Flight School Issues

Isn't it obvious?

She's not refunding because she doesn't have the money. Small claims will do no good. Flying it off in 6 months will do no good, beause she won't be there. Or maybe the airplane won't be if the owner gets sick of yet another late payment. Fly it off real soon, and preflight very carefully.
 
MAKG1 said:
Isn't it obvious?

She's not refunding because she doesn't have the money. Small claims will do no good. Flying it off in 6 months will do no good, beause she won't be there. Or maybe the airplane won't be if the owner gets sick of yet another late payment. Fly it off real soon, and preflight very carefully.
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Best answer yet.......:thumbsup:
 
Never ever again do this pre-paid business. Most of these pre-paid and "get your PPL in 2 weeks" is a scam. First try speaking to the owner and show her the written document you have stating about the refund within 12 months.
Second write to her and cc the Attorney General of your state requesting for a refund. You can send one to the Attorney General or just simply cc it; you don't have to really send it. In most cases these people get scared and oblige. I don't think you broke any contract, it looks like this owner decided to pull a fast one and just updated the website. This is the heights of cheapness. Can you please share with us the school name, so many over here can avoid this thief?
 
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MAKG1 said:
Isn't it obvious?

She's not refunding because she doesn't have the money. Small claims will do no good. Flying it off in 6 months will do no good, beause she won't be there. Or maybe the airplane won't be if the owner gets sick of yet another late payment. Fly it off real soon, and preflight very carefully.
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N801BH said:
Best answer yet.......:thumbsup:
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Even though they might want you to get another checkout if it's been > than some amount of time, as long as you can solo you can take their planes for some of your practice time. I'm sure there will be times when your current FBO will have their planes booked when you want to fly.

You'll get some benefits during training that way. An alternative is the one I, and others, mentioned already to rent there after you get your ticket until the account runs out. But what's going to happen when you have $99 left in your account and you want a $100 burger? Will they want you to prepay again and keep a minimum balance?
 
Ron Levy said:
Because advising people to do otherwise in situations like this is like advising them to do brain surgery on themselves. I feel I know a lot about the law, but the most important thing I know about it is how important it is to know when to get a lawyer. In this case, if the OP really wants to know his legal rights, he's going to need a real lawyer.
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$400 isn't brain surgery, and suggesting hiring a lawyer for that amount is crazy.

This is a perfect small claims situation. I don't know if the flight school is entitled to keep the OP's money, but solving issues like this is one of the government services for which we pay taxes.

The OP needs to check with the JP in the Flight School's location for the exact procedure, but in general most small claims go like this:

1) Write a certified letter with return receipt to the school that ripped off the $400. Explain in civil terms why the OP feels he or she is entitled to a refund. Inform the school that the OP will file a claim in small claims court if an amicable solution cannot be reached.

In most small claims venues you can only recover actual damages, not 'pain and suffering' types of things.

2) If the school ignores the letter, or refuses to refund the money go see the clerk of the small claims court that has jurisdiction over the school's location, file a claim, pay a fee, schedule a court date.

I've filed a few small claims actions for small amounts like this in my life. Not one has ever actually gone to court.

Keep in mind that in most states a corporation must be represented by an attorney, and most small business are corporations of one sort or another.

For this reason it will be cheaper for the flight school to pay the $400 to the ripped off student than it would be to pay the attorney $400 to show up in court where the school might or might not prevail.

OP, don't let the flight school rip you off!

Edited to add: Here is how we do it where I live.
 
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MAKG1 said:
Isn't it obvious?

She's not refunding because she doesn't have the money. Small claims will do no good. Flying it off in 6 months will do no good, beause she won't be there. Or maybe the airplane won't be if the owner gets sick of yet another late payment. Fly it off real soon, and preflight very carefully.
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Wouldn't be the first time.
 
WoooPigSooie said:
Are you drunk?
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No, that's EdFred (when he is dressed as his alter ego, Nomex)

How ever you resolve the situation, it does suck that it happened. But be mindful that quite a lot of time and energy could get expended and not really resolve the situation.

It's in our emotional nature to want to teach the other party a lesson and in such a way as to make us feel good. Unfortunately, wisdom too often shows us they don't pay attention and the lesson is lost.

So best of luck to you and I hope it's resolved equitably.
 
Ron Levy said:
Because advising people to do otherwise in situations like this is like advising them to do brain surgery on themselves. I feel I know a lot about the law, but the most important thing I know about it is how important it is to know when to get a lawyer. In this case, if the OP really wants to know his legal rights, he's going to need a real lawyer.
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I am in rare disagreement with you on this one.

Small claims court is easy and relatively cheap. I have been there many times as a landlord and occasionally as an individual. The judge or referee is well versed in the law and in who has what legal rights; it is not necessary for plaintiff or defendant to hire a lawyer and it is not cost-effective. I think the OP's real decision is whether the hassle and the time he takes to go to small claims court, considering possible loss of wages, is worth the $400 that he has a high probability of getting back.

If I were the OP I would also complain to the BBB and I would name names here so that a future potential customer doing an internet search would be alerted to this company.
 
airdale said:
I am in rare disagreement with you on this one.

Small claims court is easy and relatively cheap. I have been there many times as a landlord and occasionally as an individual. The judge or referee is well versed in the law and in who has what legal rights; it is not necessary for plaintiff or defendant to hire a lawyer and it is not cost-effective. I think the OP's real decision is whether the hassle and the time he takes to go to small claims court, considering possible loss of wages, is worth the $400 that he has a high probability of getting back.

If I were the OP I would also complain to the BBB and I would name names here so that a future potential customer doing an internet search would be alerted to this company.
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Yep,

And don't forget to make mention of their bad business practices on yelp, google+ etc.
 
If you sue an individual in small claims court here in Texas you get a judgement, but these are very hard to collect. Essentially you have to record the judgement in as many court houses as you can and hope they eventually contact you to clear the judgement because you've messed up their credit report.

An operating small business is different. If the flight school is still operating and they don't pay their judgement you can send the sheriff out to seize property to pay the judgement. Suggest the Deputy take that nice pair of Bose Headsets in the display case. That will get their attention.
 
I lean toward Henning's position on this. You didn't really research what the refund policy was, and maybe there wasn't really one written. If they asked that you "pre-pay", I would interpret that as saying, ok, I think I'm going to fly 1.5 hours today, so I'll drop a check for 1.5 hours before I take off. Dropping $400 on account with no discount advantage makes no sense to me at all.

Just go fly it off with an instructor. You might even learn something on the flight.
 
Interesting thread. I've been going through the process of starting a small flight school with a 172M available for rent.

- Flights are paid for one at a time. No money up front is asked.
- Payment is collected immediately after the flight. Either via check or a credit card on file. Don't pay for the flight and you don't fly our aircraft again until it's resolved. Make a habit of it and we'll decline their business in the future.
- If someone doesn't rent an airplane from us in a 12 month period they have to redo the checkout
- Operations on grass is permitted
- Pilots can schedule the aircraft online 24x7 and have 24x7 access to go fly the aircraft.

It's really conflicting when you look at this from the business perspective. Margins are incredibly thin. I've tried to come up with a way to operate that ensures we don't lose our ass (every single fuel top off is charged immediately to my credit card by the FBO after the flight).

I don't like rules requiring people fly X often to rent from us but as an instructor I've seen how terrifying it is to have people who only log about 1 hour every 18 months really is. That's a very common pattern for a rental pilot...
 
jesse said:
Interesting thread. I've been going through the process of starting a small flight school with a 172M available for rent.

- Flights are paid for one at a time. No money up front is asked.
- Payment is collected immediately after the flight. Either via check or a credit card on file. Don't pay for the flight and you don't fly our aircraft again until it's resolved. Make a habit of it and we'll decline their business in the future.
- If someone doesn't rent an airplane from us in a 12 month period they have to redo the checkout
- Operations on grass is permitted
- Pilots can schedule the aircraft online 24x7 and have 24x7 access to go fly the aircraft.

It's really conflicting when you look at this from the business perspective. Margins are incredibly thin. I've tried to come up with a way to operate that ensures we don't lose our ass (every single fuel top off is charged immediately to my credit card by the FBO after the flight).

I don't like rules requiring people fly X often to rent from us but as an instructor I've seen how terrifying it is to have people who only log about 1 hour every 18 months really is. That's a very common pattern for a rental pilot...
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You should just rent it dry, worked great for my old place.
 
James331 said:
You should just rent it dry, worked great for my old place.
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I've considered that but the logistics of people having to wait on fuel each time (which sometimes can take a hour) really prohibit that. If we had self serve on field it'd be an attractive option.
 
I fail to see the issues here. You prepaid so for all intents and purposes that money has been spent for credit at the facility. It's not with a bank, or a casino so you can't cash back out.

I don't agree with the 4 week thing, I think 60 or 90 days makes more sense... however if 4 weeks is what it is then you're not going to change that. Go up with your instructor, since yours was booked for a month ask for a suggestion of other instructors you could use. During my training I went up with a total of 4 different CFIs so it's not strange.

So your only choice is really to use the $400 in credit you have remaining or walk away from it. If you do file with small claims I'm sure their rebuttal will be that they aren't preventing you from utilizing their services, they just require you to go up with an instructor given the delay all in their commitment to public safety. That would be my defense.
 
To update: I took the advice of a few here and went in to talk to them face to face. I explained that I felt they were in breach of contract since it says that prepaid accts are eligible for refund if requested within 12 months of deposit, which is the case, and again requested my money back.

They point blank told me that they can't afford it, and have already spent the money, but I can use it for credit towards a/c rental.

Small claims is $35 to file, and probably an easy $100 for a process server to serve the papers. More importantly is the time invested in this option, along with the real possibility of never seeing a dime and losing the flight time option. To those that think I wouldn't be awarded judgement, I strongly disagree. To me this is an easy case of commingling funds, as well as breach of contract.

However, I've decided I'm going to fly it off once I pass my check ride. They did agree that if it's within 30 days of passing my check ride, they will not require an instructor to check off. I'm going to make sure to be super diligent and thorough on that preflight though, since if that's how they run their business, what other short cuts are they taking?

I learned a valuable lesson that thankfully cost me very little. Thanks again everyone (sober or otherwise) for your feedback. This site is a wealth of information and full of some very bright folks.
 
Oh, you'll get the judgment. You just won't be able to collect on it. 'Cause this outfit isn't long for this world if they don't even have $400 in cash.

It's as I suspected. Preflight very carefully. These guys aren't going to spend any money at all that they think they can avoid.
 
MAKG1 said:
Oh, you'll get the judgment. You just won't be able to collect on it. 'Cause this outfit isn't long for this world if they don't even have $400 in cash.

It's as I suspected. Preflight very carefully. These guys aren't going to spend any money at all that they think they can avoid.
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I will take it one step further.....

The OP needs to get his license ASAP... There is a good chance they will be belly up sooner then he thinks..... IMHO...
 
N801BH said:
I will take it one step further.....

The OP needs to get his license ASAP... There is a good chance they will be belly up sooner then he thinks..... IMHO...
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I've been very sloooow about scheduling the oral and the checkride. Job, family, getting dark sooner, bla, bla, bla... If there's one thing this has done, it's motivated me to put it in high gear and finish quickly.
 
I would fly the credits off later - not worth burning a bridge in a small community regardless of who is right.
 
I would fly it now, with an instructor and move on but not raise a stink...

Because if $400 on a prepaid account is a big deal.. Then someone else will own it in a few months....
 
Mason said:
They are not long for this world. Try to fly it off soon, but as you stated, do a really good preflight.
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I'm confused on the 'Do a really good preflight' part. When would it be right for someone to 'do a half assed preflight'? Also, on this 'really good preflight' what would you be looking for that you don't normally?
 
Matthew said:
$400 might take you farther now than later.
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At $50/hr instructor rate...only if they fold shop. Which operating the way they are could happen tomorrow. The risk is they fold shop between now and a week after my checkride. The end result is the same thing as it is now. Money is gone.
 
Henning said:
I'm confused on the 'Do a really good preflight' part. When would it be right for someone to 'do a half assed preflight'? Also, on this 'really good preflight' what would you be looking for that you don't normally?
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Who said anything about a 'half assed preflight'? I'm not buying into your false premise.
You seem to be on a mission. Good luck to you Captain.
 
jesse said:
Interesting thread. I've been going through the process of starting a small flight school with a 172M available for rent.
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We have folks maintain $100 on account. When a Big City FBO mails us a ramp fee invoice from 40 days ago, we can easily track it back to a tail number and deduct accordingly. It's easier than tracking down every single payment.
 
WoooPigSooie said:
To update: I took the advice of a few here and went in to talk to them face to face. I explained that I felt they were in breach of contract since it says that prepaid accts are eligible for refund if requested within 12 months of deposit, which is the case, and again requested my money back.

They point blank told me that they can't afford it, and have already spent the money, but I can use it for credit towards a/c rental.

Small claims is $35 to file, and probably an easy $100 for a process server to serve the papers. More importantly is the time invested in this option, along with the real possibility of never seeing a dime and losing the flight time option. To those that think I wouldn't be awarded judgement, I strongly disagree. To me this is an easy case of commingling funds, as well as breach of contract.

However, I've decided I'm going to fly it off once I pass my check ride. They did agree that if it's within 30 days of passing my check ride, they will not require an instructor to check off. I'm going to make sure to be super diligent and thorough on that preflight though, since if that's how they run their business, what other short cuts are they taking?

I learned a valuable lesson that thankfully cost me very little. Thanks again everyone (sober or otherwise) for your feedback. This site is a wealth of information and full of some very bright folks.
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I wouldn't feel too great flying their aircraft after hearing that.

Do they have a pilot shop? Just take a headset or something.
 
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WoooPigSooie said:
Who said anything about a 'half assed preflight'? I'm not buying into your false premise.
You seem to be on a mission. Good luck to you Captain.
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Exactly, nobody does a 'half assed preflight' so what more would you do on a 'really good preflight' that you would not do on every other preflight? Get it yet? To say 'you need to do a really good preflight' here, implies that a regular preflight isn't really good. I'm just wondering what you would add to a 'really good preflight' that doesn't exist on your normal one.:dunno: I do the same thorough preflight regardless of the plane I get in.
 
Henning said:
Exactly, nobody does a 'half assed preflight' so what more would you do on a 'really good preflight' that you would not do on every other preflight? Get it yet? To say 'you need to do a really good preflight' here, implies that a regular preflight isn't really good. I'm just wondering what you would add to a 'really good preflight' that doesn't exist on your normal one.:dunno: I do the same thorough preflight regardless of the plane I get in.
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Nobody SHOULD do a half assed preflight, but lots of people do.

You cannot do a careful and thorough preflight in 10 minutes, but you'll find lots of claims that you can.

And do you really do a complete, thorough preflight of an aircraft your student just did? I've never seen an instructor do that. And the only instructors I've had watch mine after the first few flights I ever did have been CAP instructors.
 
MAKG1 said:
You cannot do a careful and thorough preflight in 10 minutes, but you'll find lots of claims that you can.

.
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Ok, I'll ask.

How long does your pre-flight take, and what do you do that extends it over 10 minutes?
 
MAKG1 said:
Nobody SHOULD do a half assed preflight, but lots of people do.

You cannot do a careful and thorough preflight in 10 minutes, but you'll find lots of claims that you can.

And do you really do a complete, thorough preflight of an aircraft your student just did? I've never seen an instructor do that. And the only instructors I've had watch mine after the first few flights I ever did have been CAP instructors.
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I don't have students.
 
JoseCuervo said:
Ok, I'll ask.

How long does your pre-flight take, and what do you do that extends it over 10 minutes?
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On a 172, 15-20, and it includes identifying key safety wires on control surfaces, looking over the engine compartment with a flashlight through the access holes, and actually checking tire pressures.

It's not enough to grab an aileron. You also check that it moves easily and correctly, moves the yoke properly, that the actuator is neither loose nor binding, and there are undamaged safety wires in all the hinges.
 
MAKG1 said:
On a 172, 15-20, and it includes identifying key safety wires on control surfaces, looking over the engine compartment with a flashlight through the access holes, and actually checking tire pressures.

It's not enough to grab an aileron. You also check that it moves easily and correctly, moves the yoke properly, that the actuator is neither loose nor binding, and there are undamaged safety wires in all the hinges.
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You forgot checking the counterweights are secure. And I can do all that in 7 minutes when I fly regularly.
 
warthog1984 said:
You forgot checking the counterweights are secure. And I can do all that in 7 minutes when I fly regularly.
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I take less than 15-20, and I doing those extra steps like checking fuel levels, water in fuel, and oil levels.

Everybody must do them differently...
 
Glad you walked in and dealt with it face to face. The signs are there though, burn it off and dont come back. I had a dispute with my CFI and had about $175 in my account. I started getting bombarded with nasty text messages and things like that for a $50 cancellation fee. The FBO had said it was okay and I didnt need to pay it (it was a family illness on a sunday after I had spent all day flying on friday and saturday spending of $3k ).

I was in the middle of buying an airplane and the FBO knew it. I switched airports, bought the airplane and parked it at the airport just up the road. They emailed and called a few times but I'm not going back. I left the $175 in my account. I never felt comfortable there anyway.

My new airport made me feel like a welcomed member, the maintenance shopped turned out to not be a bunch of dicks like I was used to seeing and have been extremely helpful and friendly. All around it turned out to be the best choice I could have made. I'm very happy.
 
gitmo234 said:
Glad you walked in and dealt with it face to face. The signs are there though, burn it off and dont come back. I had a dispute with my CFI and had about $175 in my account. I started getting bombarded with nasty text messages and things like that for a $50 cancellation fee. The FBO had said it was okay and I didnt need to pay it (it was a family illness on a sunday after I had spent all day flying on friday and saturday spending of $3k ).

I was in the middle of buying an airplane and the FBO knew it. I switched airports, bought the airplane and parked it at the airport just up the road. They emailed and called a few times but I'm not going back. I left the $175 in my account. I never felt comfortable there anyway.

My new airport made me feel like a welcomed member, the maintenance shopped turned out to not be a bunch of dicks like I was used to seeing and have been extremely helpful and friendly. All around it turned out to be the best choice I could have made. I'm very happy.
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Yep, there are things in life worth more than money. Sometimes the best thing to do is just walk away from it.
 
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