Flight into unknown icing

Have you seen the stats on IR pilots who fly VFR into IMC? Its not good at all. Or is that what you mean by "limitations"?

Two things, I said proficient pilot on an IFR flight plan, I should have said VMC into IMC, I'll change that, but it was pretty clear if you read the whole sentence what I was getting at ( or maybe not, I'm definitely not an English major). Second, the limitations are weather and recent experience, I had to scrub a training mission today because it was 300 ft ovc then 400 VV 1 mile to 1/2 mile fog, that's a no go for me ( and my instructor) and should probably be for most private pilots, it brought on a good discussion of personal minimums and why landing with a 300 ft ceiling and 1 mile vis might be legal, but probably not sane for any but the most proficient professional pilot crews with the right equipment.

I definitely am not saying inadvertent VFR into IMC is any way a safe thing, even for an IR pilot.
 
Salty, hand flying in instrument conditions is a perishable skill, it deteriorates with time. Being good under a hood years ago with an instructor at your side does not mean you won't death spiral in while in actual now alone. It is a bad to even think of it as a back up plan to get out of the clouds. There are too many dead pilots who have not survived VFR into IMC.

Your post I responded to, specifically the sentence " I think that sufficiently breaks the "you're going to die in 3 minutes" fallacy." is a dangerous thought to have in your head as a VFR pilot, time and time again it's been proven wrong for pilots who have paid the ultimate price. But enough of that.

As to your original post, in your last sentence, you contradict yourself a little, you say, to paraphrase, a small to substantial delay is no problem, then say but if there is a chance of a delay you would rather not do it.

I think that chances are pretty good you would get up there and back without an issue if the weather cooperates, which you should be able to figure out as you get close to the date you want to go. I say if the weather looks good AND you can tolerate a delay if things don't go as planned, do it . If you need to be on a tight schedule and the weather is questionable for your timeframe, then don't do it. Avoid ice and freezing at all costs. Avoid VFR into IMC at all costs. It's as simple as that.

I'll also say this, get your IFR ticket. I'm in the process now and I'll tell you, I fully understand how and why people start and stop. It has been a humbling experience for me, but it has been great too. Things are clicking now and it is a great way to fly. It takes the VMC into IMC issue out of the picture (with limitations, by being proficient and on an IFR plan) and makes trips like yours more doable and less stressful. Flying into the clouds is a unique experience, it's tough to describe relying on your ability to read the instruments to keep the airplane under control, but it's pretty cool and well worth the effort.
You missed the point. The point is that if I could fly as a student under the hood for an hour, with little to no help, changing altitudes and directions, it really disproves the "you're gonna die in 3 minutes" in my mind. That's all. Not saying I want to fly in IMC, or that IMC isn't dangerous, or that with no other training I can fly in IMC 10 years from now. Nothing more than what I said.

And you didn't read what I said about delay very closely either. The trip is intended to be a short one, but I can accept a delay if necessary. But IF it's "almost certain" that I will be delayed, then I don't want to put myself in that position. Nothing I said indicates that I would be unwilling to accept a delay. It's pretty clear that I just don't want to put myself into a situation where a delay is nearly certain to occur. Not only is it not a contradiction, it's smart planning.
 
You missed the point. The point is that if I could fly as a student under the hood for an hour, with little to no help, changing altitudes and directions, it really disproves the "you're gonna die in 3 minutes" in my mind. That's all. Not saying I want to fly in IMC, or that IMC isn't dangerous, or that with no other training I can fly in IMC 10 years from now. Nothing more than what I said.

And you didn't read what I said about delay very closely either. The trip is intended to be a short one, but I can accept a delay if necessary. But IF it's "almost certain" that I will be delayed, then I don't want to put myself in that position. Nothing I said indicates that I would be unwilling to accept a delay. It's pretty clear that I just don't want to put myself into a situation where a delay is nearly certain to occur. Not only is it not a contradiction, it's smart planning.

And you missed my point Salty, all is good though, I hope you get to do your trip.
 
Thanks. Still haven’t decided yet.
 
The Air Safety Institute video about VFR into IMC was put on YouTube in 2016. I’m not sure when it was made, but the crash it discusses was in 2006 so it can’t be older than that. The statistic they quote in the video is that 1/3 of VFR into IMC accidents involve instrument rated pilots. The pilot in the video was a commercial pilot with 1,000 hours but no instrument rating. He actually made a 180-degree turn but then crashed because the IMC behind him was just as deadly as the IMC ahead of him. In short, better pilots than you with more complete training than you have have been killed by thinking that they were better equipped to survive doing something foolhardy. It doesn’t matter who you are or what foolhardy thing you are thinking about doing, this statement is true for everyone.

So don’t do that. But do take the trip. You’ll learn a lot, you’ll laugh, you’ll cry, and you’ll post pictures here to make the rest of us jealous that you have the opportunity to do it.
 
Have you seen the stats on IR pilots who fly VFR into IMC? Its not good at all. Or is that what you mean by "limitations"?
What stats?. . .pretty sure my inadvertant penetration of a cloud in night VFR didn't make it into FAA "stats" - because they're aren't any. The OP is rational, willing to limit risk, but not fanatical about it.

Speaking of fanatics, I have a real hard time seeing a FAA "hazardous attitude" revealed in his posts - but I do discern some "drank the Kool-aid" responses.

The point isn't to be safe as possible - the point is to fly, and expand your limits a bit. Flying only in near perfect VFR is good training to fly only in near perfect VFR. Yeah, sure, get some actual with a CFII, maybe the IR, learn a bit about freezing levels, etc.

But a willing VFR pilot can learn and maintain the skill to do a 180 in IMC if need be, without raining down in bloody chunks - as an emergency "out", not as a routine event, agreed.
 
What stats?. . .pretty sure my inadvertant penetration of a cloud in night VFR didn't make it into FAA "stats" - because they're aren't any. The OP is rational, willing to limit risk, but not fanatical about it.

Speaking of fanatics, I have a real hard time seeing a FAA "hazardous attitude" revealed in his posts - but I do discern some "drank the Kool-aid" responses.

The point isn't to be safe as possible - the point is to fly, and expand your limits a bit. Flying only in near perfect VFR is good training to fly only in near perfect VFR. Yeah, sure, get some actual with a CFII, maybe the IR, learn a bit about freezing levels, etc.

But a willing VFR pilot can learn and maintain the skill to do a 180 in IMC if need be, without raining down in bloody chunks - as an emergency "out", not as a routine event, agreed.
I think you're mis-reading my tone (now that I re-read my message, I can see why, as I wasn't clear) but I wasn't being serious, and I'm in agreement with you. The OP (I'm sure) will be fine: he isn't displaying hazardous attitudes, and safe 180s in IMC are not reserved for instrument rated/current pilots only. To say a 180 is a "bad backup plan" (as someone did earlier) for a VFR pilot flying into a cloud... I would ask, "What is the plan?" when a vfr pilot inadvertently flies into IMC?
 
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Straw man. Never said I couldn’t get spatial disorientation. Or that there is no difference between foggles and actual. But I do think the IR checkride is not a magic wand that allows you to live more than 300 seconds in IMC.

To bring the thread back to the beginning, I already accepted that icing was not a real issue. I have no intentions of getting into IMC. I’m just very cautious, and like to think through the possibilities

You know how it is on this board... Nothing but severe clear is safe, even when instrument rated, until you have at least a King Air.
 
So I decided to go. Made my longest single leg flight 676 miles in 4.3 hours. Burned 46.2 gallons out of the 52 available. Stuck waiting for clouds to lift at my destination..........
 
So I decided to go. Made my longest single leg flight 676 miles in 4.3 hours. Burned 46.2 gallons out of the 52 available. Stuck waiting for clouds to lift at my destination..........

So you landed with about .5 hours of fuel left?

Waaay too close for comfort, at least for this old pilot. Especially if you were IFR.
 
So you landed with about .5 hours of fuel left?

Waaay too close for comfort, at least for this old pilot. Especially if you were IFR.
Vfr. I almost stopped at my backup, 20 minutes earlier, but the weather was good so I continued on. I wouldn’t want to stretch it any further.
 
So I decided to go. Made my longest single leg flight 676 miles in 4.3 hours. Burned 46.2 gallons out of the 52 available. Stuck waiting for clouds to lift at my destination..........
Take home points? Things might do differently? That’s close for my comfort too!!! Waiting for clouds to lift with low fuel had to feel a Bit tight!
 
No. I’m on the ground waiting for clouds to lift at my final destination.
 
No. I’m on the ground waiting for clouds to lift at my final destination.

Start working on your IR Salty, I'm working on mine, been a good time to do it, I have lots of actual now and it's challenging, but a blast, I think you'll like it.
 
Good work on the trip so far. Pictures or it didn’t happen.
 
Well if you’re VFR only than you really don’t need to worry about flying into icing conditions. :confused:

Yeah, Yeah, there’s those rare instances where it can happen, but if you stay VMC you’ll be aye okay.

That.

Well minus avoiding freezing rain/mist/fog/UP, and being cautious of getting frost or anything on your wings while you’re on the ground.
 
So after a good night sleep I have an observation.

I still don’t like flying up here this time of year. Probably because most of my experience is on Florida, I don’t find thunderstorms to be as difficult to deal with as the giant sky of gray. At least with thunderstorms you can weave around them and worst case land somewhere for a few hours until they burn themselves out. But getting stuck on top (or even worse below) a solid cloud layer is harder to deal with.

My destination was fine all afternoon, I called the airport and they said come on in, but it had improved later in the day as the forecast said, so no harm in waiting. I’m just not comfortable with the dual proposition of either getting stuck above or dropping through a hole in a region with mountains (even if they are baby mountains).
 
Another stresser for genuine marginal (vs foggles) weather flying is you will now be encountering carb icing.
 
Another stresser for genuine marginal (vs foggles) weather flying is you will now be encountering carb icing.
Oh, I totally forgot about that. I did have a minor case of that. Noticed a bit of roughness, looked at the jpi and it showed 9 F, pulled in the heat and stumbled worse and got better.
 
ok, Florida trained vfr only pilot here. Thinking about a trip to Ohio in a few weeks. It would be a short trip, one day up, one or two days there, one day back.

I can handle planning around convective weather ok, but have no experience with icing other than to utterly avoid going anywhere near the possibility of it.

Is it folly to try to take such a short trip to that locale during that time of year under these circumstances? If I get “stuck” for a few days, or a week, no big deal, I understand the reality of weather, but the plan is to come right back, if it’s nearly certain I’ll get delayed or will be unduly dangerous, I don’t want to do it.

My comment would be ... which part of East Ohio. There is an East/West line that runs roughly through Canton, OH. North of Canton, your into what I roughly call "lake effect" ... I'm making terms up, so no need for the geniuses of the group to correct my terminology. For the several years I lived in Canton and flew both my 172 and Velocity, much of the winter was a no-fly zone. I worked for Timken at the Research Center which is directly across the street from the airport. My boss new on a clear-sky winter day, I'd take a half day to go flying. Mid-to-late November is when the bad weather would generally set in. Stay South of Canton and your odds improve. If you definition of "East Ohio" is suburbs of Cleveland, I'd be a bit more careful.

As a note, I'm VFR only and think you are being wise with concern about something new to you.
 
So after a good night sleep I have an observation.

I still don’t like flying up here this time of year. Probably because most of my experience is on Florida, I don’t find thunderstorms to be as difficult to deal with as the giant sky of gray. At least with thunderstorms you can weave around them and worst case land somewhere for a few hours until they burn themselves out. But getting stuck on top (or even worse below) a solid cloud layer is harder to deal with.

Near the Great Lakes it can be pretty low and gray with abundant icing in cloud from around Nov 1 to April 15 or so. With an IR clouds are no trouble but icing is in a non FIKI plane, sometimes limiting you effectively to VFR during ice season.
 
Back home alive. Ironically my worst weather issues were in southern Georgia this afternoon. Only got delayed one day due to weather up there.

C7438617-300E-4A29-AE37-5DF1E490FB2D.jpeg 495F8D16-EBCD-42CF-B9D0-B72CF1D0763B.jpeg
 
Even with crappy winds I made the flight in less than 8 hours door to door. Faster than a commercial flight, after factoring travel time to airports and waiting for security and flights. Maybe not much more expensive either with no rental car or parking costs.
 
...If I get “stuck” for a few days, or a week, no big deal....
This is the attitude that's necessary in order to survive GA flying. Good job!
 
message received. My first ever flight with foggles on (as a student pilot still) I managed to do multiple 180's, ascending and descending, for more than an hour without needing help from my instructor. I think that sufficiently breaks the "you're going to die in 3 minutes" fallacy. But again, I don't disagree with the dangers inherent.
What breaks "you're going to die in 3 minutes" is that it's based on a misinterpretation of the study that "statistic" came from.

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...field-crash-of-pa32.88767/page-4#post-1982923
 
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