Flight following and Class Charlie airspace

WDD said:
Leaving a Charlie airport requires you get clearance / approval / mother may I by Clearance Delivery (and I hope the guy’s name is not Clarence) and a squawk code before you taxi.
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This depends very much on the airport. Some only issue the "instructions" by ground control to VFRs, reserving CD for IFR only. Others, treat everybody like an IFR departure as you describe. Absent some hint on the ATIS, etc... I usually do call CD first, but I've been told by a few to just make the request with ground.
 
FWIW, if the Tower says '[call sign] runway ## cleared for takeoff' and you say 'runway ## [call sign]' you have established two way radio communications and are good to go even if you have had no previous conversations with CD or Ground about it. Or whether or not the Tower gave you a squawk, heading, altitude or any other instruction. Is it ever going to happen this way? Nah. But like @flyingron said above, different places do things differently and ATIS usually gives you the game plan on how they do it there. I'm of course talkin C here, not B.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
Consider this when people talk about the VFR Class B clearance being implied. if you are on the the ground at the Class B primary airport and you call Clearance Delivery for VFR departure instructions, it will include "Cleared into Class Class Bravo" even though you are on the ground in the Class B.
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In that situation, I would have thought that the takeoff clearance would be sufficient by itself, because it's "an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area," and the tower is the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the class B surface area.

§91.131 Operations in Class B airspace.

(a) Operating rules. No person may operate an aircraft within a Class B airspace area except in compliance with §91.129 and the following rules:

(1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area.
​
 
You get a function code (local) or a computer assigned code (NAS) when leaving a C because traffic advisories are required in the C and the outer area. Now, are there rare cases where you might not have a controller keep you on the code while in the C? Yep. Just like there are times I’ve been terminated prior to leaving the outer area. What’s required to happen and what actually happens when dealing with ATC are sometimes two different things.

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luvflyin said:
FWIW, if the Tower says '[call sign] runway ## cleared for takeoff' and you say 'runway ## [call sign]' you have established two way radio communications and are good to go even if you have had no previous conversations with CD or Ground about it. Or whether or not the Tower gave you a squawk, heading, altitude or any other instruction. Is it ever going to happen this way? Nah. But like @flyingron said above, different places do things differently and ATIS usually gives you the game plan on how they do it there. I'm of course talkin C here, not B.
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Well, since you'd have to call ground to get to the runway most likely, it isn't.

The one exception I guess is if you taking off immediately after landing. Amusingly, I have done this at IAD (Class B) and didn't think about whether I needed another clearance.
 
flyingron said:
Well, since you'd have to call ground to get to the runway most likely, it isn't.

The one exception I guess is if you taking off immediately after landing. Amusingly, I have done this at IAD (Class B) and didn't think about whether I needed another clearance.
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Didn't say ya didn't call ground. Just said ya didn't have a conversation about the C with them.
 
Palmpilot said:
In that situation, I would have thought that the takeoff clearance would be sufficient by itself, because it's "an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area," and the tower is the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the class B surface area.

§91.131 Operations in Class B airspace.

(a) Operating rules. No person may operate an aircraft within a Class B airspace area except in compliance with §91.129 and the following rules:

(1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area.
​
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But yet they do.
 
Palmpilot said:
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that.
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I didn't think you were.

But I do think "cleared for takeoff" (along with, I guess, "cleared to land" from a position outside the Class B) is only the most obvious implied Bravo clearance, and not necessarily the clearance the regulation is referring to. Besides, there is great value to a consistent SOP on both sides of the mic.
 
Here's a question for ya that's kind of related.

The airports I fly out of are under a class B shelf. I often hear while on flight following "cleared into the class bravo surface area." And of course sometimes just "cleared into the class bravo."

I was flying with an instructor recently to get familiar with a new plane, and this instructor is under the impression that if you hear "cleared into the bravo" but he doesn't explicitly say "cleared into the bravo surface area," then you can only enter a class B shelf but have to remain clear of the class B to the surface. I had never heard of that before.

Is this true?
 
Never heard this. Sounds like an OWT. Bravo is Bravo.
Ask him to provide the regulation stating such.

Tim
 
luvflyin said:
Didn't say ya didn't call ground. Just said ya didn't have a conversation about the C with them.
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You never need a conversation with ATC "about the class C" to fly in it.
 
M1tchell said:
Here's a question for ya that's kind of related.

The airports I fly out of are under a class B shelf. I often hear while on flight following "cleared into the class bravo surface area." And of course sometimes just "cleared into the class bravo."

I was flying with an instructor recently to get familiar with a new plane, and this instructor is under the impression that if you hear "cleared into the bravo" but he doesn't explicitly say "cleared into the bravo surface area," then you can only enter a class B shelf but have to remain clear of the class B to the surface. I had never heard of that before.

Is this true?
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He's full of crap. First off, "cleared into the surface area" isn't standard phraseology. It's unknown why you're even hearing it. Cleared into the class Bravo covers the entire class B. If ATC wants to restrict your movement further, they will tell you.
 
Departing from BOS VFR, CD will tell you "cleared out of the Boston Class Bravo at xxxx, squawk etc etc". That might be a Bostonism.

I used to do a lot of flying around the northeast VFR in a PC-12, and I would always verify that I was cleared into the B if ATC didn't explicitly say so, sometimes much to their chagrin.
 
M1tchell said:
Here's a question for ya that's kind of related.

The airports I fly out of are under a class B shelf. I often hear while on flight following "cleared into the class bravo surface area." And of course sometimes just "cleared into the class bravo."

I was flying with an instructor recently to get familiar with a new plane, and this instructor is under the impression that if you hear "cleared into the bravo" but he doesn't explicitly say "cleared into the bravo surface area," then you can only enter a class B shelf but have to remain clear of the class B to the surface. I had never heard of that before.

Is this true?
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The instructor is wrong and using surface area makes no sense at all. Technically the controller does have to add “airspace” or “as requested” though.

561C931C-3E29-4FBB-9BCD-EA7B776378ED.jpeg
 
M1tchell said:
Here's a question for ya that's kind of related.

The airports I fly out of are under a class B shelf. I often hear while on flight following "cleared into the class bravo surface area." And of course sometimes just "cleared into the class bravo."

I was flying with an instructor recently to get familiar with a new plane, and this instructor is under the impression that if you hear "cleared into the bravo" but he doesn't explicitly say "cleared into the bravo surface area," then you can only enter a class B shelf but have to remain clear of the class B to the surface. I had never heard of that before.

Is this true?
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No
 
M1tchell said:
Here's a question for ya that's kind of related.

The airports I fly out of are under a class B shelf. I often hear while on flight following "cleared into the class bravo surface area." And of course sometimes just "cleared into the class bravo."

I was flying with an instructor recently to get familiar with a new plane, and this instructor is under the impression that if you hear "cleared into the bravo" but he doesn't explicitly say "cleared into the bravo surface area," then you can only enter a class B shelf but have to remain clear of the class B to the surface. I had never heard of that before.

Is this true?
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I would say that he is a very mis-informed flight instructor.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I didn't think you were.

But I do think "cleared for takeoff" (along with, I guess, "cleared to land" from a position outside the Class B) is only the most obvious implied Bravo clearance, and not necessarily the clearance the regulation is referring to. Besides, there is great value to a consistent SOP on both sides of the mic.
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We don't have consistency, because IFR is already treated as an implied bravo clearance when your route takes you into that airspace. The same arguments that support that practice would also apply to this situation, maybe even more so, and I think the FAA would have a tough time making the case for a violation.

Does the controller's manual specifically instruct CD to tell VFR aircraft "cleared into class bravo" for departures from the primary airport, or is it just something they do (perhaps because pilots of departing VFR expect it)?
 
M1tchell said:
Here's a question for ya that's kind of related.

The airports I fly out of are under a class B shelf. I often hear while on flight following "cleared into the class bravo surface area." And of course sometimes just "cleared into the class bravo."

I was flying with an instructor recently to get familiar with a new plane, and this instructor is under the impression that if you hear "cleared into the bravo" but he doesn't explicitly say "cleared into the bravo surface area," then you can only enter a class B shelf but have to remain clear of the class B to the surface. I had never heard of that before.

Is this true?
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In addition to what others have said, I have received possibly hundreds of VFR clearances through the SFO class B surface area, and not once were the words "surface area" used.
 
Palmpilot said:
We don't have consistency, because IFR is already treated as an implied bravo clearance when your route takes you into that airspace. The same arguments that support that practice would also apply to this situation, maybe even more so, and I think the FAA would have a tough time making the case for a violation.

Does the controller's manual specifically instruct CD to tell VFR aircraft "cleared into class bravo" for departures from the primary airport, or is it just something they do (perhaps because pilots of departing VFR expect it)?
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Note the “...out of Bravo...”

7−9−2. VFR AIRCRAFT IN CLASS B AIRSPACE
a. VFR aircraft must obtain an ATC clearance to operate in Class B airspace.
CLEARED THROUGH/TO ENTER/OUT OF BRAVO AIRSPACE,
 
Thanks for the replies, I hope I didn't hijack the thread but I thought it was kind of in topic.

Palmpilot said:
In addition to what others have said, I have received possibly hundreds of VFR clearances through the SFO class B surface area, and not once were the words "surface area" used.
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I have definitely heard "cleared into the class bravo surface area" from the controllers here in Houston, I guess since they were being SO specific in saying that he assumed the clearance excluded the class B that is not the surface area. That was all news to me, but of course now it is confirmed fake news :tongue2:
 
M1tchell said:
Thanks for the replies, I hope I didn't hijack the thread but I thought it was kind of in topic.


I have definitely heard "cleared into the class bravo surface area" from the controllers here in Houston, I guess since they were being SO specific in saying that he assumed the clearance excluded the class B that is not the surface area. That was all news to me, but of course now it is confirmed fake news :tongue2:
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Nah, you didn't hijack it. The OP had long since been answered. And you were cool about it when you said "Here's a question for ya that's kind of related."
 
M1tchell said:
I have definitely heard "cleared into the class bravo surface area" from the controllers here in Houston, I guess since they were being SO specific in saying that he assumed the clearance excluded the class B that is not the surface area. That was all news to me, but of course now it is confirmed fake news :tongue2:
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Local ATC practice seems to vary from place to place. While the "surface area" specification is apparently not required, if they do include it, then I presume that the restriction must be followed per 91.123.
 
Palmpilot said:
We don't have consistency, because IFR is already treated as an implied bravo clearance when your route takes you into that airspace. The same arguments that support that practice would also apply to this situation, maybe even more so, and I think the FAA would have a tough time making the case for a violation.
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I don't agree. IFR you are "cleared" on a route. Everything you do is on a clearance, something you don't have VFR. It's explicit, not implied.

@luvflyin answered your other question.
 
GSDpilot said:
I get flight following when I leave KMKC, and they clear me through the KMCI Class B airspace to go directly north. When I am approaching Omaha's Class C, they do not ever directly say I am clear through the Class C airspace. I navigate around it, but am I clear if I am on VFR flight following or do they have to say specifically that I am clear through it?
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Hi.
You did the proper thing / procedure. You would need to confirm with the Controller before you enter C. There is huge misunderstanding that if establish contact / on FF you are cleared through all the airspace/s automatically, most of the time they will do that for you, but it's the pilot responsibility to verify and confirm.
 
bluesideup said:
Hi.
You did the proper thing / procedure. You would need to confirm with the Controller before you enter C. There is huge misunderstanding that if establish contact / on FF you are cleared thought all the airspace/s automatically, most of the time they will do that for you, but it's the pilot responsibility to verify and confirm.
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Incorrect.
 
bluesideup said:
Hi.
You did the proper thing / procedure. You would need to confirm with the Controller before you enter C. There is huge misunderstanding that if establish contact / on FF you are cleared through all the airspace/s automatically, most of the time they will do that for you, but it's the pilot responsibility to verify and confirm.
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If you're going to disagree with 65 posts worth of discussion why don't you cite a source?
 
midlifeflyer said:
I don't agree. IFR you are "cleared" on a route. Everything you do is on a clearance, something you don't have VFR. It's explicit, not implied.
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91.131 only says "an ATC clearance." It doesn't specify a particular type of clearance, other than it must come from "the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area." Yes, you're cleared when you're IFR, but that clearance often doesn't come from "the" facility that has jurisdiction for the B airspace you're going to enter. After the initial route clearance, one often doesn't hear "cleared" again until it's time to fly an approach, and that may not come until after entering (and sometimes even after subsequently exiting) the B airspace. It's at best implied, and not explicit in the regulations, that this all meets the requirement stated in 91.131.
 
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bluesideup said:
I wish you the best, at some point you will realize that you are INCORRECT. It may take a ride with FAA?
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See the difference?

§91.130 Operations in Class C airspace.

(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each aircraft operation in Class C airspace must be conducted in compliance with this section and §91.129. For the purpose of this section, the primary airport is the airport for which the Class C airspace area is designated. A satellite airport is any other airport within the Class C airspace area.

(b) Traffic patterns. No person may take off or land an aircraft at a satellite airport within a Class C airspace area except in compliance with FAA arrival and departure traffic patterns.

(c) Communications. Each person operating an aircraft in Class C airspace must meet the following two-way radio communications requirements...

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...4350c463&mc=true&node=se14.2.91_1130&rgn=div8

§91.131 Operations in Class B airspace.
(a) Operating rules. No person may operate an aircraft within a Class B airspace area except in compliance with §91.129 and the following rules:

(1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area.

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...4350c463&mc=true&node=se14.2.91_1131&rgn=div8
 
midlifeflyer said:
IFR you are "cleared" on a route. Everything you do is on a clearance, something you don't have VFR. It's explicit, not implied.
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True, as I understand it. I once was on an IFR flight plan from a grass strip not on the chart that cut through Memphis class B to KFYE. I was cleared via as filed from flight service via phone before takeoff. I flew over 400 miles and at the end, through part of Memphis Bravo and landed at KFYE and never heard the words "cleared into the Bravo" from Memphis approach. All I heard was cleared to KFYE as filed when still on the ground via phone. My approved flight plan cut through the Bravo. Was I in violation?

Edit: I should add that I was given altitude restrictions from Memphis approach, but the altitude that I was given still cut through the Bravo.
 
luvflyin said:
No. You had a Clearance
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This is as I understand it. This is the time I believe you don't have to hear the "magic" words "cleared into the Bravo." My filed flight plan that went through the Bravo was approved and I was given clearance to fly it.
 
Piper18O said:
True, as I understand it. I once was on an IFR flight plan from a grass strip not on the chart that cut through Memphis class B to KFYE. I was cleared via as filed from flight service via phone before takeoff. I flew over 400 miles and at the end, through part of Memphis Bravo and landed at KFYE and never heard the words "cleared into the Bravo" from Memphis approach. All I heard was cleared to KFYE as filed when still on the ground via phone. My approved flight plan cut through the Bravo. Was I in violation?

Edit: I should add that I was given altitude restrictions from Memphis approach, but the altitude that I was given still cut through the Bravo.
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I believe Midlifeflyer and I are in agreement that the FAA regards an IFR clearance as sufficient to meet the requirement of 91.131(a)(1). The discussion he and I are having only relates to whether this is implied or explicit, and whether that has implications for whether a takeoff clearance from a class B tower would be sufficient by itself to meet the requirement.
 
Palmpilot said:
See the difference?

§91.130 Operations in Class C airspace.

(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each aircraft operation in Class C airspace must be conducted in compliance with this section and §91.129. For the purpose of this section, the primary airport is the airport for which the Class C airspace area is designated. A satellite airport is any other airport within the Class C airspace area.

(b) Traffic patterns. No person may take off or land an aircraft at a satellite airport within a Class C airspace area except in compliance with FAA arrival and departure traffic patterns.

(c) Communications. Each person operating an aircraft in Class C airspace must meet the following two-way radio communications requirements...

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...4350c463&mc=true&node=se14.2.91_1130&rgn=div8

§91.131 Operations in Class B airspace.
(a) Operating rules. No person may operate an aircraft within a Class B airspace area except in compliance with §91.129 and the following rules:

(1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area.

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...4350c463&mc=true&node=se14.2.91_1131&rgn=div8
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Arguable point. Once again the FAA blows itself out of the water using the AIM as a weapon against the FAR. Isn't the only instance of that.
 
luvflyin said:
Arguable point. Once again the FAA blows itself out of the water using the AIM as a weapon against the FAR. Isn't the only instance of that.
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What does the AIM say that contradicts the regulations I quoted?
 
Palmpilot said:
What does the AIM say that contradicts the regulations I quoted?
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3-2-3 d. 1. says operate in accordance with current IFR procedures. 2. then goes on to tell ya all about what to do if you're VFR. Like get an ATC clearance first.
 
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