Flight Following Without Radar Services

Direct C51

Direct C51

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Direct C51
The organization I fly for is going to be implementing a policy which will require flight following for the duration of all flights. We fly almost exclusively VFR, and often times must fly at low altitudes because of weather and other factors, which of course gets us a lot of "Radar services terminated, squawk VFR".

I asked what we are to do in the above case. The reply from my organization was to "request flight following without radar services, and give position reports every 15 minutes or so". This sounds to me like something that is going to get on the nerves of ATC. Is this a common practice?

I also asked about times when the TRACON or ARTCC is just too busy to handle a VFR flight. They said to give position reports to anyone who would listen, such as a class C or D tower, or even a FSS. Would this even be recorded or would they just be giving us a roger and forget about us?

I believe it to be good policy to always be under flight following WHEN CONDITIONS ALLOW, but to make it policy to always have flight following seems like something that cannot be reasonably complied with at all times.
 
I have not had success getting flight following when I was flying too low for them to pick me up on their radar.
 
Can't you accomplish the same thing by giving position reports to the FSS?
 
In the area I fly and I believe throughout the US flight following is available if the work load ATC is under allows it. On a small number of occasions I have requested flight following and ATC was too busy to give it to me, or my planned altitude(2000 ft) was too low for them. I did not believe that ATC is mandated to provide flight following. I cannot they would be too receptive to me giving position reports if they are too busy handling other flights.

What is the organization worried about? Would just filing a VFR flight plan fulfill their needs?
 
How are they going to give you advisories if they only know where you are generally every 15 minutes?
 
acluffpoa said:
Can't you accomplish the same thing by giving position reports to the FSS?
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I don't know? Is this something the FSS would keep track of if you gave them? Also, we don't have VOR capability so unless there is a discreet receive and transmit freq over the VOR or an RCO, we can't get a FSS. That's leaves a good bit of real estate where we can't get a FSS.
 
Typical Army rule. We had a 15 minute "ops normal" FF requirement. If you're within the local area flight follow with base ops or your local flight ops. On the range, use range control. VFR cross country, use ATC until radar is lost. I've never heard of FF with approach after radar was lost. You can also bet if your low enough to lose radar, not so far down the road you're going to lose comms with ATC. I'd tell your SP that if they're that concerned about staying in contact, then utilize FF the way it originated. You contact FSS and make regular position reports. That's how FF got its name. Over time we've just carried on with FF when in reality it's called basic radar services. ATCs job isn't for SAR if you guys are over due or miss a report VFR while not in radar contact. That's the job of your flight ops people, or if on a flight plan, FSS.
 
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douglas393 said:
In the area I fly and I believe throughout the US flight following is available if the work load ATC is under allows it. On a small number of occasions I have requested flight following and ATC was too busy to give it to me, or my planned altitude(2000 ft) was too low for them. I did not believe that ATC is mandated to provide flight following. I cannot they would be too receptive to me giving position reports if they are too busy handling other flights.

What is the organization worried about? Would just filing a VFR flight plan fulfill their needs?
Click to expand...

Filing a VFR flight plan in addition is mandatory.

Yes Flight following is generally available. I am talking about the times when we are at 1000 ft under an overcast and they can't get us on radar. Which is also the kind of weather that gets ATC real busy with IFR flights and they can't always handle VFR flight following.
 
Direct C51 said:
The organization I fly for is going to be implementing a policy which will require flight following for the duration of all flights. We fly almost exclusively VFR, and often times must fly at low altitudes because of weather and other factors, which of course gets us a lot of "Radar services terminated, squawk VFR".

I asked what we are to do in the above case. The reply from my organization was to "request flight following without radar services, and give position reports every 15 minutes or so". This sounds to me like something that is going to get on the nerves of ATC. Is this a common practice?

I also asked about times when the TRACON or ARTCC is just too busy to handle a VFR flight. They said to give position reports to anyone who would listen, such as a class C or D tower, or even a FSS. Would this even be recorded or would they just be giving us a roger and forget about us?

I believe it to be good policy to always be under flight following WHEN CONDITIONS ALLOW, but to make it policy to always have flight following seems like something that cannot be reasonably complied with at all times.
Click to expand...

Flight following without radar services is a VFR flight plan.
 
McFly- You got that right, typical army rule by typical army pilots who know just enough to make themselves sound like amateurs on the radio. The ops normal isn't a problem when you have range radio or the military tower guys on the other end. They are trying to extend this rule for cross country flights and I just don't think civil ATC wants anything to do with non radar flight following VIA position reports.

I just wanted to know if this was a typical thing to do. I think it was a little far fetched when told to "make position reports to class C or D towers along the way, or even UNICOM if that's all you can reach." Surely no one would believe all of these facilities would coordinate this in any way.
 
roncachamp said:
Flight following without radar services is a VFR flight plan.
Click to expand...

Steven I was hoping to hear from you on this one. If TRACON or ARTCC gave a "radar contact lost, squawk VFR" and you said "request I flight follow with you VIA position reports" what would their answer be? Unable? Laughter?
 
Direct C51 said:
McFly- You got that right, typical army rule by typical army pilots who know just enough to make themselves sound like amateurs on the radio. The ops normal isn't a problem when you have range radio or the military tower guys on the other end. They are trying to extend this rule for cross country flights and I just don't think civil ATC wants anything to do with non radar flight following VIA position reports.

I just wanted to know if this was a typical thing to do. I think it was a little far fetched when told to "make position reports to class C or D towers along the way, or even UNICOM if that's all you can reach." Surely no one would believe all of these facilities would coordinate this in any way.
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We always tried to comply with the rule but on rare ocassions at low altitude on cross countrys, it just didn't happen. We were FF internally anyway so I didn't consider it a safety issue. You have paper rules and real world. Sometimes those who write the rules don't fully understand real world flying.
 
Velocity173 said:
Sometimes those who write the rules don't fully understand real world flying.
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We do single ship cross countries routinely so internal FF doesn't apply. I'm sure you can only imagine how difficult it was to get out of the mindset of 'multiship only XC'. I never understood why I could take a single engine piston Cessna out single ship but I need a wingman to fly when I have an advanced aircraft with 2 turbines on the sides.
 
Direct C51 said:
We do single ship cross countries routinely so internal FF doesn't apply. I'm sure you can only imagine how difficult it was to get out of the mindset of 'multiship only XC'. I never understood why I could take a single engine piston Cessna out single ship but I need a wingman to fly when I have an advanced aircraft with 2 turbines on the sides.
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Yeah we didn't do many VFR single ship X-county in the 60. We did a lot of single ship IFR X-country training though. Of course the FF comm requirement is automatically met in that case.

Also, don't you guys have BFT up and running? I would think that would suffice for the 15 min call. In HEMS I do X-country on every flight but I have a "big brother" type BFT tracking me.
 
Hmm, during my last cross-country, Oakland Center asked for my route over the Sierra and then informed me they would lose radar and radio contact approaching the pass, and I should squawk VFR on my own when that happened. Sure enough, after a certain point, I started to hear one-sided radio calls.
 
If they want you to give position reports to people who's job isn't to accept them and use FF in a way its not intended I'd be willing to bet your little club has all kinds of other little gems hiding in the rule book.

I think I'd make one last 'position report'...outta here!
 
Direct C51 said:
Steven I was hoping to hear from you on this one. If TRACON or ARTCC gave a "radar contact lost, squawk VFR" and you said "request I flight follow with you VIA position reports" what would their answer be? Unable? Laughter?
Click to expand...

I don't understand. Am I in the aircraft requesting flight following via position reports? I wouldn't do that.
 
roncachamp said:
I don't understand. Am I in the aircraft requesting flight following via position reports? I wouldn't do that.
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Sorry, poorly worded. In this scenario I am the one in the plane, you are the TRACON or ARTCC controller.
 
Captain said:
If they want you to give position reports to people who's job isn't to accept them and use FF in a way its not intended I'd be willing to bet your little club has all kinds of other little gems hiding in the rule book.

I think I'd make one last 'position report'...outta here!
Click to expand...

Unfortunately 'my little club' is the US Army. However this isn't an Army wide rule per se, it is a unit specific SOP.
 
Since you're an Army Aviator and this is an Army rule, you need to ask the Army how they want it done.

But there is no such thing as "flight following" from ATC without being where they can see you on radar. In the civilian world, position reports to FSS would be the norm for VFR aircraft outside radar coverage. If you can't talk to anybody, you've got a problem -- if you're that low, maybe you're where cell phone coverage exists and you can call 800 WX BRIEF and talk to FSS that way? :dunno:
 
Thanks guys, sounds like the general consensus is that this is a FSS function and not something for ATC.

Ron- Although this is an Army rule, it doesn't mean the Army guys making the rule know exactly what they are trying to implement. When questioned they told me to flight follow without radar through ATC. Just because we are Army doesn't mean we don't have to follow normal civil FAA conventions and rules. Sometimes we can take the handicaps afforded to us by local Army controllers for granted.
 
Sounds like the wrong people keep getting promoted.
 
A data point for you

From flying IFR in the area I find that I need 600-900 feet to get COM radio with fayetteville or raleigh approach and about 1500-2000 feet to show up on their radar.
 
EdFred said:
Sounds like the wrong people keep getting promoted.
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Maybe a little bit of the problem. Honestly the biggest thing is most attack pilots' hours come from deployments, training for deployments, or teaching at fort Rucker. They can have 4000 hours but almost no XC time. Most don't pursue civil flying. Being a test pilot, most of the instructor pilots, the ones making the SOP, don't listen to much of what I have to offer.
 
Direct C51 said:
The organization I fly for is going to be implementing a policy which will require flight following for the duration of all flights. We fly almost exclusively VFR, and often times must fly at low altitudes because of weather and other factors, which of course gets us a lot of "Radar services terminated, squawk VFR".

I asked what we are to do in the above case. The reply from my organization was to "request flight following without radar services, and give position reports every 15 minutes or so". This sounds to me like something that is going to get on the nerves of ATC. Is this a common practice?

I also asked about times when the TRACON or ARTCC is just too busy to handle a VFR flight. They said to give position reports to anyone who would listen, such as a class C or D tower, or even a FSS. Would this even be recorded or would they just be giving us a roger and forget about us?

I believe it to be good policy to always be under flight following WHEN CONDITIONS ALLOW, but to make it policy to always have flight following seems like something that cannot be reasonably complied with at all times.
Click to expand...

"Flight following" is the shorthand version of the real name, "Radar Assistance to VFR Aircraft," AIM 4-1-17. That's all you need to know in order to answer your question.

Bob Gardner
 
Direct C51 said:
Unfortunately 'my little club' is the US Army. However this isn't an Army wide rule per se, it is a unit specific SOP.
Click to expand...

Great, so;

A. I'm funding this absurdity, and
B. People comming up with this idea are in charge of our Army...or at least one unit.

Well, good luck out there and thanks for your service.
 
bobmrg said:
"Flight following" is the shorthand version of the real name, "Radar Assistance to VFR Aircraft," AIM 4-1-17. That's all you need to know in order to answer your question.

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...


Thanks Bob, I should have started with the AIM in the first place. Unfortuneatly we use the generic term "flight following" with our military controllers and range control to mean someone just monitoring us and waiting for a call every 15 minutes. I think someone is confusing this with Radar Assistance to VFR Aircraft.
 
Ron Levy said:
But there is no such thing as "flight following" from ATC without being where they can see you on radar.
Click to expand...
I have had flight following without being in radar contact. Arguably it's nor really "FF" since FF is technically a radar-based service, but, as they say, if it quacks like a duck...

In my case it was in the mountainous region between Idaho and Wyoming. I was anticipating the termination of FF but instead, after advising me me that radar contact was lost, the controller had me keep my squawk code and asked me to make position reports at various points along the route, at least while I was still in their sector.

It was a very pleasant surprise gift from Washington Center that day.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I have had flight following without being in radar contact. Arguably it's nor really "FF" since FF is technically a radar-based service, but, as they say, if it quacks like a duck...

In my case it was in the mountainous region between Idaho and Wyoming. I was anticipating the termination of FF but instead, after advising me me that radar contact was lost, the controller had me keep my squawk code and asked me to make position reports at various points along the route, at least while I was still in their sector.

It was a very pleasant surprise gift from Washington Center that day.
Click to expand...

Bouncing the VHF off the ionosphere? ;)
 
midlifeflyer said:
I have had flight following without being in radar contact. Arguably it's nor really "FF" since FF is technically a radar-based service, but, as they say, if it quacks like a duck...

In my case it was in the mountainous region between Idaho and Wyoming. I was anticipating the termination of FF but instead, after advising me me that radar contact was lost, the controller had me keep my squawk code and asked me to make position reports at various points along the route, at least while I was still in their sector.

It was a very pleasant surprise gift from Washington Center that day.
Click to expand...

Washington Center? Sounds more like Salt Lake City.
 
Direct C51 said:
Ron- Although this is an Army rule, it doesn't mean the Army guys making the rule know exactly what they are trying to implement. When questioned they told me to flight follow without radar through ATC. Just because we are Army doesn't mean we don't have to follow normal civil FAA conventions and rules. Sometimes we can take the handicaps afforded to us by local Army controllers for granted.
Click to expand...
No, but you can ask them how they want you to do that. If they have an answer for that, do what they say. If they don't know how they want it done (i.e., if they have no idea what they're asking you to do), then do whatever you please because they won't have any idea whether you're doing it "correctly" or not.
 
VFR FF is "as workload permits". Sequestration has started, IFR/airline flights are facing delays because fewer controllers are available to man the scopes.

Good luck getting flight following.

So what organization is changing their procedure to require it?
They can require you to ask for the service, but if you are denied due to workload, are you forced to land?

This seems like a very draconian requirement.
 
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