Flight Review Question

NTT5418

NTT5418

Filing Flight Plan
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NTT5418
Hey guys!

New to the forum and had a question about my upcoming BFR. Bear with me if this has been asked to death...

My friend is a CFII and instructs for a flight school in Oklahoma, while I am just a 100 hr. PPL who rents an archer here and there when I am home from school in Texas. My question is, can I rent the archer for an hour, take my CFII friend and have him do the BFR or do I need to get it done by one of the FBO's CFI's? It sounds alright to me, but I'm not really sure of the legalities behind it and thought someone on here could shed some light on it for me.

Thanks!
 
You can legally accomplish your BFR that way, and if you say nothing to the FBO that rents the airplane to you, nothing will be wrong. xcept maybe..
Some,..no, most FBO/school/rental entities support their staff/facilities etc. on their instructors only doing such things, so to be upfront about it, you should ask the FBO first, but, that kinda depends on your relationship with your renter (airplane landlord).
 
It is legal, but it may be against the FBO's policies. Best course of action; just ask them. Of course, if you are current you and your friend could just go for a burger....
 
Thanks for the replies! I had a feeling that was the case. I'll contact the fbo, but I'm pretty sure they would want the revenue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
NTT5418 said:
Thanks for the replies! I had a feeling that was the case. I'll contact the fbo, but I'm pretty sure they would want the revenue.
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I'm sure they would, but if you're approved to rent it you're approved to take whomever you please along with you. I'd use the friend. The FBO is getting the rental revenue.
 
I typically ignore most statements that begin with "our policy is" if I determine that it conflicts with my policy on the same subject.
 
LDJones said:
I'm sure they would, but if you're approved to rent it you're approved to take whomever you please along with you. I'd use the friend. The FBO is getting the rental revenue.
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If you read the papers you sign when you rent the plane, you may find you are in breach of contract if you have an unapproved instructor give you training in the plane. There are a lot of legal/financial consequences to that if anything bad happens, and even if nothing bad happens, you are likely to be blacklisted at that FBO if they find out. Choose wisely.
 
wabower said:
I typically ignore most statements that begin with "our policy is" if I determine that it conflicts with my policy on the same subject.
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In this case, those policies are typically in the contract you agreed to as a renter.
 
When I rented, I never saw no steenkin' contract
 
Ron Levy said:
If you read the papers you sign when you rent the plane, you may find you are in breach of contract if you have an unapproved instructor give you training in the plane. There are a lot of legal/financial consequences to that if anything bad happens, and even if nothing bad happens, you are likely to be blacklisted at that FBO if they find out. Choose wisely.
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Who'd prove any "training" occurred if something bad happened and if it didn't why would it matter?
 
lol. I would never let an FBI dictate whom I use as a CFI.
 
It depends on the insurance company. If you or plane are covered under their insurance, they can dictate what they want.
 
LDJones said:
Who'd prove any "training" occurred if something bad happened
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Anyone who got hold of your logbook, for starters, and yes, it can be subpoenaed.

and if it didn't why would it matter?
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Because it could invalidate the FBO's insurance and/or subject the renter to subrogation and/or a lawsuit by the FBO as well as getting that renter blacklisted at that FBO (and any other ones that FBO knows -- yes, they do trade information on known bad actors).
 
SkyHog said:
lol. I would never let an FBI dictate whom I use as a CFI.
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I assume it was a typo and you meant FBO.

I've never heard of an FBO dictating who you use as a CFI. You're free to use any CFI you want.

OTOH, I have heard that FBOs do "dictate" who is allowed to instruct in the airplanes they operate.

You know, like you get to decide who's allowed to ride in your car?
 
midlifeflyer said:
I assume it was a typo and you meant FBO.

I've never heard of an FBO dictating who you use as a CFI. You're free to use any CFI you want.

OTOH, I have heard that FBOs do "dictate" who is allowed to instruct in the airplanes they operate.

You know, like you get to decide who's allowed to ride in your car?
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Imagine the day that Hertz tells you "You can't have certain people in your rental car."

The FBO is providing the plane to me. What I do with it, provided it is legal, is none of the G-D business. FBOs that have the "must file a flight plan" rule get an awesome flight plan that says I'm going somewhere else. If something happens, then "Oops, I diverted"
 
I guess I had the worry that I would be using their plane for "commercial" uses, even though I have been told that I don't have to pay my CFI friend.
 
How well does the FBO monitor their customers currency?

I see the potential for this scenario: next time you go to rent, FBO sees that your flight review has expired, asks to make a copy of your logbook for their records, notices that your review has been accomplished in their airplane without one of their instructors and they get ticked off.

It just depends what their policy is. I would just ask. It's really not worth ruining your relationship with them over a few hours of dual.
 
Ron Levy said:
Anyone who got hold of your logbook, for starters, and yes, it can be subpoenaed.

Because it could invalidate the FBO's insurance and/or subject the renter to subrogation and/or a lawsuit by the FBO as well as getting that renter blacklisted at that FBO (and any other ones that FBO knows -- yes, they do trade information on known bad actors).
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And if you had a mishap while flying with a buddy who happened to be a CFI, what exactly would your logbook say do you think??

This is bordering on the absurd.
 
SkyHog said:
Imagine the day that Hertz tells you "You can't have certain people in your rental car."
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No, it is more like "You are not allowed to have driving instructors conducting official driving licensing certification procedures in our rental vehicles"
The purpose is for liability. Accidents that occur in official training may only be covered when with a company instructor.
 
SkyHog said:
Imagine the day that Hertz tells you "You can't have certain people in your rental car."

The FBO is providing the plane to me. What I do with it, provided it is legal, is none of the G-D business. FBOs that have the "must file a flight plan" rule get an awesome flight plan that says I'm going somewhere else. If something happens, then "Oops, I diverted"
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The FBO is not dictating who you're flying with; they're dictating what type of flying activity you're doing. Flight instruction is a particular type of activity. Most FBOs will specific that flight instruction can only take place with approved instructors. If the OP wants to use his friend, he needs to have them approved.

I'm sure instructors like Ron Levy who specialize in intensive flight training run into this all of the time. Getting approved may be easy; it may be next to impossible without getting hired on by the FBO.

Along the same lines, at most FBOs, you would be prohobited from renting an airplane and using it to provide someone else with instruction (assuming of course you're a CFI).

Using the rental car analogy, rental car companies very much dictate what you do with their car. I was just reading through National's rental car agreement, which forbids use of their cars on non-paved roads (and no, it didn't make any exception for driveways).

If you don't like the FBO's policies, you always have the option of voting with your feet.
 
nosehair said:
No, it is more like "You are not allowed to have driving instructors conducting official driving licensing certification procedures in our rental vehicles"
The purpose is for liability. Accidents that occur in official training may only be covered when with a company instructor.
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Not quite. This was not primary training. I have no problem with them restricting student pilot use of their aircraft to their own instructors.
 
nosehair said:
No, it is more like "You are not allowed to have driving instructors conducting official driving licensing certification procedures in our rental vehicles"
The purpose is for liability. Accidents that occur in official training may only be covered when with a company instructor.
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Bottom line: You can't convince anyone who believes they have the right and privilege to do whatever they please regardless of the consequences to others.

Unless, of course, those consequences affect them.

Some people are just like that. Actually, we are probably all like that to varying degrees.
 
LDJones said:
And if you had a mishap while flying with a buddy who happened to be a CFI, what exactly would your logbook say do you think??

This is bordering on the absurd.
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Believe what you want. The question was asked and answered, and there are legal consequences when you violate legal contracts and get caught.
 
It doesn't matter what's logical.
It doesn't matter how you think it SHOULD be.

What matters is in the agreement you signed or the policies you agreed to when you rented the airplane.

I've been on the FBO side of this, and you can be sure that the insurance coverage for those airplanes covers the airplane only when an approved instructor is giving training or an approved pilot is flying the airplane and not giving or getting instruction. It's not unusual to require the plane to be flown from the left seat only unless there's an approved CFI flying or another formal process to get checked out to fly right seat. When I stopped being an employee of the flight school I lost my teaching privileges in their airplanes. I can still fly from the right seat because I've been checked out to do so (but I have to renew that periodically)

If you think it's stupid, you're free to rent your own airplane out under your own policies, and put those stupid folks out of business.
 
FBOs get insurance deals based not only on volume but, also by monitoring quality of their CFIs and currency of their member pilots as much as possible. Their contracts plainly state their policies and those pilot policies are a big part of what enables them to offer certain products at certain prices.

Although they may totally comply with FAA standards, customer pilots that deviate from contract policies are a liability to both the FBO and also to the other pilots paying for those facilities.

I prefer an FBO whose pilot currency/training policies are the same as the FAAs but they are rare.
 
SkyHog said:
Imagine the day that Hertz tells you "You can't have certain people in your rental car."

The FBO is providing the plane to me. What I do with it, provided it is legal, is none of the G-D business. FBOs that have the "must file a flight plan" rule get an awesome flight plan that says I'm going somewhere else. If something happens, then "Oops, I diverted"
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Nick, your anti-authoritarian attitude is very telling. Is there something you want to talk about?
 
You are PIC. You rented the airplane as PIC for a BFR.
You are PIC. You will not be called on to do anything that you already don't know. You will be asked to demonstrate PPL skillz. No instruction takes place. A BARF* requires a check pilot to ride along and grade.

You do PPL maneuvers to show you are a PPL. No instruction. Just a check. Put it in your logbook and enjoy!


If you don't mark it as dual it ain't instruction.


JMPO, Chbris









*Bi-annual-review-of-flight. I think the FAA needs a sense of humor!
 
Hiperbiper said:
You are PIC. You rented the airplane as PIC for a BFR.
You are PIC. You will not be called on to do anything that you already don't know. You will be asked to demonstrate PPL skillz. No instruction takes place. A BARF* requires a check pilot to ride along and grade.

You do PPL maneuvers to show you are a PPL. No instruction. Just a check. Put it in your logbook and enjoy!!
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You can certainly do that if you want, but it will not be a flight review for the purpose of 61.56 if you do. By regulation, the flight review requires at least one hour of flight training, which means training received in an aircraft in flight from an authorized instructor, logged as such and signed by the flight instructor.

OTOH, you can log all the "BARF's" you want without an instructor's signature, but those would not count for any FAA purpose.
 
It's interesting how we try to engineer exceptions to regulations and then there are plain gaps or contradictions in others.

America is the land of law. We have more laws than any other land. Does that make us any better?
 
Jaybird180 said:
It's interesting how we try to engineer exceptions to regulations and then there are plain gaps or contradictions in others.

America is the land of law. We have more laws than any other land.
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I'm not sure the second part is true. I recall an article some years back during the early days of about the space station on the difference between the astronauts and cosmonauts. The US group was found to be more compliant with the rules than the Russian group. The author's view was that the Russian regulations were so strict and detailed that there was less respect for them than the looser US regs.

As I indicated earlier, I wholeheartedly agree with your first point.
 
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