Flight Following Question

[Somedudeintn]

Hello Everyone,

I'm a fairly new Private Pilot and made my longest XC (KLZU-KDKX and back)to date yesterday. This was my first time using flight following and I did not ever recieve any traffic advisories. I did see one aircraft cross my path a few thousand ft below and was surprised that I did not hear anything about that traffic, even though it wasn't an issue.

I guess what I'm trying to figure out is what are the typical vertical and horizontal distances that traffic has to be to be advised of when using Flight Following?

 

[jpower]

In my experience it varies a lot. I've had controllers call out every bit of traffic, even if he's +/- 2k ft from my altitude, and I've had to prod other controllers to get direction of flight and speed info on traffic that I spotted close to me that they hadn't called. Once I was close enough to another aircraft that ATC asked, "Hey Nxxxxx, are you a flight of two?" Thankfully I saw him before ATC called that out.

 

[tngarner]

First welcome!!! I have found this forum to be a great resource... just don't bring up metal landing calculators.........

I fly in the ATL airspace too so great to know another pilot looking to learn is sharing it with me. I am based at RYY, we may have to hook up at some point at one of the restaurants at your field or mine.

In my experience, Atlanta Approach tends to only call traffic that is within 1,000 feet vertically and 2 miles. Not sure this is a rule or not but seems to be what I have experienced. I have done a number of flights that I never hear a traffic advisory. When I do they are usually fairly close and or converging.

The other thing to remember is watch for other traffic, since you are VFR it is best effort for them, so they are going to keep IFR traffic separated before they get to you. With that said the Atlanta Approach guys seem to be really good. I have heard them going a million miles and hour and still give me traffic advisories even when their airspace is a circus.

 

[bullwinkle]

20 minutes after getting FF the first time, I got a traffic call out for an aircraft that would have ended up being *very* close otherwise, I was very happy about that.

On the way home from the same trip, also on FF, I happened to look over my should and saw another airplane at my 4 o'clock flying a parallel course at the same altitude and at similar speed, 1/2 mile or less away. Never got a call out from ATC. I spotted him and it was all good, but if anything should get a traffic call out that should have.

It's highly variable as stated above; think of it more like an extra set of eyes on your flight instead of something infallable.

 

[SportPilotCO]

I do FF all the time in the Denver area. I have found that they call most traffic +/- 1000-1500 feet. We get a ton of commercial traffic descending as you approach Centennial and Front Range airports. They will occasionally call it out when flying into Front Range, even if it is several thousand feet high. I find Denver approach and Center to be very good about it. Colorado Springs approach is a real crap shoot. I guess they are a training facility and they seem to blow handoff's from Denver consistently and have missed some really close traffic. This reinforces that despite them providing advisories, you really have to keep your eyes open.


Carl

 

[bullwinkle]

In my experience, Atlanta Approach tends to only call traffic that is within 1,000 feet vertically and 2 miles. Not sure this is a rule or not but seems to be what I have experienced. I have done a number of flights that I never hear a traffic advisory. When I do they are usually fairly close and or converging.

That has been my experience with ATL, basically just enough time to look, put eyes on the target, and maneuver if needed. No time to dawdle in finding the traffic.

 

[Somedudeintn]

Thanks for all the helpful replies based on yalls experience and the welcome!

I was a bit nervous about FF for the first time, but it turned out not to be any big deal on the radios (although the controller did let me know that I diddn't need to throw out Kilo when i was letting him know what airports I was going to and from.) I was initially denied due to the controller being too busy, he just told me to call back in about 5 minutes. I'll be sure to keep my head on a swivel while I'm out there too as I don't want to get surprised by one of those "flight of two" calls!

 

[CTLSi]

VFR traffic is 'service as can' and if ATC is at all busy expect no help. Since VFR is also not flying marked airways most often (or you should avoid them unless you really want to see traffic) ATC flight following is really pretty needless. Plus, VFR is often flying pretty low unless over mountain areas, again, not a priority for ATC.

 

[MarleyW]

I think it also depends on the speed of the traffic, sometimes I fly through an approach path for SFO and they are advising me of 747s on descents like 10 miles away.

 

[roncachamp]

I'm a fairly new Private Pilot and made my longest XC (KLZU-KDKX and back)to date yesterday. This was my first time using flight following and I did not ever recieve any traffic advisories. I did see one aircraft cross my path a few thousand ft below and was surprised that I did not hear anything about that traffic, even though it wasn't an issue.

If the controller was also working that other aircraft there'd be no reason to call the traffic. The Mode C would have been verified and a few thousand feet vertically makes it a non-issue.

I guess what I'm trying to figure out is what are the typical vertical and horizontal distances that traffic has to be to be advised of when using Flight Following?

There are no established distances, traffic is issued when in the judgment of the controller their proximity warrants it.

 

[Twin_Flyer]

You must remember that the controller primary responsibility is IFR separation. They are not required to provide traffic to VFR flights. Do not anticipate that you will receive traffic calls, so if you receive them then great. You are VFR, so keep you head on the swivel outside the cockpit….

 

[airdale]

Hello Everyone,

I'm a fairly new Private Pilot and made my longest XC (KLZU-KDKX and back)to date yesterday. This was my first time using flight following and I did not ever recieve any traffic advisories. I did see one aircraft cross my path a few thousand ft below and was surprised that I did not hear anything about that traffic, even though it wasn't an issue.

I guess what I'm trying to figure out is what are the typical vertical and horizontal distances that traffic has to be to be advised of when using Flight Following?

My personal rule is to either file IFR or get flight following on any flight except something very local and even then I'll sometimes get FF.

My experience is consistent with what Steve said. Traffic calls are not based on rules so much as on what the controller thinks might be significant. A 1200 airplane maneuvering with unverified altitude might get called, for example, where the same airplane on a squawk with verified altitude will not. That's what Steve means when he says the controller is "working" the airplane -- the airplane is tagged up on the controller's screen and the Mode C is verified.

The distant 747 that MarleyW mentions may well have been called to advise him of a possible wake turbulence situation down the road, giving him time to take action.

Re comments on FF not being a priority for controllers that is officially/technically true.When I am getting FF, though, I have never felt that I am getting second-class service or that there might be traffic that will not be called. I suppose that if I were in an environment where the controller was saying "break" a lot, putting instructions for two or more airplanes into a single transmission, then I might begin to suspect he might not have time for 100% of my traffic calls. But that has never happened to me.

Don't worry about your radio procedures. As you participate with ATC and hear other pilots you will get better and better. One day you will check in with a controller and he will say will say to you: "Bugsmasher November 1234, verify you are VFR." Then you will know that you are sounding like a pro.

 

[charris911]

Houston Approach also, gives VFR obstacle advisories...great service, use flight following. Dont be intimidated, worst that can happen is if they are busy, they will cut you loose or not accept you....best will save you or someone else's life.

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

I flew an approach into Winder and than back to LZU today. The ATL guys are great. Zero issues with them.

I filed, but they still called traffic to me which I like. Slightly low, but already no factor for me. I was in the clouds a few minutes later.

 

[Jay Honeck]

With ADS-B traffic, it's now possible for us to see traffic before ATC, when we fly into Houston. I must admit that our confidence in flight following has sagged a bit, after seeing what they call, and what they don't call.

 

[write-stuff]

Here's a quick-and-dirty 2-pager that explains Flight Following:
http://www.goldsealgroundschool.com/library/flight-following.pdf

---

 

[Shawn]

You must remember that the controller primary responsibility is IFR separation. They are not required to provide traffic to VFR flights. Do not anticipate that you will receive traffic calls, so if you receive them then great. You are VFR, so keep you head on the swivel outside the cockpit….

THIS!...remember, FF is NOT a guarantee of traffic advisories. I was in the LA Basin in a swarm of planes and the controller had his hands beyond full and I had a LOT of traffic buz me that was much closer than I was comfortable with that was never called out by ATC. It is ALWAYS your responsibility to see and avoid as a VFR pilot even on FF!

I just added ADS-B out and having the traffic picture along with FF is a nice added situation awareness tool. I can usually see the traffic on my screen before ATC calls it out and get a visual quicker.

 

[roncachamp]

Houston Approach also, gives VFR obstacle advisories...great service, use flight following. Dont be intimidated, worst that can happen is if they are busy, they will cut you loose or not accept you....best will save you or someone else's life.

They're actually called called Terrain/Obstruction Alerts, and they're required of ATC everywhere. There's nothing special about Houston Approach.

 

[tlrussell]

First welcome!!! I have found this forum to be a great resource... just don't bring up metal landing calculators.........

I fly in the ATL airspace too so great to know another pilot looking to learn is sharing it with me. I am based at RYY, we may have to hook up at some point at one of the restaurants at your field or mine.

In my experience, Atlanta Approach tends to only call traffic that is within 1,000 feet vertically and 2 miles. Not sure this is a rule or not but seems to be what I have experienced. I have done a number of flights that I never hear a traffic advisory. When I do they are usually fairly close and or converging.

The other thing to remember is watch for other traffic, since you are VFR it is best effort for them, so they are going to keep IFR traffic separated before they get to you. With that said the Atlanta Approach guys seem to be really good. I have heard them going a million miles and hour and still give me traffic advisories even when their airspace is a circus.

No kidding..

 

[midlifeflyer]

Hello Everyone,

I'm a fairly new Private Pilot and made my longest XC (KLZU-KDKX and back)to date yesterday. This was my first time using flight following

You've gotten some good answers to your question.

My question, to no one in particular, is "Why wasn't this covered, and in fact done, during your student dual cross countries?" Seems to me to be a normal part of basic cross country flight training.

 

[Somedudeintn]

I agree that it would have been nice to have used and been taught this in my flight training. I went through a 141 program and was encouraged to use it on my solo xc's by the chief instructor, but since I never saw it in action decided to pass when I did those flights. I'm definitely planning on using it for my flights going forward.

 

[write-stuff]

I didn't mention it, but I'm 100% there with Mark. This is something that should have been included, quite heavily, in your training.

 

[Twin_Flyer]

You've gotten some good answers to your question.

My question, to no one in particular, is "Why wasn't this covered, and in fact done, during your student dual cross countries?" Seems to me to be a normal part of basic cross country flight training.

I agree it should be, but I'm seeing a lot of "training to the check ride" with the new pp I've spoken to, which is leaving items like FF for the freahly minted pp discover on their own...

That being said there is always the option of getting with your CFI and going over FF including a short xc.

 

[tngarner]

When I went through FF was required. Only time you did not have to is if you where only going to the practice area. Even then they encouraged you to request traffic advisories.

 

[thehulk06]

One of my first solo flights to a different airport and my instructor told me to use flight following and use frequency 124.xx...

I dialed up 124.xx and they said Cherokee xyz squawk 2234. I had zero clue what the hell they meant. I turned to frequency 122.34 and received no help from FF.

Got with in 10 miles of my destination and said to hell with ff. Switched over to 123.0 and instantly heard my tail number being called out asking if I was there by some guy at the airport I was flying into.

I explained that I was alright and was a student. It was then at that moment I realized my cfi was a douce bag.

 

[write-stuff]

One of my first solo flights to a different airport and my instructor told me to use flight following and use frequency 124.xx...

I dialed up 124.xx and they said Cherokee xyz squawk 2234. I had zero clue what the hell they meant. I turned to frequency 122.34 and received no help from FF.

It was then at that moment I realized my cfi was a douce bag.

Yes, a very unfortunately story. FF is a dialog with expected challenge/replies. You weren't born with the knowledge and your CFI, well, no further comment on him.

There is a lot more to FF than just traffic advisories. If you get lost, getting vectors from ATC should be in your bag of tricks and is really easy to do when you are already on FF. And if you have an engine out and have to put it down in a cow pasture somewhere, ATC is already dialed in on the radio and they have a pretty good idea on where you are. You don't have to waste time trying to describe your location.

 

[ARFlyer]

I'll get FF on any flight further then 50 miles. MEM Center is really helpful if your in the Hot Springs 128.47 sector.

However, if you try to get FF in south central AR forget about it. They refuse to talk to anyone lower then about 5000'. Something about having to get up and walk across the room to flip transmitters... I've had them fight with Fort Worth over who controls me if I'm IFR. One flight my IFR was cancelled by MEM. I was told if I still wanted it I had to ask Fort Worth, that he didn't have time to deal with me. Thankfully I was in clear skies on a training flight.

 

[Palmpilot]

...One flight my IFR was cancelled by MEM. I was told if I still wanted it I had to ask Fort Worth, that he didn't have time to deal with me. Thankfully I was in clear skies on a training flight.

My understanding is that you are not required to cease operating IFR just because ATC wants you to.

 

[midlifeflyer]

My understanding is that you are not required to cease operating IFR just because ATC wants you to.

Sounds like a misunderstanding to me.

Already on an IFR flight plan? I don't know of anything that allows ATC to cancel it on you. Suggest, cajole? Maybe. But the decision is yours, not theirs.

 

[petrolero]

Re comments on FF not being a priority for controllers that is officially/technically true.When I am getting FF, though, I have never felt that I am getting second-class service or that there might be traffic that will not be called. I suppose that if I were in an environment where the controller was saying "break" a lot, putting instructions for two or more airplanes into a single transmission, then I might begin to suspect he might not have time for 100% of my traffic calls. But that has never happened to me.

Agree. I've had pretty good luck with FF traffic callouts. I do think that as their workload increases they might only call out significant traffic; say within a few miles and converging, depending on whether they are talking to that aircraft or not. I agree with what others have said about the difference between a/c they are talking to.

On a recent IFR flight I had center call out a (very pretty) Cessna 210 that passed 1000 feet below me. They called me out to him as well and even issued us both the same altimeter settings just to be triple safe. I didn't see him until he was 2 miles from me but I had him on ADS-B. Both pilots verified that the other was level and we watched each other pass at about 370 knots closure. 'Twas cool. Solid work from the Denver Center controller. It was an IFR flight but I have heard them do this kind of thing for VFR guys also.

For FF in our practice areas, it can be helpful, but it is highly recommended to self-announce on 122.75 air-to-air and do clearing turns religiously. Practice areas are scary and it is tough for a controller to anticipate when another might begin a maneuver but they can often at least alert you that there is an aircraft nearby.