of facts may possess the requisite originality because the author typically chooses which facts to include, in what order to place them, and how to arrange the data so that readers may use them effectively, copyright protection extends only to those components of the work that are original to the author, not to the facts themselves. This fact/expression dichotomy severely limits the scope of protection in fact-based works.”

Websites that are a business and is it fair to those that have put the money into research and development to have someone else come in and give away their invention?

That is what is being alleged here in this legal assertion by FlightPrep. They took the time and invested the money into something that the founding fathers of this nation said was worth protecting, inventions. Runway Finder is being accused of then taking that hard work of others and giving it away. The analogy is is you own a store and pay to stock it with goods, but I walk in take the items and then stand at your front door handing them out.

I borrowed this from the red board. I think it is a really good analogy to what is happening
The problem is that you have tons of bogus software patents that all the large companies acquire so that the next large company doesn't dare hit them with a patent suit because they can hit them with one right back. In the end most of these software patents are not patenting any true innovation - instead they're just crippling the little guy and killing innovation.

There is nothing special or unique about what they patented. It was just a bogus patent they acquired. Anyone else out there would have made what they patented without ever seeing their product or patent. Whatever. I won't be using any of their products or the product of any company that licenses them.

They didn't obtain the patent until 2009 - at which point their products had fallen behind the competition and this must have been their idea for generating revenue. Sad. It will be the end of them.

Comparing their patent to the Wright Brother's airplane is absolutely ridiculous.

Software patents are a bigger problem now then they're ever been and something has to change.
 
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Remember the Wright brother got a patent for the airplane and yet they did not invent the wing, the plane, nor the engine. But they were able to get all of those things to do something just a little differently than others had done before by putting it all together in a new way. Should their patent have not been granted?

I see the point you're trying to make.

The problem I have is that:
*Web developers have been using databases to store map locations for years.

*Web developers have been drawing lines on webpages for years.

*Web developers have been using data stored in a database to determine the location of the lines for years.

Heck, a few years ago even I was able to clumsily stumble into creating a webpage that would 1.) Store locations of aviation waypoints in a database. 2.) Let the user (me) choose a set of those waypoints to be known as a 'flight' and 3.) Display the 'flight' on a webpage. My display map was based on Google Map's 'collection of charts', so technically I guess I am in the realm of patent infringment now, which is ludicrous.
 
What Flight Prep has done is to assert their Constitutional rights.

Sure, they're likely well within their legal rights. And I'm well within my legal rights to think they shouldn't have exercised that particular right, and take my business elsewhere.

Flightprep did not shut down any web site. RunwayFinder chose to shut down instead of paying for the use of property that is owned by someone else.

FlightPrep apparently (according to this blog post) filed a lawsuit against runwayfinder. I think it's fair to assign some blame to FlightPrep.

While I recognize the importance of intellectual property protection, in this case the 'IP' in question is so basic and trivial that I can't see that it deserves that kind of protection. Given that FlightPrep contributed nothing to the actual implementation of the software that drives these other services (at least, as far as I'm aware, they haven't), or to the specific designs of the various interfaces, I think they're profiting not from their creativity and contribution to the field of online flight planning, but from their foresight in exploiting the US patent process. Legal, sure, but not something I want to support.

I also don't think the Wright brothers' patent is a fair analogy. They patented a specific technology, with a fair amount of detail as to how they implemented it. The FlightPrep patent seems more like patenting the problem than patenting the solution.
 
The problem is that you have tons of bogus software patents that all the large companies acquire so that the next large company doesn't dare hit them with a patent suit because they can hit them with one right back.
That is not just software patents. They same thing happens for hardware as well and is not new.

In the end most of these software patents are not patenting any true innovation - instead they're just crippling the little guy and killing innovation.
I just finished writing a research paper on how software patents and copyrights were affecting the bio-informatics field. They have a huge amount of IP issue including attempts to patent genetic materials. I looked at this issue including the open source movement which is endorsed by the US Government and the National Library of Medicine. I was really expected to come to the conclusion that wrote as your opinion. But I was unable to uncover any data to support it. I did find that the Open Source movement and private software development did feed off of each other. I was surprised to see that result.

There is nothing special or unique about what they patented.
The USPTO disagree. I do agree that the USPTO is not always right.

It was just a bogus patent they acquired.
You need to prove that.
I suggest that you start by evidence together; thing like printed publications, other patents, etc. These would need to discuss each element of the patent claims and how it was either known in the prior art or obvious from that prior art. Then you can make a claim chart displaying where each limitation of the claim is met your documentation. Then you may submit that along with a request for reexamination to the United States Patent and Trademark Office. Until then....well we have to live with their patent.


Anyone else out there would have made what they patented without ever seeing their product or patent. In the end their company failed to innovate and the competitors were beating them.
Possibly. The patent allows a company to have a monopoly for a time being. From the documents that founded this nation and England before this was all thought a good thing for the creation of technologies. Even if someone else independently created a similar invention, the person who patents first gets the monopoly. Ask Tesla how his invention in the field of electricity worked out for him. He got royally screwed by Edison.


So now their new revenue stream is this bogus patent.
Whatever. I won't be using any of their products or the product of any company that licenses them.
Whatever. But you may wish to stop using any product as this stuff occurs all the time. There is nothing new or unique. I should really urge to quickly ditch your cellphoneas Apple is making all kinds of claims about what they invented. But that is nothing new to them. After all they also claimed the first graphic icon display in their computers. Too bad Xerox had already invented it.
Comparing their patent to the Wright Brother's airplane is absolutely ridiculous.
Only if you do not understand how the patent system works.


Software patents are a bigger problem now then they're ever been and something has to change.
Software is much more prevalent than it was before. The patent system is far from perfect, I will grant you that. But it is what it is and efforts to change it have failed consistently for many decades. The people who know how to play the system are the ones that will win all the time. Welcome to big boy business; it is all about profit.
 
Flightprep did not shut down any web site. RunwayFinder chose to shut down instead of paying for the use of property that is owned by someone else.

Semantics. If I pull a gun on someone and tell them to hand over their wallet or else I'll kill them, and they hand me their wallet, it's still me forcing them to do so. Ok, so I didn't TAKE it like a purse snatcher, but the end result is the same - the person is without their wallet.
 
Heck, a few years ago even I was able to clumsily stumble into creating a webpage that would 1.) Store locations of aviation waypoints in a database. 2.) Let the user (me) choose a set of those waypoints to be known as a 'flight' and 3.) Display the 'flight' on a webpage. My display map was based on Google Map's 'collection of charts', so technically I guess I am in the realm of patent infringment now, which is ludicrous.

Actually, you mentioning Google Maps brings up an interesting point. The FlightPrep patent makes claims broader than flight planning. The patent lays claim to overlaying trip data of any sort on top of 'navigation charts', where the information is stored on a server and displayed on a client. From the patent:

However, as will become obvious later, additional applications of this invention may also include the field of cartography, route planning for motor vehicles, marine vehicles and similar utilization.

I wonder who else they might potentially have basis to sue for patent infringement, if they got ambitious, and what sorts of conflicts with other patents might turn up if they did.
 
I also don't think the Wright brothers' patent is a fair analogy. They patented a specific technology, with a fair amount of detail as to how they implemented it. The FlightPrep patent seems more like patenting the problem than patenting the solution.
They patented a flying machine.

http://invention.psychology.msstate.edu/i/Wrights/WrightUSPatent/WrightPatent.html
Read and remember that there were gliders already flying. What they did was come up with some tweaks to the ideas that were already out there.

There were some real battles over their patent claims too!!
http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Wright_Bros/Patent_Battles/WR12.htm
 
Scott - I see what you're saying but I simply do not agree with it neither do all the software foundations out there fighting software patents.

If your only business plan is to sue everybody that isn't "big boy business". That is stupid business and it usually ends up being the end of the company - look how well it worked out for SCO.

The big companies acquire as many patents as they can and a cold war situation develops where they don't screw with each other as everyone is violating someone's patent. You can't avoid it - there are so many insanely ridiculous software patents.

I can only hope that they try to force someone big like Garmin into licensing. We'll see how that works out for them.
 
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Semantics. If I pull a gun on someone and tell them to hand over their wallet or else I'll kill them, and they hand me their wallet, it's still me forcing them to do so. Ok, so I didn't TAKE it like a purse snatcher, but the end result is the same - the person is without their wallet.
It is not a crime to ask for license fees from a company based a legally and Constitutionally protected invention.

The only person here is being harmed is the patent holder who was in business to develop this type of service. He is harmed by someone who is copying his software features and giving them away. Again if I walk into you business and take stuff off of the shelf and then sit in front of you store giving it away would you not want to legally stop me?
 
The only person here is being harmed is the patent holder who was in business to develop this type of service. He is harmed by someone who is copying his software features and giving them away. Again if I walk into you business and take stuff off of the shelf and then sit in front of you store giving it away would you not want to legally stop me?
No one is copying them. They failed to innovate. They got beat. This is a last-minute lame attempt at them to generate some revenue. It's absolutely bogus.
 
It is not a crime to ask for license fees from a company based a legally and Constitutionally protected invention.

The only person here is being harmed is the patent holder who was in business to develop this type of service. He is harmed by someone who is copying his software features and giving them away. Again if I walk into you business and take stuff off of the shelf and then sit in front of you store giving it away would you not want to legally stop me?

If you want to manufacture your own materials and give it away for free, be my guest. Did runwayfinder actually hack the servers and steal the software?
 
They patented a flying machine.

http://invention.psychology.msstate.edu/i/Wrights/WrightUSPatent/WrightPatent.html
Read and remember that there were gliders already flying. What they did was come up with some tweaks to the ideas that were already out there.

Looks like you did the exact same Google search I did. :D I did read it (well, skimmed it, which may mean I missed to whole point), and it looked to me that what they patented specifically was a way to stabilize and control a flying machine, and they included specific information about how they did it. Had another clever inventor come along and come up with a different way to achieve powered flight - say a helicopter - it seems to me that the Wright brother's patent would not have been infringed. The analogy with FlightPrep would work better, I think, if the Wright brothers had patented the idea of travelling through the air. I admit, though, I have not carefully read either patents I'm discussing here.
 
It is not a crime to ask for license fees from a company based a legally and Constitutionally protected invention.

I don't think anyone's arguing about the legality. It's the morality we disagree about.
 
Scott - I see what you're saying but I simply do not agree with it neither do all the software foundations out there fighting software patents.
I know there are two sides to this issue. No argument at all. I have had to argue both sides in legal depositions and industry standards. If one has no OP then they are all for open source and elimination of IP restrictions. BTW something we have not talked about are patent pools. Often times companies in similar business will pool IP together in cross licensing terms. Basically it goes like this: I have 200 patents on technology XYZ and you have 197. Lets cross license each others stuff for $0.

There is also the Reasonable and Non Discriminatory terms. If everyone works together to develop a standardized tech. They all agree upfront to license and to do so fairly. A lot of the Qualcomm patent lawsuits are about them not meeting this agreement. The Broadcomm v. Qualcomm fight was really ugly. I was under subpoena for that one for several years. I gave way more deposition than I would ever care to. I have been notified that I am likely to be pulled into the Apple v. Motorola IP lawsuit. I have already been having to catalog a lot of my information. SIGH! :(

If your only business plan is to sue everybody that isn't "big boy business". That is stupid business and it usually ends up being the end of the company - look how well it worked out for SCO.
It is not the only business plan. For most companies it is a lot of their business. There are IP only business like Interdigital that do nothing but invent, file for patent, assert their patent, sue or settle. They do ok.

The big companies acquire as many patents as they can and a cold war situation develops where they don't screw with each other as everyone is violating someone's patent. You can't avoid it - there are so many insanely ridiculous software patents.
Stuff like this happens all the time. I have been claim charting some IP against a large Korean company for the past year.

I can only hope that they try to force someone big like Garmin into licensing their patent. We'll see how that works out for them.
I think what they are doing is starting with the little guys to obtain some credibility before they got to the big guys. That is where the real challenges will come. OR one of the big guys just buys them out for the IP and the owners get rich. Happens a lot too.
 
Did runwayfinder actually hack the servers and steal the software?
I don't see why that is germane at all.

They simply could have come up with the same solution as the other developers but failed to Patent it or inadvertently infringed upon the existing patent. It is completely immaterial to the topic.
 
Is doing what is expressly written in the US Constitution immoral?

While I respect the US constitution greatly, I don't view it as the final authority on morality. For instance, I'm sure we could easily agree on certain cases of exercising 1st Amendment rights as being examples of immorality. There are plenty of actions which are perfectly legal which still, in my opinion, should not be done. My first take on this FlightPrep thing is that this is one of them.
 
While I respect the US constitution greatly, I don't view it as the final authority on morality. For instance, I'm sure we could easily agree on certain cases of exercising 1st Amendment rights as being examples of immorality. There are plenty of actions which are perfectly legal which still, in my opinion, should not be done. My first take on this FlightPrep thing is that this is one of them.
What source then are you referring to that discusses the morality of intellectual property claims in the legal fields? To which moral authority is our legal system founded upon and yes that is a trick question.

This is not a moral issue. It is purely a legal one. Right now the system states that FlightPrep is with in their rights. They have offered option to RunwayFinder that have been rejected. Ok, RunwayFinder made a choice, one that a lot of us don't like. I think, at least from reading what I saw on the RedBoard from RunwayFinder, that if they would have answered their mail sooner things might have turned out differently.

To prove that the FlightPrep patent is wrong will take more than stating opinion. I have not looked at their claims in detail nor do I really want to because I have to do stuff like that at work all day and it makes my head hurt. But if someone were to refute their claims and challenge them successfully that would be great.

I can understand being disappointed that this happened, but I cannot see how getting angry at a company that has only done what many other companies do in this country on a daily basis is constructive.
 
What source then are you referring to that discusses the morality of intellectual property claims in the legal fields? To which moral authority is our legal system founded upon and yes that is a trick question.

This is not a moral issue. It is purely a legal one. Right now the system states that FlightPrep is with in their rights. They have offered option to RunwayFinder that have been rejected. Ok, RunwayFinder made a choice, one that a lot of us don't like. I think, at least from reading what I saw on the RedBoard from RunwayFinder, that if they would have answered their mail sooner things might have turned out differently.

To prove that the FlightPrep patent is wrong will take more than stating opinion. I have not looked at their claims in detail nor do I really want to because I have to do stuff like that at work all day and it makes my head hurt. But if someone were to refute their claims and challenge them successfully that would be great.

I can understand being disappointed that this happened, but I cannot see how getting angry at a company that has only done what many other companies do in this country on a daily basis is constructive.

Yeah some offer they made. Give us money or else we will take you to court for money even though you have none.
 
This is not a moral issue. It is purely a legal one. Right now the system states that FlightPrep is with in their rights. They have offered option to RunwayFinder that have been rejected. Ok, RunwayFinder made a choice, one that a lot of us don't like. I think, at least from reading what I saw on the RedBoard from RunwayFinder, that if they would have answered their mail sooner things might have turned out differently.

I think this is the heart of our disagreement. I think there is both a moral and legal dimension to this, and that they are almost completely distinct. I can't find any objection to what you claim are the legal issues here. My objections are not legal ones. So, yes, my objections come down, finally, to my own opinion that FlightPrep does not deserve the profits they will make here, even if they are legally entitled to them, and that I think their actions have harmed the aviation community. I've stated in previous posts why I think I can make those distinctions.

In purely legal terms, I am well within my rights to refuse to do business with FlightPrep for the above-stated non-legally-relevant reasons. I am well within my legal rights to explain those reasons publicly and to express them to FlightPrep. My reasoning my be nonsensical, but that has no legal relevance here.
 
I can understand being disappointed that this happened, but I cannot see how getting angry at a company that has only done what many other companies do in this country on a daily basis is constructive.

Point taken.
 
Yeah some offer they made. Give us money or else we will take you to court for money even though you have none.
We have no idea what offer was extended. From the RunwayFinder posting all we know if that they were initially notified and that the plaintiff wanted to discuss under NDA, which is typical and normal. RunwayFinder then chose to ignore the plaintiff so a lawsuit was filled. Sort of sounds like they f'ed up a little.
 
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