Flight School Issues

W

WoooPigSooie

Pre-Flight
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Messages
73
Location
Honolulu
Display Name
Display name:
WoooPigSooie
Here's my issue: I prepaid my account and now they are refusing to refund me almost $400.

I was soloing with their school and due to things (vacation, hurricanes) I took a short (4 week) break. When things cleared up I went online to the scheduler and scheduled a solo flight. The owner then called me and said he'd like me to go back up briefly with my instructor to get signed off. Ok, no problem, except my instructor was booked for a month solid.

I then went over to another school, found an instructor that day, and began soloing again almost immediately.

I sent the owner an email at the original school and asked for my money to be returned since I didn't know how long it would be before I took my checkride and was able to rent from them and use the money on my acct. She refused. Since then she has updated her website to add a no refund to prepayment policy.

Do I have any recourse here? Small claims maybe?
Get my certificate, suck it up and go rent from them until the money is gone?
Write it off?

I'm just baffled by business owners like this. I spent thousands of dollars with her company, and was set to spend thousands more once I got certified...and she is willing to lose all that potential revenue for $400, money that is technically mine to begin with. Blown away.
 
That is one reason so many recommend that you never pay in advance. Another is that flight schools go out of business, taking your money with them. Not the case here, but...

Best of luck. Sounds like you need to go use up that $400 and then never patronize them again.
 
Welcome to general aviation, a place that customer service has never known. If it ain't breaking your balls finish at the other school then rent off your $400. They are going to make you go up with a instructor again though, you ain't going to get a lot of post PP bang for your money. If you do end up renting it off work on your no flare nosewheel landings.:)
Seriously do whatever causes you the least stress or gives you the greatest peace of mind.
 
Ghery said:
That is one reason so many recommend that you never pay in advance. Another is that flight schools go out of business, taking your money with them. Not the case here, but...

Best of luck. Sounds like you need to go use up that $400 and then never patronize them again.
Click to expand...

Paying in advance was just about my only option. They wanted 6% on top for using a credit card, and were never around after my flight for me to pay a check.

My concern over just using it up in rental is I'm going to be so aggrevated about being forced to do business with them again I won't be focused on the flight(s). In that case I'd probably just need to rtb and walk away from it.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Welcome to general aviation, a place that customer service has never known. If it ain't breaking your balls finish at the other school then rent off your $400. They are going to make you go up with a instructor again though, you ain't going to get a lot of post PP bang for your money. If you do end up renting it off work on your no flare nosewheel landings.:)
Seriously do whatever causes you the least stress or gives you the greatest peace of mind.
Click to expand...

Even if it's 2 days after my checkride? Is that an insurance req. or your speculating about their hardball tactics?
 
WoooPigSooie said:
Even if it's 2 days after my checkride? Is that an insurance req. or your speculating about their hardball tactics?
Click to expand...
Speculating about the way most flight schools operate, no idea if it is an insurance requirement.
 
WoooPigSooie said:
Even if it's 2 days after my checkride? Is that an insurance req. or your speculating about their hardball tactics?
Click to expand...

The place I rented from required a checkout w/ a CFI anytime 90 days passed without you actively renting. They also screwed me over royally too.
 
Your question can be answered reliably only by an attorney familiar with your state's business and contract laws, with a copy of your contract with the FBO in hand. However, my guess is that $400 will just about cover your attorney's price to recover that $400, so you may be better off just writing this one off as a learning experience.
 
It's your money. Fly it off then take ur bidness elsewhere.
 
WoooPigSooie said:
Paying in advance was just about my only option. They wanted 6% on top for using a credit card, and were never around after my flight for me to pay a check.
Click to expand...

I would have walked right there.

I always encouraged students to pay cash, or get cash, but if I had to take a card it was just the cost of doing business.

I also never accepted prepay or block payments, I told my guys to always avoid it and that they'd never see it from me and not tolerate it from anyone else.



You best bet is to take it up with your card company, they probably can do a charge back or something.


Small claims is a PITA and a last resort IMO.

Oh yeah, ignore what Ron said, you're a idiot if you involve a lawyer in this matter, they have your money, they cant provide the service in a reasonable time frame, give the money back. Just common sense and doing the right thing.
 
Last edited:
James331 said:
I would have walked right there.

I always encouraged students to pay cash, or get cash, but if I had to take a card it was just the cost of doing business.

I also never accepted prepay or block payments, I told my guys to always avoid it and that they'd never see it from me and not tolerate it from anyone else.



You best bet is to take it up with your card company, they probably can do a charge back or something.


Small claims is a PITA and a last resort IMO.

Oh yeah, ignore what Ron said, you're a idiot if you involve a lawyer in this matter, they have your money, they can provide the service in a reasonable time frame, give the money back. Just common sense and doing the right thing.
Click to expand...

I prepaid with a check.

A lawyer isn't necessary since it's only $400 it can go to small claims for a small filing fee. A processor could be several hundred though..plus my time, etc.

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I'm pretty sure I'm just going to rent the remainder of the balance off.

I learned a long time ago in business that an unhappy customer is an opportunity to gain a customer for life. It just seems like simple common sense, but maybe that's the problem. Common sense isn't very common.
 
I'd vote with my feet and consider the lost $400 a reduced price lesson. Could have been worse.

Flight school owner forgot an important point in today's online world: A bad review posted on his Google+ page.

Keep the emotion out of it. State facts. Conclude with a polite "Thank you, but I will be taking my business elsewhere" and then let future customer's make up their mind that you're stating fact and not sour grapes. Short, to the point, factual.

While I don't let myself be held hostage to bad reviews (or threats of same), I will always do my best to never get to that point. I've learned the lesson that giving up a small sum when the customer makes a valid claim will pay off much bigger in the long run.
 
Ron Levy said:
Your question can be answered reliably only by an attorney familiar with your state's business and contract laws, with a copy of your contract with the FBO in hand. However, my guess is that $400 will just about cover your attorney's price to recover that $400, so you may be better off just writing this one off as a learning experience.
Click to expand...


That's bad advice. Not sure why you always suggest people go spend money on "experts" that aren't needed.
 
JoseCuervo said:
That's bad advice. Not sure why you always suggest people go spend money on "experts" that aren't needed.
Click to expand...
Because advising people to do otherwise in situations like this is like advising them to do brain surgery on themselves. I feel I know a lot about the law, but the most important thing I know about it is how important it is to know when to get a lawyer. In this case, if the OP really wants to know his legal rights, he's going to need a real lawyer.
 
Meh. He is in a blue state bet there is a free consumer advocate that would go medieval for him. Renting it off and quietly spreading the word, forever, is the easiest thing to do and the best 'revenge.'
 
Walboy said:
I paid in advance at the flight school where I got my commercial certificate in $1000 increments to get the max discount of 10%. I thought it was well worth it and would do it again. It's a busy flight school that has been around for decades. I might have second thoughts about doing it elsewhere though.

There's no one correct answer.
Click to expand...

Same here,I got several hours for free by leveraging the discount.
 
I would advise you to politely go into the facility, meet with the owner and state your position. Explain that you know that they added the "no refund" policy after you requested the refund. Explain that you are prepared to go to small claims, which will cost little to nothing. And point out that your only recourse seems to be small claims court, (where you will get your money back) and social media, which is even more powerful. Simply ask if the 400 dollars is worth the multiple, honest, yet bad review that will be arriving on google, yelp, bing, facebook, BBB, ...... If that does not get them to respond, then they will deserve the honest feedback that they will receive. Never feel bad about giving honest feedback so that others may avoid the same problem. You might even want to forward these posts to point out how quickly bad press can spread over the web. Let us know how it turns out.
 
DakotaGreg said:
I would advise you to politely go into the facility, meet with the owner and state your position. Explain that you know that they added the "no refund" policy after you requested the refund. Explain that you are prepared to go to small claims, which will cost little to nothing. And point out that your only recourse seems to be small claims court, (where you will get your money back) and social media, which is even more powerful. Simply ask if the 400 dollars is worth the multiple, honest, yet bad review that will be arriving on google, yelp, bing, facebook, BBB, ...... If that does not get them to respond, then they will deserve the honest feedback that they will receive. Never feel bad about giving honest feedback so that others may avoid the same problem. You might even want to forward these posts to point out how quickly bad press can spread over the web. Let us know how it turns out.
Click to expand...

Good advice......:thumbsup:


And if that doesn't work... Take your time till you do get some time in their plane... and head straight for the closest curb or any other thing sticking up and give their plane a nice "prop strike"..... ;);)...


Jus kiddin.......

Kinda..:rolleyes:
 
Wasn't there a similar situation and a similar thread for a place in Michigan not too long ago? Last year sometime?

I've never had a flight school or instructor ask me to pay up in advance.

Got a discount for keeping a credit card on file for automatic billing, but never in advance or before I signed the bill.
 
See my flight school used to give you a 15% discount if you paid in $1000 bulk payments. That cut the cost of my training by $1000. I did it and never had an issue. Sorry that you have.

They list the full costs of everything then apply the discounts. They do not add surcharges like that school seems too.
 
Last edited:
WoooPigSooie said:
Even if it's 2 days after my checkride? Is that an insurance req. or your speculating about their hardball tactics?
Click to expand...

Yes, in my experience it is an insurance requirement. The guy who founded ASA used to live in Juneau and came down to Seattle every once in awhile to rent an airplane....if it had been more than 90 days, he had to go up with an instructor. The insurance company does not care when you got your ticket, just that you have received the go-ahead from an instructor employed by the insured FBO.

Operating out of Boeing Field, you can imagine how many airline pilots were in town for training and wanted to take their family up for a ride....the kinfolks could never understand why his (it was always "his" in those days) pilot certificate was not adequate.

Bob Gardner
 
Yep, rent from them until the money is gone. Be glad that's your 'problem', lots of students have prepaid and had the school go under. Did the first school not have another instructor?
 
When you pre paid where you given a discount ,on the fees,for pre paying? If not fly off the money,usually pre paying is linked with a discount of a certain percentage. That may be why they figure they don't owe you any money.
 
frfly172 said:
When you pre paid where you given a discount ,on the fees,for pre paying? If not fly off the money,usually pre paying is linked with a discount of a certain percentage. That may be why they figure they don't owe you any money.
Click to expand...

That is exactly how my school worked. I gave them $1000 and they entered $1150 into my account balance. Then they just deducted their normal listed fees from that amount.
 
I don't know why anyone is saying walk away. I say fly it off. And if you have to spend a little more time with an instructor, try to find some benefit in it.
 
I say fly it off too. You aren't restricted to using one FBO or instructor.
 
I know at at least two of the schools nearby me here you can liquidate your "time" to other students for whatever you negotiate. I see the emails on the schools scheduler pretty frequently.
 
It isn't lost, that's good. Find out how long they'll leave it on your account before they figure you forfeit it. If you get your ticket well before it expires, great. You have $400 of rental on the way. Fly it off, grab a CFI and get some extra training on advanced topics, whatever.
 
Just simply ask the owner that since there was no refund policy in place and they were not able to meet your schedule if keeping the $400 is worth all of the publicity that they will get from every negavive review you can write about their practices on every web site, yelp, forum and aviation blog you can find.

I have been screwed a few times and for as much as I wanna do small claims, I never have. But I have spent an afternoon on line making sure that as many people as possible know to stay away!
 
Shawn said:
Just simply ask the owner that since there was no refund policy in place and they were not able to meet your schedule if keeping the $400 is worth all of the publicity that they will get from every negavive review you can write about their practices on every web site, yelp, forum and aviation blog you can find.

I have been screwed a few times and for as much as I wanna do small claims, I never have. But I have spent an afternoon on line making sure that as many people as possible know to stay away!
Click to expand...

I don't think he has generated any meaningful negative publicity. They aren't denying him the $400 in flight time he contracted for when he handed them the money. I'm not clear on why there was not just a change in instructors at the same school. The school said "No, you can't have your money back, but you can fly it off as you contracted." I don't think that the school has taken an unreasonable position in the least. I see no need for animosity toward the school nor the OP. He made a perfectly acceptable decision to change his training to something that worked better for him, but that doesn't have any effect on a contract he previously entered that the other party is still willing to honor.

The OP in this situation has no right to expect refund from the first flight school, they could choose to, but from what I have read here, I see no reason they should be considered obliged to or screwing him for not. They are amiable to him flying the plane to fulfill the contract.

What I read is a kid with a sense of entitlement and a business owner setting them straight on how things really work. If anything, I would be more inclined to rent from them reading this than less.
 
Henning said:
I don't think he has generated any meaningful negative publicity. They aren't denying him the $400 in flight time he contracted for when he handed them the money. I'm not clear on why there was not just a change in instructors at the same school. The school said "No, you can't have your money back, but you can fly it off as you contracted." I don't think that the school has taken an unreasonable position in the least. I see no need for animosity toward the school nor the OP. He made a perfectly acceptable decision to change his training to something that worked better for him, but that doesn't have any effect on a contract he previously entered that the other party is still willing to honor.

The OP in this situation has no right to expect refund from the first flight school, they could choose to, but from what I have read here, I see no reason they should be considered obliged to or screwing him for not. They are amiable to him flying the plane to fulfill the contract.

What I read is a kid with a sense of entitlement and a business owner setting them straight on how things really work. If anything, I would be more inclined to rent from them reading this than less.
Click to expand...

Wow. "A kid with a sense of entitlement." Because I am merely seeking a return of my own money?

Perhaps I should have provided a bit more info, and you should have been a little slower in conclusion jumping.

I was paying as I went for the first 10 hours or so, and getting the advertised rate of $80/hr dry for a 150. Then around that time, I had two flights back to back where she was not in the office and I was unable to settle my account. She called me everyday for the next 3 days over a +-$200 bill, and I informed her I would have been more than happy to settle it with her on the days after I flew, but she was unavailable. "I can't help it if your "cashier" isn't there during business hours."
At that point she requested that I prepay. Great. I did so. $1000 a couple of times, and $500 the last time. $400 of that last $500 are the monies in question. At no point did I enter a "contract" other than when I reserved the a/c.
I scheduled a solo after some dead time, she said she wanted an instructor to go up with me first, and mine was booked for a month. I guess I could have searched that school harder for another instructor, but that's irrelevant to the issue.
I emailed her that I had gone over to another school/instructor, but in the future would like to continue renting. At that time their policy was "if deposit on acct has not been used within 12 months it would not be eligible for refund, only rental credit." Asking her about that she said that's not how it was written, it was written to mean no refunds period. She has since changed the wording of the policy on the website to read that verbatim. Why change it if it was correct to begin with. If it did not read contrary to what I interpreted, why the need to change it? This is the part where I think I would win in small claims. Changing it from my signed agreement to something else after my grievance doesn't look good for her.

To others who have asked... I did not receive a discounted rate. I received the advertised rate, and there is not a club attached to the school.
 
Because you believe you should be able to renege on a contract. If you don't like what you got, you should have done your homework better. Learn your lesson and lick your wounds.
 
Henning said:
Because you believe you should be able to renege on a contract. If you don't like what you got, you should have done your homework better. Learn your lesson and lick your wounds.
Click to expand...

Reading comprehension much?

She reneged. She changed the policy after the request for refund which I was/am eligible for per the pilot agreement I signed. The new policy explicitly states no refunds ever. The one I signed said refunds elgible if requested within 12 months of deposit, which is the case here.
 
WoooPigSooie said:
Reading comprehension much?

She reneged. She changed the policy after the request for refund which I was/am eligible for per the pilot agreement I signed. The new policy explicitly states no refunds ever. The one I signed said refunds elgible if requested within 12 months of deposit, which is the case here.
Click to expand...

Do you have a copy of it? Make your choice, waste a bunch of time and effort to sue them or just fly the plane. You don't have a problem worth complaining about yet you are crying like someone banded your balls.
 
Henning said:
Do you have a copy of it? Make your choice, waste a bunch of time and effort to sue them or just fly the plane. You don't have a problem worth complaining about yet you are crying like someone banded your balls.
Click to expand...

Are you drunk?
 
Based on everything you have said, I wold fly off the balance on the account and then spread the word about their idiotic policy. Not having a cashier available, not being able to accept payments, then insisting on advance payments....no way Jose.
 
Mason said:
Based on everything you have said, I wold fly off the balance on the account and then spread the word about their idiotic policy. Not having a cashier available, not being able to accept payments, then insisting on advance payments....no way Jose.
Click to expand...

99% sure that's what I'm going to do. Irks me to no end, but as it is now the money is gone unless I want to invest more time and a little money into taking legal action. So since it's "gone," I might as well try to recoup something of value for it.
 
Ron Levy said:
Because advising people to do otherwise in situations like this is like advising them to do brain surgery on themselves. I feel I know a lot about the law, but the most important thing I know about it is how important it is to know when to get a lawyer. In this case, if the OP really wants to know his legal rights, he's going to need a real lawyer.
Click to expand...



No. It was stupid advice to go seek an attorney. A dozen better ways to work thru something like this that don't involve wasting time sitting around a faux-cherry wood conference table listening to an attorney ramble on while his billing meter is chugging along.

No one should ever be advised to an attorney without a previous dose of advice on "Managing Your Attorney". I have seen so many naive clients get horrible advice/help from an attorney because they didn't know how to manage their own attorney.

I have likely encountered a half dozen "sternly worded" letters from "expert" attorneys and toss them into the trash can. All the issues die at point, as attorneys don't like to continue working when the other side doesn't respond.

And for the OP's situation, not sure what help an attorney would provide. The most he could do is write a "sternly worded letter". Beyond that, depending on the state, likely the OP would be on his own at Small Claims. Which, if he wants to sue, all he has to do is wander down to the Courthouse and most courts have guides / staff that help fill out the forms and start the process. Judges in Small Claims courts are usually pretty patient working with the parties, they don't need to have previous consultations with "experts".

The OP is far better served with other advice than consulting an attorney.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top